We have a GM problem

[BobbyJet]

On the surface it looks to me like Florida has done the best job at a re-build. Kudos to their GM, Zito.

Of course, it can't go unnoticed that Dale Tallon was the GM before Zito ... again...... just like he was in Chicago. Coincidence?

 

[ColbyChaos]

Try substituting "sabres" for "lost and rudderless franchise for more than a decade" if that helps.

Jesus f’ing Christ I’ve had more intelligent conversations with a shoe in place of you.

Lost and rudderless for more than a decade.

10 years ago was 2015

More than a decade is our teams cup window. So we were lost and rudderless while winning cups? You want to sensationalize every post you make by saying we are the Sabres (a team who hasn’t made the playoffs since Bedard was 5 years old).

Directionless is the idiot plan you think is the way to build a team that would have the team mediocre forever and never even be in position to get Bedard…

 

[WarriorofTime]

Florida was the "Sabres" before the Sabres

10 straight seasons with missed playoffs (over 11 years)
fluked winning a bad division in 2011-12
missed 3 more seasons

 

[hockeydoug]

WPG never rebuilt, STL never rebuilt, CAR never rebuilt...like what? So your plan to rebuild, is to not rebuild? Seems like a solid plan. There's a difference between retool and rebuild, only team you mentioned was Philly who did a rebuild, and yay for them, they are now stuck in mediocrity.

How do you know Boston does all the important things well, when they have never had to enter a rebuild?

WPG rebuilt the entire thing from Atlanta, business and hockey ops.

A rebuild is alot more than just players. That's the disconnect I think.

Boston has maintained continuity at the head and president spot for more than 2 decades aligning everything they do with where they think the league will be. Plenty of hiccups year to year but they haven't been distracted by noise since the 90s. The accidental 3 1st round draft picks in a row was about as dumb as it gets, but they quickly righted the ship after a bad couple of years because they stay focused long term for example

 

[hockeydoug]

Jesus f’ing Christ I’ve had more intelligent conversations with a shoe in place of you.

Lost and rudderless for more than a decade.

10 years ago was 2015

More than a decade is our teams cup window. So we were lost and rudderless while winning cups? You want to sensationalize every post you make by saying we are the Sabres (a team who hasn’t made the playoffs since Bedard was 5 years old).

Directionless is the idiot plan you think is the way to build a team that would have the team mediocre forever and never even be in position to get Bedard…

Don't worry, it's not a conversation since you don't bother reading, make stuff up and just take stuff out of context.

The whole rudderless/sabres thing was based on an "if" management was completely inept or "if" they don't adjust (which I've said since summer I think started to do) but people like to give themselves wedgies or something I guess, and go straight to trolling.

The "rebuild" started when KD was given the keys and interim tag, that was day 1. The stuff before is a different topic and irrelevant.

 

[hockeydoug]

On the surface it looks to me like Florida has done the best job at a re-build. Kudos to their GM, Zito.

Of course, it can't go unnoticed that Dale Tallon was the GM before Zito ... again...... just like he was in Chicago. Coincidence?

Exactly, Tallon.

A gm with a plan to just acquire talent and then add and had no clue what or if his hockey ops dept could do anything well when he started a firesale for picks. Ownership gave him the keys and got out of the way. So he wasted what, 2,3,5 extra years fumbling through money and players and rookie coaches?

28 picks in 3 years and 8 in the top 50 in 2, lots of talent lost and misplaced in all the noise of a draft focused rebuild when the franchise didn't know if they could draft well or develop. Good ownership situation and pretty good resource allocation for the market even though they didn't have Chicago's affiliate advantage. New unproven coaches. It was a bad design with lots of similarities unfortunately.

Not sure what's so offensive for pointing out current management started a complete teardown and draft focused rebuild without knowing what they were good and bad at especially when it came to drafting and developing.

 

[Pez68]

Dale Tallon did more to build Las Vegas than Florida. Facts.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Not sure what's so offensive for pointing out current management started a complete teardown and draft focused rebuild without knowing what they were good and bad at especially when it came to drafting and developing.

I’ve read this five times and have no idea what this is supposed to mean or what the proposed correct course of action is supposed to be, if not a “draft-focused rebuild” from a team if they determine they are “bad at drafting and development”

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

Everyone knows GMs shouldn't be allowed to tear it down to add more prospects until AFTER they have a 3-4 drafts under their belt so they know that their scouts aren't a bunch of dummies. Cmon guys this is simple stuff.

 

[Castle8130]

A good rebuild with a great GM takes about 3 drafts to start flirting between the 15-25 range. A decent rebuild with a competent GM takes about 4-5 drafts to be in the 10-20 range. A bad GM stays in the bottom 12 for 5 seasons.

So far, Kyle has had 3 drafts to steer the ship in the right direction. It is clear to me he is not a great GM. Let's see if he is a competent one. He has 2 more drafts left at this point.

 

[Hawkaholic]

WPG rebuilt the entire thing from Atlanta, business and hockey ops.

A rebuild is alot more than just players. That's the disconnect I think.

Boston has maintained continuity at the head and president spot for more than 2 decades aligning everything they do with where they think the league will be. Plenty of hiccups year to year but they haven't been distracted by noise since the 90s. The accidental 3 1st round draft picks in a row was about as dumb as it gets, but they quickly righted the ship after a bad couple of years because they stay focused long term for example

WPG never traded gutted their team like the Hawks did, actually never really even traded top players for picks, they traded Laine for Dubois, traded Kane for Myers+ , never traded any of their main players. A rebuild is mostly the players, lets be real, the coaches/management don't play hockey, you know, the most important part.

Boston has had the same damn players for near a decade, Bergeron, Marchand, Pasta, McAvoy, etc.

You are putting way too much stock into the business side of it, and not the players on the ice.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Exactly, Tallon.

A gm with a plan to just acquire talent and then add and had no clue what or if his hockey ops dept could do anything well when he started a firesale for picks. Ownership gave him the keys and got out of the way. So he wasted what, 2,3,5 extra years fumbling through money and players and rookie coaches?

28 picks in 3 years and 8 in the top 50 in 2, lots of talent lost and misplaced in all the noise of a draft focused rebuild when the franchise didn't know if they could draft well or develop. Good ownership situation and pretty good resource allocation for the market even though they didn't have Chicago's affiliate advantage. New unproven coaches. It was a bad design with lots of similarities unfortunately.

Not sure what's so offensive for pointing out current management started a complete teardown and draft focused rebuild without knowing what they were good and bad at especially when it came to drafting and developing.

Dale Tallon did what, exactly? He got to pick 2nd overall, 3rd overall, and 1st overall, what a genius.

Didn't trade for Reinhart, didn't trade for Tkachuk, didn't sign Verhaegue, didn't trade for Bennett, didn't claim Forsling, didn't trade for Montour. They were stuck in mediocrity with him at the helm, it wasn't until Zito came in when they finally started to become a contending team.

Tallons tenure with Florida
Out of Playoffs
Lost in round 1
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Lost in round 1
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Lost in Qualifying Round

 

[Pez68]

Dale Tallon did what, exactly? He got to pick 2nd overall, 3rd overall, and 1st overall, what a genius.

Didn't trade for Reinhart, didn't trade for Tkachuk, didn't sign Verhaegue, didn't trade for Bennett, didn't claim Forsling, didn't trade for Montour. They were stuck in mediocrity with him at the helm, it wasn't until Zito came in when they finally started to become a contending team.

Tallons tenure with Florida
Out of Playoffs
Lost in round 1
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Lost in round 1
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Lost in Qualifying Round

And last but not least, gave away two really good players to Vegas for nothing.

 

[Dead Meat]

This is like reading facebook. I just read a post where some hoser wants KD gone after trading Phillips...

 

[ColbyChaos]

A good rebuild with a great GM takes about 3 drafts to start flirting between the 15-25 range. A decent rebuild with a competent GM takes about 4-5 drafts to be in the 10-20 range. A bad GM stays in the bottom 12 for 5 seasons.

So far, Kyle has had 3 drafts to steer the ship in the right direction. It is clear to me he is not a great GM. Let's see if he is a competent one. He has 2 more drafts left at this point.

Can you provide any examples of 3 year rebuilds or is this just years of EA NHL talking?

 

[Castle8130]

Can you provide any examples of 3 year rebuilds or is this just years of EA NHL talking?

Sure

The Capitals dipped into the top 10 of drafts 3 times getting all of Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Alzner.

The lightning grabbed Stamkos, Hedman, and Connolly in 3 consecutive drafts, then finished outside the bottom 10

 

[Paul Allen]

It’s going to be hard to compare this rebuild to ones of years’ past as there are now 32 NHL teams.

 

[Pez68]

It’s going to be hard to compare this rebuild to ones of years’ past as there are now 32 NHL teams.

And...a salary cap?

 

[WarriorofTime]

So much of it is going to depend on how your drafting was going prior to the point where you declared "OK WE'RE REBUILDING NOW", outside of really high picks, nobody is in the NHL for like the first three years after they are drafted and not really making a serious impact until like the fifth year. But because the highest picks are the most attention grabbing and often do step into the NHL day one, it creates a misperception and lag effect where people may think because you drafted someone first overall, you should be good in a yer or two.

 

[hockeydoug]

Dale Tallon did more to build Las Vegas than Florida. Facts.

Tallon was a hot mess.

KD started building the same way Tallon did. There's no closer comp. Huge accelerated selloff and then throwing picks to the wall as he lit money on fire.

 

[hockeydoug]

Dale Tallon did what, exactly? He got to pick 2nd overall, 3rd overall, and 1st overall, what a genius.

Didn't trade for Reinhart, didn't trade for Tkachuk, didn't sign Verhaegue, didn't trade for Bennett, didn't claim Forsling, didn't trade for Montour. They were stuck in mediocrity with him at the helm, it wasn't until Zito came in when they finally started to become a contending team.

Tallons tenure with Florida
Out of Playoffs
Lost in round 1
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Lost in round 1
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs
Lost in Qualifying Round

Yeah.

He was a disaster.

Selling off and drafting without knowing what his hockey people could do and not do and he had a good ownership situation too.

Lots of similarities year 1 and 2 with this Hawks rebuild.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah.

He was a disaster.

Selling off and drafting without knowing what his hockey people could do and not do and he had a good ownership situation too.

Lots of similarities year 1 and 2 with this Hawks rebuild.

What do you think eventually turned the Hawks around?

 

[Hawkaholic]

Yeah.

He was a disaster.

Selling off and drafting without knowing what his hockey people could do and not do and he had a good ownership situation too.

Lots of similarities year 1 and 2 with this Hawks rebuild.

How do you know what your hockey people can do at the NHL level, before they go through multiple drafts? If it were that easy, every team would hire those people and every pick, trade would be a win. lol fantasyland.

 

[hockeydoug]

And last but not least, gave away two really good players to Vegas for nothing.

He Tallon wasted more talent than some clubs drafted in 9 years.

Yet, just about everybody was on board with KD wasting his staff's time trying to manage and evaluate and develop a massive pool.

30 picks in 3 years is alot of wasted time and noise to sift through when they could be spending it on just a handful of high picks and few other players. How many thousands of hours are they wasting on mostly useless and redundant prospects outside the really high ones?

Fortunately, KD seems to have shifted gears. we'll see

 

[ColbyChaos]

Sure

The Capitals dipped into the top 10 of drafts 3 times getting all of Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Alzner.

The lightning grabbed Stamkos, Hedman, and Connolly in 3 consecutive drafts, then finished outside the bottom 10

Caps needed four years and had several picks within the top 10 prior to even drafting Ovi (who along with Sid could drag a bad team to wins which no other player could as a rookie)

Lightning did as well and they already had a lot of layover from their cup team (St Louis and Lecavalier, Kubina, etc) but it wasn’t mentioned how even after their 2011 playoff berth they went back to picking 10th and 3rd just 2 years later after their supposed rebuild was over. Reality is Tampas rebuild was actually over in 2014 when the triplets came onto the team and they had Bishop