Post-Game Talk: We suck - Leafs lose 4-1

[Throw More Waffles]

How in the world do you genuinely believe any GM, even on a bridge, would get those guys on those deals? Short of them being significantly worse players than they were, it was never going to happen.

It is easy to be pissed off when you create completely unrealistic expectations of reality. Those are not reasonable contracts; they are insulting.

Those numbers are the going rate for players of their caliber on bridge deals.

 

[Nineteen67]

Marner should have been bridged...but after his bridge expired this off-season he'd be a rfa coming off being 4th in the league in scoring, and he'd get paid either way this year. But he should have been bridged regardless (I said so at the time).

However Matthews was completely out of our hands. If we gave him that insulting $8m offer he'd get an offer-sheet for $14m/year from any number of American teams and we'd be screwed.

We’ll never know what a good GM would have done.

 

[Nineteen67]

Obviously the wrong ballpark...

Ballpark was fine. The Leafs just had the wrong pitcher.

 

[Havoc]

1. Tore the team to the ground including a couple of tough contracts to move
2. Established a "team above all" culture
3. Iced a roster with 7 rookies and ensured they were insulated with vets
4. Went from dead last to playoffs in one year (how often has that been done?)
5. Didn't inject himself as the "face" of franchise
6. By year 3 iced a 105 point team.....and toss out 5 of the SO wins if you want, it's still 100 points from dead last in 2 seasons

In short, was a low key professional that didn't feel the need to try and pontificate about process and inject himself to centre stage.

Dubas cleared out Kessel. If Kessel played some more games here you have to assume Matthews is bye-bye.

Lous job was easy. All he had to do was clear out Phaneuf. All the talent that carried the team to the playoffs (Matthews Marner Nylander and Hyman) was given to him.

You left out the one thing that made Lou worth having lol. We wouldn't have made the playoffs with Andersen. The assets to acquire Andersen were accumulated through prior trades. Some savvy work there.

The only downfall is one of the picks we traded turned out to be Max Comtois.


Andersen and clearing Phaneuf A+++. The rest isn't anything to really praise when you look into it further.


edit- should obviously say without Andersen

edit2- I forgot to shout out Burke for Kadri, Rielly, Bozak and JVR

 

[PROUD PAPA]

I'm not defending Tavares or anything here, but i always find it interesting how for years people complained that no one wanted to sign here, and then people actually want to sign here like a high profile name like Tavares, and people are like "well. it's his fault, he screwed up the cap, blegh blah bluee." and if he didn't sign here. the same bunch of people who are crapping on him now, would be crapping on him that he didn't just like a heck of a lot of you did with Stamkos. and if the management DIDN'T try going for Tavares you'd be pooping on them for NOT doing it. - give or take the small few who were consistent about not wanting him.

you can't have butter on both sides of your toast and expect a clean plate. the end.

the problem with this team is them bending over and doing every single thing that the young people on this team wanted. the end Whatever they want. management submits to them as if this team is Chicago or Pittsburgh and won something during their ELCs. they didn't.

Quite frankly, they should have bridged all of these guys. Nylander, Matthews, Marner. tell them they would get their paydays when they won/accomplished something. if they Subban it up, then great. pay them. they accomplished something. I get their hockey players and they arrogant or whatever but these guys have no respect for their opponent - if they did they'd show up and play on time. they wouldn't have an attitude of "well we're so damned good, we don't have to show up until like the third period, we can put on a show and entertain people." they don't want to do the things that ensure results. they want to make the fancy highlight plays. when people in the media rightly call on them, they give smart mouth answers like again - they've accomplished something - which. they haven't. minus like two people. (Jack Campbell and Jason Spezza)

They don't have respect for their fellow players. they don't have respect for this fanbase. (as a collective whole). they don't have respect for the management (because truthfully, most people WOULD have traded some of them but dubas had faith in them, and they respond by looking like utter poop the first several games of the season? way to pay that faith forward). So quite frankly, you can fire anyone you want. but until that all gets addressed nothing is going to change.

and the fact that we have to say this again about a version of the maple leafs is disgusting. and what's worse most of the people on this team now we've drafted. they are super talented. they don't eve have the "but man theyaren't really that good" excuse.

which is pretty much why im not bothering watching this team. because when you burn it all down, and basically end up with a more talented version of entitled crap that you had before. what's the point?

I am quoting this post because IMO it's pure gold and those late to this party could easily miss it and whether you agree with all, some or none of it, everyone should read it. I clicked all the way back to page 11 out of curiosity to see how many likes it had received. As it should, this post is doing well in the like department.
Thank you @Daisy Jane.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think most people thought that he was done here based on how it ended for him last season.

But I think it just shows how little spine the Leafs players have. Freddy let's in a horrible goal yesterday 3 minutes into the game. What does Carolina do? Sulk and give up? No they just continue to play their game and dominate the Leafs.

When Freddy let in a bad goal last year with the Leafs, it was like the whole team would deflate.

Yup. Great post! I'm so tired of hearing about how a softie goal here and there is why we never win in the playoffs. Like game 7 last spring, Jack lets in the only bad goal he allowed in the entire series and people are blaming him with the tired old "you can't let that go in" and "that put them behind the 8 ball" and "demoralizing effect" and all that BS.

If you have players who get the compete knocked out of them after one bad goal, you need to get new players, period. And guess what, that's exactly the situation we find ourselves in today.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Surely things can only get better now?

Sure they can. They can also get worse.

 

[Nineteen67]

Those numbers are the going rate for players of their caliber on bridge deals.

When Shanny decided to let Lou go, how many GMs would have salivated over the opportunity of starting out with Matthews Marner Nylander and Rielly and shit ton of cap space?

It was almost impossible to screw it up

 

[Azail]

Well as an Oilers fan that basically had a roster like yours last year, top heavy with sub par players filling out the roster I can 100% see exactly what $20 million in cap space to get legit bottom 6 players can do for the team. We'll see how the season goes for the Oilers but on the ice right now it's absolutely night and day. A competent bottom 6 is crucial in today's NHL.

Problem is not our depth. Our top heavy players are playing like depth. That is our problem. Just as it was last year in the playoffs.

 

[Kurtz]

1. Tore the team to the ground including a couple of tough contracts to move
2. Established a "team above all" culture
3. Iced a roster with 7 rookies and ensured they were insulated with vets
4. Went from dead last to playoffs in one year (how often has that been done?)
5. Didn't inject himself as the "face" of franchise
6. By year 3 iced a 105 point team.....and toss out 5 of the SO wins if you want, it's still 100 points from dead last in 2 seasons

In short, was a low key professional that didn't feel the need to try and pontificate about process and inject himself to centre stage.

1. There wasn't much to tear down by the time he got here - that job was already done. The last and frankly only major piece to move was Kessel, and he was dealt a month before Lou got here. Maybe Phaneuf, I guess...credit to him there although we didn't get much back.
2. How so? No beards? What kind of flimsy culture did he really establish here if it fell apart the moment he left?
3. That's a standard rebuild team - rookies and old vets. Don't get me wrong, I loved the Matt Martin acquisition, but there was hardly genious at work in putting that together.
4. Last to playoffs is good - that was the impact of adding Matthews and Marner and a legit goalie. We saw similar results with Chicago and Pitt, when you can add two superstars to your roster you can improve quite quickly.
5. This is a meaningless statement prima facie.
6. This is the same as point 4.


I was looking more for specifics rather than vague generalities like team culture and not injecting himself as the face, etc. For example, his good moves were Freddy, Naz/Morgan contracts, Phaneuf dump, Martin signing (this one can go in the bad category, but I loved it). His bad moves were Marleau, Zaitsev contract, throwing away 2nd rounders on Plekanec and Boyle. Also, and maybe most importantly, his drafts were garbage (outside of the Matthews gift) - but maybe you can pin that on Hunter.


Maybe I'm missing some other significant moves, but overall that's the body of work of an average (mediocre) GM.

 

[Azail]

Yup. Great post! I'm so tired of hearing about how a softie goal here and there is why we never win in the playoffs. Like game 7 last spring, Jack lets in the only bad goal he allowed in the entire series and people are blaming him with the tired old "you can't let that go in" and "that put them behind the 8 ball" and "demoralizing effect" and all that BS.

If you have players who get the compete knocked out of them after one bad goal, you need to get new players, period. And guess what, that's exactly the situation we find ourselves in today.

It's fairly obvious on this board who only watch the Leafs play. If they watched other teams they would see every single goalie let's in bad goals.

Hell even last year in the playoffs against Montreal, Price let in bad goals/let us come back from behind in the last few minutes of games. But then Montreal gets a 2-0 in overtime against Campbell and they score. And then people have the audacity to say Price out goalied us hahaha. Give me a break.

 

[myleafs]

So bizarre. Nothing wrong with admitting he sold you. He’s done it to a number of very smart people. He’s a master snake oil salesman.

A snake oil salesman knows he is duping you. I don't believe Dubas is doing that. I think he really believes in his vision ala staking his career on it.

 

[ottomaddox]

Hard to believe The Mods have allowed this thread title.

The fans are bitter...

 

[sparxx87]

A snake oil salesman knows he is duping you. I don't believe Dubas is doing that. I think he really believes in his vision ala staking his career on it.

Touché. I think you’re right.

His ignorance is by far the biggest problem.

 

[Havoc]

1. There wasn't much to tear down by the time he got here - that job was already done. The last and frankly only major piece to move was Kessel, and he was dealt a month before Lou got here. Maybe Phaneuf, I guess...credit to him there although we didn't get much back.
2. How so? No beards? What kind of flimsy culture did he really establish here if it fell apart the moment he left?
3. That's a standard rebuild team - rookies and old vets. Don't get me wrong, I loved the Matt Martin acquisition, but there was hardly genious at work in putting that together.
4. Last to playoffs is good - that was the impact of adding Matthews and Marner and a legit goalie. We saw similar results with Chicago and Pitt, when you can add two superstars to your roster you can improve quite quickly.
5. This is a meaningless statement prima facie.
6. This is the same as point 4.


I was looking more for specifics rather than vague generalities like team culture and not injecting himself as the face, etc. For example, his good moves were Freddy, Naz/Morgan contracts, Phaneuf dump, Martin signing (this one can go in the bad category, but I loved it). His bad moves were Marleau, Zaitsev contract, throwing away 2nd rounders on Plekanec and Boyle. Also, and maybe most importantly, his drafts were garbage (outside of the Matthews gift) - but maybe you can pin that on Hunter.


Maybe I'm missing some other significant moves, but overall that's the body of work of an average (mediocre) GM.

The 3 groups: Burke, Nonis/Dubas/Hunter and then Lou all played a big role I would say. I would say Lou has the smallest share, although he put on the finishing touch with Andersen in terms of new faces. That's a huge piece.

Where Lou failed was putting 11 mil into Marleau and Zaitsev. He made poor use of the assets given to him especially when you consider Matthews Marner Nylander were on ELC and Hyman made 2.25. I cringe thinking about it.

We were right thereeeee and Lou couldn't close. So now the Burke era of that group is cleared and Lou didn't leave anything behind to help. He went all in trading picks and using own rentals instead. Canes already have Necas and Panthers have Tippett from 2017

 

[RavenGuard]

The blue print is no secret. Finding the players to fit each role is tough.

Oilers will likely need a goalie to win the west. Vegas pretty much a lottery team there’s only a handful of real threats

It is tough for sure but it's a lot easier to find bottom 6 than top 6. I suffered for decades watching Oilers teams that were pretty much just bottom 6 players with the odd Weight, Guerin Hemsky thrown in for excitement. The once the Oilers finally got elite talent at the top end we couldn't build a competent bottom 6 to save our lives lol. So yeah I'm aware that it's not nearly as easy as one would think to build a good bottom 6.

I'm just glad to (so far) see an Oilers team that has balanced depth throughout the lineup at forward.

 

[egd27]

I was looking more for specifics rather than vague generalities like team culture and not injecting himself as the face, etc.

It's unfortunate that so many fail to understand the significance of these "vague generalities" on the success of an organization.

 

[ToneDog]

Marner should have been bridged...but after his bridge expired this off-season he'd be a rfa coming off being 4th in the league in scoring, and he'd get paid either way this year. But he should have been bridged regardless (I said so at the time).

However Matthews was completely out of our hands. If we gave him that insulting $8m offer he'd get an offer-sheet for $14m/year from any number of American teams and we'd be screwed.

How much would you pay Marner today with his poor playoff performances and 1 secondary assist in 7 games with Tavares or Matthews as his C ?? He'd be lucky to get the Aho deal.

 

[RavenGuard]

Problem is not our depth. Our top heavy players are playing like depth. That is our problem. Just as it was last year in the playoffs.

Your problem is also depth. Just a bunch of players that were never good enough or reclamation projects trying to exceed expectations.

As an Oiler fan having seen all this before.....they won't.

 

[LaPlante94]

Each game I feel like we need to break up our top PP unit. Split them up and share the PP time equally. PP been way too inconsistent for 3 seasons now and has been awful in the last 2 post seasons. It's sad when we have a PP unit with Ritchie-Speeza-Engvall-Kerfoot-Sandin look way better than Tavares-Marner-Matthews-Nylander-Rielly.

Edit: Just saw that they changed it back to the old look with Nylander in the bumper spot and Marner on the right side and Matthews on the left. Maybe 3rd times the charm for that formation.

 

[Kurtz]

It's unfortunate that so many fail to understand the significance of these "vague generalities" on the success of an organization.

How could one understand something that cannot be articulated? Is it a feeling? Is it ethereal? Does it take a great architect to build it, and what does it say about said architect when this creation collapses the moment he leaves?

 

[Peiskos]

Could you please find an NBA board and post til your heart’s content. . You may want to use yankee flag in your avatar, also.

Lol wow what a toxic take this is. You know basketball was invented by a Canadian right? And there are numerous Canadians on the Raptors. Your toxic mentality is what needs to go bud.

 

[Havoc]

It's unfortunate that so many fail to understand the significance of these "vague generalities" on the success of an organization.

The problem is when you think "good" versus "garbage".

Lou wasn't garbage. I just can't find it in myself to praise him when he had the best team and didn't do much with it after acquiring Andersen.

Lou had all of Burkes gems. Then he had Matthews Marner Nylander on ELC and then Hyman @ 2.25.

A part of you doesn't pain over the "what if" ? 11 mil in salaries + 2nd rounders traded for marginal impacts. Imagine the D upgrades we could have done with that instead. Lou was sitting on a gold mine with that stacked team and then leaves with us handicapped with that Marleau and Zaitsev contract instead and no playoff wins.

Then Dubas F's it all up even more with 11 mil for Marner lol

 

[Nineteen67]

Lol wow what a toxic take this is. You know basketball was invented by a Canadian right? And there are numerous Canadians on the Raptors. Your toxic mentality is what needs to go bud.

We don’t care…..ESPN may have a board dedicated to basketball

 

[Nineteen67]

It is tough for sure but it's a lot easier to find bottom 6 than top 6. I suffered for decades watching Oilers teams that were pretty much just bottom 6 players with the odd Weight, Guerin Hemsky thrown in for excitement. The once the Oilers finally got elite talent at the top end we couldn't build a competent bottom 6 to save our lives lol. So yeah I'm aware that it's not nearly as easy as one would think to build a good bottom 6.

I'm just glad to (so far) see an Oilers team that has balanced depth throughout the lineup at forward.

Experienced GM does experienced GM stuff. He’s not done yet.