Post-Game Talk: We suck - Leafs lose 4-1

[Gary Nylund]

It's true, winning percentage has been replaced by points percentage, but outside of the vernacular they both represent the same metric - the percentage of points earned out of the total pool available. Let's not get lost in the semantics when we all (well, almost all) understand the central point that records cannot be compared between the different OT point rule eras.

In our 105 point "record" season, our winning percentage was .640. Last year it was .688. By that objective measure, Dubas best regular season tops Lou's. Our record last year was aided by being in a weak North, and our 105 point season was equally aided by being in an even weaker Atlantic.

Does any of that ultimately matter? Off course not - who cares, but it's a strange and meaningless thing to brag about when building a case for Lou's greatness here.

Yeah almost all - I think you may be underestimating how many people there are who don't understand this. But I agree about the strange and meaningless part for sure, you can't call yourself a great team when you've never won a playoff round, period.

 

[Metroid]

Why do the Lou worshippers keep calling those who refuse to bend at his altar "Dubas cool-aid drinkers"? Who here has praised Dubas? Both were/are mediocre Leaf GMs. Grow up and learn to handle nuance.

Just like in real life it's now in sports
You like A, Must mean you hate B.
You're trying to see the good in C, means you hate D.
It's stupid. At this point who gives a f*** about what GM A has done or not done. GM B has his work cut out for him and maybe soon we will see GM C. Can't wait for the comparisons of all 3.

I just wanna see the leafs win. Whether GM B fixes something, or GM A comes back to make things worse or GM C comes in and tries his methods

 

[Kurtz]

No it's not.

This team is never what it was hyped up to be. Our defense is pure patchwork. Rielly is very limited as a #1D, Muzzin is unfortunately showing signs of decline, and Holl is trash and should be in nobody's top-4. Jack Campbell is the duct tape holding this disaster together (very evident last night). Sandin-Dermott as a bottom pair is a joke. Undersized, inexperienced, slow and unreliable. We needed another vet to replace Bogo but Dubas STILL doesn't have a f***ing clue how to build a proper D.

The forward group is honestly f***ing slow, where did all our speed go. We now have one of the slowest forward groups in the league, Carolina skated absolute circles around us. And they don't compensate with ANYTHING for the lack of speed either.

We really miss Mickey in the speed department. And it's shocking how bad Muzz has been this year...no one falls off that quickly...have to assume (or hope) that it's injury or maybe rust due to him unable to skate much due to last year's injury.

And yeah, Sandin's skating is pathetic.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

No it's not.

This team is never what it was hyped up to be. Our defense is pure patchwork. Rielly is very limited as a #1D, Muzzin is unfortunately showing signs of decline, and Holl is trash and should be in nobody's top-4. Jack Campbell is the duct tape holding this disaster together (very evident last night). Sandin-Dermott as a bottom pair is a joke. Undersized, inexperienced, slow and unreliable. We needed another vet to replace Bogo but Dubas STILL doesn't have a f***ing clue how to build a proper D.

The forward group is honestly f***ing slow, where did all our speed go. We now have one of the slowest forward groups in the league, Carolina skated absolute circles around us. And they don't compensate with ANYTHING for the lack of speed either.

People get mixed up in use of words .. to me talent means skill .. and we got skill .. but I agree with you team has lost a ton of speed not just with Mitch and Muzzy .. we looked like a rented mule compared to Canes who out skated us all over ice all game long .. Sandin's issues with lack of foot speed are well known to Keefer .. maybe they can't be fixed so no one talks about it anymore

 

[kevsh]

Next week they return home to face Vegas, Tampa and Boston.

They're already behind the "big 3" in their division, even with a slow start for the Bolts and the Bruins having 3 games in hand. So even if they turn things around soon it's an uphill battle the rest of the season just to rise above a wild card spot, which is no guarantee either. And the reward for that is getting one of those three in the first round.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Why do the Lou worshippers keep calling those who refuse to bend at his altar "Dubas cool-aid drinkers"? Who here has praised Dubas? Both were/are mediocre Leaf GMs. Grow up and learn to handle nuance.

I like how you make the same assumption that I worship Lou. I don’t care who you like as a GM personally. Next time be sure to include some context when you post stats like that, that’s what annoyed me. Otherwise you might as well be zeke.

 

[IPS]

People get mixed up in use of words .. to me talent means skill .. and we got skill .. but I agree with you team has lost a ton of speed not just with Mitch and Muzzy .. we looked like a rented mule compared to Canes who out skated us all over ice all game long .. Sandin's issues with lack of foot speed are well known to Keefer .. maybe they can't be fixed so no one talks about it anymore

Dubas needs to be fired ASAP and get a guy who knows what's up to start re-tooling this team because we still have good pieces. Every team can afford one or two bad contracts, we should be fine as long as we have someone who knows what they are doing. I don't think we can be re-tooled into a superb elite team, but we can be re-tooled into a team that could get hot at the right time in the playoffs and do real damage.

If these idiots are seriously going to run with this team going into the playoffs (granted we get in of course) then I don't even know what to say.

 

[Cpt Maple Leaf]

Most punchable face ever

 

[HamiltonNHL]

@HamiltonNHL In the GDT, you asked about where "skating distance" stat was tracked so I though I'd shed some light on it. The NHL has contracted a company to provide a lot more interactive data during broadcasts this year. There are sensors in pucks, on players and other stuff in arenas to collect this information that can be used by teams/broadcasts. It gives information such as players skating distance, speed, puck speed, puck distance in a pass, where players are on the ice, etc...

The company is located in Durham North Carolina and provides this information to each team's broadcasts (and national broadcasts), but I think it's up to the individual team broadcast to decide if they want to use this information, or how much of it they want to use (both for live feed, replays, and other graphics). My son works for this company so he basically gets paid to watch hockey games and then provide this information when a producer asks for it during the game. He has a different game/team that he has to cover from night to night so it's not 1 specific team. It seems that some teams broadcasts like to use this information more regularly than others.

I'm not sure how much of this information is then sent to each team after the fact for their own analysis, but I would assume they could get access to it if they so choose. I suspect some of the things they are trying out won't work out well and they'll come up with other things along the way.

EDIT: I think they intended to introduce it last season, but maybe Covid set that back.

NHL plans to deploy Puck and Player Tracking technology next season

Super Cool.

I think some of these metrics could be used to show Mitch Marner isn't making his best effort.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Dubas needs to be fired ASAP and get a guy who knows what's up to start re-tooling this team because we still have good pieces. Every team can afford one or two bad contracts, we should be fine as long as we have someone who knows what they are doing. I don't think we can be re-tooled into a superb elite team, but we can be re-tooled into a team that could get hot at the right time in the playoffs and do real damage.

If these idiots are seriously going to run with this team going into the playoffs (granted we get in of course) then I don't even know what to say.

Maybe. IMHO though, re-tooling now is about 400% harder then it would have been in the summer. The reason for that is that without moving a big contract, there's not much you can do that would have an impact. And since Marner is the obvious guy to move, you see the problem - his value has gone way down in the last couple of weeks to the point where moving him might not even make sense any more.

 

[Brown Dog]

Why do the Lou worshippers keep calling those who refuse to bend at his altar "Dubas cool-aid drinkers"? Who here has praised Dubas? Both were/are mediocre Leaf GMs. Grow up and learn to handle nuance.

Yeah, I don't consider myself a Dubas fan or a Lou guy--I'm a Leaf fan and just want the team to be successful regardless of who is in charge (or on the ice, for that matter).

In retrospect I wish they had kept Lou around because it's seems reasonable to conclude they'd be in a better place than they are now. Hard to imagine Lou would've been taken to the cleaners by the RFA crew as much as Dubas was and Lou certainly seems like he has a better grasp on how to build a competent team vs. a bunch of individuals.

That being said, it's hard to look that favorably on Lou's moves when he was in charge here. He failed to maximize the window opened by the Marner/Matthews ELC period, created a needless problem bringing in a washed up Marleau, handed out an ugly contract to Zaitsev, and jumped the gun with overpays at the deadline for Boyle and Plekanec in back-to-back years. He did good things too, of course (namely the Kadri and Rielly extensions), but you can't say it was a slam dunk he was on the right path or that we'd no doubt have more success had we kept him.

I think "mediocre" is the right word to describe his tenure here, which is probably generous but also takes into account that he wasn't given enough runway to really see his vision through.

 

[sparxx87]

@HamiltonNHL In the GDT, you asked about where "skating distance" stat was tracked so I though I'd shed some light on it. The NHL has contracted a company to provide a lot more interactive data during broadcasts this year. There are sensors in pucks, on players and other stuff in arenas to collect this information that can be used by teams/broadcasts. It gives information such as players skating distance, speed, puck speed, puck distance in a pass, where players are on the ice, etc...

The company is located in Durham North Carolina and provides this information to each team's broadcasts (and national broadcasts), but I think it's up to the individual team broadcast to decide if they want to use this information, or how much of it they want to use (both for live feed, replays, and other graphics). My son works for this company so he basically gets paid to watch hockey games and then provide this information when a producer asks for it during the game. He has a different game/team that he has to cover from night to night so it's not 1 specific team. It seems that some teams broadcasts like to use this information more regularly than others.

I'm not sure how much of this information is then sent to each team after the fact for their own analysis, but I would assume they could get access to it if they so choose. I suspect some of the things they are trying out won't work out well and they'll come up with other things along the way.

EDIT: I think they intended to introduce it last season, but maybe Covid set that back.

NHL plans to deploy Puck and Player Tracking technology next season

It was delayed because the puck wasn’t good. Players could feel a difference so it was back to the drawing board.

NHL pulls microchipped 'tracking' pucks six days into season - TSN.ca

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It was delayed because the puck wasn’t good. Players could feel a difference so it was back to the drawing board.

NHL pulls microchipped 'tracking' pucks six days into season - TSN.ca

Thanks!

 

[Varan]

Guaranteed something happens if they lose to the Hawks.

The Leafs biggest problem is effort. They just don't give a f*** and it is clear as day now. Those denying it are part of the coddling problem

 

[sparxx87]

Thanks!

Next will be the sticks. If they can find a way to bring new meaning to ‘pro series’ with some sort of membrane in the stick to not only measure contact points, but track them relative to the puck and other sticks, that would be a huge breakthrough.

Objective data collection is key. I like where they’re headed, it just might take a while.

 

[Brown Dog]

Guaranteed something happens if they lose to the Hawks.

The Leafs biggest problem is effort. They just don't give a f*** and it is clear as day now. Those denying it are part of the coddling problem

I doubt it. It's still very early without much to be gained by making massive changes now. The team gave a vote of confidence to this management group and coaching staff and they gave a vote of confidence to the core players. I think we're probably stuck with this group till the deadline at least.

 

[Trapper]

Maybe. IMHO though, re-tooling now is about 400% harder then it would have been in the summer. The reason for that is that without moving a big contract, there's not much you can do that would have an impact. And since Marner is the obvious guy to move, you see the problem - his value has gone way down in the last couple of weeks to the point where moving him might not even make sense any more.

IMO a new GM can change the inmates running the asylum. The GM can evaluate and take current year action on the team like Rielly (stay or go), do you keep Muzzin if injuries keep happening, looking for another goalie for the future or deciding on Campbell, etc. Evaluating or changing the coach.

A GM that has an identity that relates to real world playoffs slowly implemented over this season and not worry about standings currently. Maybe even drafting higher and addressing core in summer 2022 based on this year.

 

[RavenGuard]

Hindsight is great...

It's not hindsight though as the majority of people called that a horrible and unnecessary deal from day 1.

 

[forecheck]

You are correct. The sad part is they tuned out the tough coach and now they have tuned out the soft coach……..that’s a major statement about the mentality of the room .

The reason they have tuned out another Coach is because the over paid brats are running the show and they know it ... Dubas defers to them , no one holds them accountable ... The culture in Leaf land is a joke under this regime.

 

[Twine Tickler]

No it's not.

This team is never what it was hyped up to be. Our defense is pure patchwork. Rielly is very limited as a #1D, Muzzin is unfortunately showing signs of decline, and Holl is trash and should be in nobody's top-4. Jack Campbell is the duct tape holding this disaster together (very evident last night). Sandin-Dermott as a bottom pair is a joke. Undersized, inexperienced, slow and unreliable. We needed another vet to replace Bogo but Dubas STILL doesn't have a f***ing clue how to build a proper D.

The forward group is honestly f***ing slow, where did all our speed go. We now have one of the slowest forward groups in the league, Carolina skated absolute circles around us. And they don't compensate with ANYTHING for the lack of speed either.

I get the frustration, I really do. We all feel it, but there is no truth that this team is:

-Undersized, inexperienced, slow
-The forward group is honestly f***ing slow
-[Campbell] duct tape holding this disaster together

These are true statements for the last 3 games. But not what is true about the group itself.

We all see the same mess you do, but it's not like this team is unable to play the right way. There is more than enough talent on this team, and they all have shown the ability to play the right way already this year, just not consistently enough to align with the "Stanley Cup Habits" we need. I 100% agree there is a valid argument to be had that this inconsistency is something we've seen plenty before, and that there is no logic or reasoning to think it will ever correct itself.

At this current moment, they are battling themselves. Something we've seen so frequently with this group. And as a fan, it is the most frustrating thing to watch. There is reasonable logic to think they will never be able to exercise theses demons.

My belief in Mitch succeeding in Toronto is definitely the lowest it has ever been. I know I am not alone. He has shown far too often that he cannot filter out the noise (truth).

When we need him the most, he is at his worst. It has always been this way. I have complete confidence in him as a player, and that he will go on to having a great career, I just don't know if I can see it anymore in TOR. It's clearly too much for him. He truly looks lost out there right now.

I will also admit I have been 100% wrong before. I would have gladly accepted a Willy trade 2 off-season's ago. I was completely wrong on Willy. Almost to the exact extent I feel towards Mitch right now, I felt towards Willy 2 years ago. So too were a ton of people on here.

We all want blood after weeks like this. We all want some form of change. But there are a variety of reasons this doesn't usually happen.

1. Decisions made with even the slightest bit of emotion usually come back to haunt you

2. The value of the players this fanbase would like traded, Mitch specifically, could not be lower.

Like it or not, the decision was made to run it back this year. It's pretty dumb to abort less than 10% of the season into it. If the season is a write off, so be it. I'd rather miss the playoffs than be out in the first round again. At that point, we can make all the necessary changes and adjust the long-term vision of this club.

 

[SweLeafsFan]

Surely things can only get better now?

 

[egd27]

First of all...no he didn't. We were out of the playoffs for 3 years before Lou put us there - not a decade.

Secondly, a franchise points record is meaningless due to the OT point rule change.

Lastly, yes, playoff appearances but zero playoff series wins in 3 years is the definition of mediocre results. Not bad...not good. Mediocre.

Successive playoff appearances after dismantling the team to a dead last finish is mediocre? What a joke of a post.

 

[RavenGuard]

They needed to either sign them all to reasonable contracts or trade one of them. They did neither.
I wonder where they would be if they never signed Tavares and had Nylander at 6.5, Marner at 7.93 and Matthews at 8.934

IMO as an outside observer, if that had happened.......you're probably in the Finals at least once out of the past few seasons with a possible cup win.

No Tavares and those deals equals 17-ish million in cap space. You can do a LOT to your bottom 6 and D with 17 million.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Guaranteed something happens if they lose to the Hawks.

The Leafs biggest problem is effort. They just don't give a f*** and it is clear as day now. Those denying it are part of the coddling problem

Does effort = confidence, because I feel like that is the bigger issue.

They don't seem sure of themselves at all right now. Taking way too much time to think and then things go right past them.

I don't think effort has ever really been an issue with this team since Keefe has taken over. If anything, effort becomes more of an issue when they are playing well and get a little bit cocky.

But I know what it is like when you are giving 100% but you just mentally are not in it, and it doesn't really matter. You overthink things, and while you are working hard, you just lose the edge to be able get it done.

However, it is something the Leafs will need to get over if they want to win in the playoffs, and getting over it right now is a good test if they are capable of doing that. If not, and they are completely mentally broken, then changes the core are really the only choice at that point.

 

[Havoc]

Oilers Flames and Jets are a combined 10-3-2

Seeing as we skated circles around these guys even without Matthews.....there's hope??