We didn’t know what we had

[sparxx87]

Tampa Bay has the most involved analytics department in the league.

Indeed. The misunderstanding comes with how they’re used to make hockey personnel decisions as it pertains to the specific roles and responsibilities on a competitive hockey team.

This is where Dubas has gone so terribly wrong.

 

[Gurglesons]

Indeed. The misunderstanding comes with how they’re used to make hockey personnel decisions as it pertains to the specific roles and responsibilities on a competitive hockey team.

This is where Dubas has gone so terribly wrong.

And you're privy to the inner workings of the Toronto Maple Leafs how?

 

[sparxx87]

PIT and Toronto fans seem to share that in common. People are trying to equate our exit this year to the exit in 2019.

The NHL is based on cycles. You overcome those cycles by having the best players you possibly can. Moving one of Marner or Matthews right now makes no sense. If they could get out of the Tavares contract, I'd advocate it, but doubtful that happens.

Nylander was just their best player, so why move that. Even if you hate the core, you're stuck with them because you would be opening yourself up to be taken advantage of.

I agree with all of this (not sure that first part applies to me though)

We agree on the core problem in the Tavares contract. This would ideally be the best fix, and this is where it all went so terribly wrong.

I wouldn’t want to trade Marner, but with Tavares NMC, it would only be a move to try and salvage the potential 3 years they have left of Matthews.

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree with all of this (not sure that first part applies to me though)

We agree on the core problem in the Tavares contract.

I wouldn’t want to trade Marner, but with Tavares NMC, it would only be a move to try and salvage the potential 3 years they have left of Matthews.

What exactly do you expect to get back for Marner?

It's so weird how Leafs fans bag on the contract and player consistently and then think he'll somehow return some savior for their team.

 

[sparxx87]

What exactly do you expect to get back for Marner?

It's so weird how Leafs fans bag on the contract and player consistently and then think he'll somehow return some savior for their team.

This is why I said I don’t want to trade him.

It’s very hard to win a Mitch Marner trade, and really really easy to lose one.

 

[sparxx87]

And you're privy to the inner workings of the Toronto Maple Leafs how?

No, but I have an understanding of the core fundamentals of a competitive hockey team based on everything we know to be true.

We can draw several parallels between all the teams that win in the playoffs. Different varieties of talent are often what make the difference.

Problem with the Leafs is that they’re missing a large part of a core fundamental. We see this on the ice relative to other playoff teams... and we question Kyle Dubas for a number of moves he’s made based on the logic involved when we examine the things we know to be true.

 

[Gurglesons]

No, but I have an understanding of the core fundamentals of a competitive hockey team based on everything we know to be true.

We can draw several parallels between all the teams that win in the playoffs. Different varieties of talent are often what make the difference.

Problem with the Leafs is that they’re missing a large part of a core fundamental. We see this on the ice relative to other playoff teams... and we question Kyle Dubas for a number of moves he’s made based on the logic involved when we examine the things we know to be true.

There is no rhyme or reason to winning in the playoffs. If there was the Penguins would have been much more successful. Fans on our board get upset we only won 3 cups all the time. It's completely asinine.

Everything Dubas did for this year ran counterpoint to what the analytical data would say.

The sooner you realize hockey is the one sport driven nearly completely by luck the more you'll enjoy your own team.

 

[sparxx87]

There is no rhyme or reason to winning in the playoffs. If there was the Penguins would have been much more successful. Fans on our board get upset we only won 3 cups all the time. It's completely asinine.

Everything Dubas did for this year ran counterpoint to what the analytical data would say.

That’s not true at all. You’ve lost me.

You’re right. They had a much better line of thinking this year... but now we come back to Tavares, who prevents them from now being able to add a good # 3 centreman and two middle 6 wingers who can play an interior game to compliment their top players.

We could talk for an hour of a few different ways to structure your bottom 6, but the Tavares salary becomes an issue in that as well.

 

[Gurglesons]

That’s not true at all. You’ve lost me.

You’re right. They had a much better line of thinking this year... but now we come back to Tavares, who prevents them from now being able to add a good # 3 centreman and two middle 6 wingers who can play an interior game to compliment their top players.

We could talk for an hour of a few different ways to structure your bottom 6, but the Tavares salary becomes an issue in that as well.

It's easy to rag on the Tavares salary when he missed the entire 1st round.

You literally sound exactly like PIT fans from 2011-2015 bitching about Malkin.

 

[AllDay28]

Poor Tavares. Everyone wanted him and now they don’t even tho he’s been awesome for us. And he took less money (than even New York offered. With all world Lou at the helm)

and people wonder why UFAs don’t wanna sign here. Hmm

 

[Stonehands1990]

JGP is a 40-45 point player who is having 1 hot playoffs.

It's a shit trade and a shit contract.

1 hot playoffs? Wanna check your numbers there? 8 goals last season. 8 goals in one of Ottawa’s deep runs

Career 23 goals in 69 playoff games. 0.33 goals per game when it matters the most

 

[sparxx87]

It's easy to rag on the Tavares salary when he missed the entire 1st round.

You literally sound exactly like PIT fans from 2011-2015 bitching about Malkin.

I’ve been very vocal from the day it was signed that the Tavares deal was a big mistake. I like John Tavares for $7-8M as my 2C, not $11M.

Please don’t paint me with a brush when you have no idea what’s gone on with this team for the last 3 years. It’s been a comedy of errors and I’m trying to explain it to you.

 

[Superstar]

That’s not true at all. You’ve lost me.

You’re right. They had a much better line of thinking this year... but now we come back to Tavares, who prevents them from now being able to add a good # 3 centreman and two middle 6 wingers who can play an interior game to compliment their top players.

We could talk for an hour of a few different ways to structure your bottom 6, but the Tavares salary becomes an issue in that as well.

It's not Tavares, nor even the #3 centre spot that's the problem...Tavares was injured, and the Leafs had depth scoring...it was Matthews and Marner who let the Leafs down.

 

[Gurglesons]

I’ve been very vocal from the day it was signed that the Tavares deal was a big mistake. I like John Tavares for $7-8M as my 2C, not $11M.

Please don’t paint me with a brush when you have no idea what’s gone on with this team for the last 3 years. It’s been a comedy of errors and I’m trying to explain it to you.

When you have the chance to sign a player like Tavares for nothing you do it. Same thing Vegas did with Piets which many people balked at.

 

[Superstar]

I’ve been very vocal from the day it was signed that the Tavares deal was a big mistake. I like John Tavares for $7-8M as my 2C, not $11M.

Please don’t paint me with a brush when you have no idea what’s gone on with this team for the last 3 years. It’s been a comedy of errors and I’m trying to explain it to you.

Tavares wasn't signed to be a #2 C...I think Dubas' strategy was to have two #1 C's and strength down the middle.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's not Tavares, nor even the #3 centre spot that's the problem...Tavares was injured, and the Leafs had depth scoring...it was Matthews and Marner who let the Leafs down.

The Leafs did not have the depth scoring to match up to Montreal without Tavares. Simple facts of investing so much money in your top four players.

 

[AllDay28]

Someone make Gurglesons a Leaf mod pls.

 

[sparxx87]

When you have the chance to sign a player like Tavares for nothing you do it. Same thing Vegas did with Piets which many people balked at.

Defenseman are completely different conversations as they pertain to the structure of the team.

You’ve lost me again.

 

[Superstar]

The Leafs did not have the depth scoring to match up to Montreal without Tavares. Simple facts of investing so much money in your top four players.

But they were up 3-1 in the series without Tavares...had Matthews or Marner been able to score at least 1 goal in either games 5 or 6, the Leafs might have won the series...Matthews and Marner only combined for 1 goal in 7 games, which was clearly not good enough.

 

[Gurglesons]

Defenseman are completely different conversations as they pertain to the structure of the team.

You’ve lost me again.

Only because you want to feel bad about your team going out in the 1st round.

Happens a lot. Look at Tampa over the past 10 seasons prior to this one.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Indeed. The misunderstanding comes with how they’re used to make hockey personnel decisions as it pertains to the specific roles and responsibilities on a competitive hockey team.

This is where Dubas has gone so terribly wrong.

Exactly. Nobody has a problem with analytics. The issue is the competence of the people using the data

 

[sparxx87]

The Leafs did not have the depth scoring to match up to Montreal without Tavares. Simple facts of investing so much money in your top four players.

Absolutely true. But with a better structure, they most certainly could have overcome it against Montréal, and probably Winnipeg...

But then, they reach Tampa with Point, Cirelli, Gourde, Stamkos, Coleman, Goodrow, Killorn, Johnson etc who can all play centre and juggle around in the playoff, matchup scenarios.

 

[Gurglesons]

But they were up 3-1 in the series without Tavares...had Matthews or Marner been able to score at least 1 goal in either games 5 or 6, the Leafs might have won the series...Matthews and Marner only combined for 1 goal in 7 games, which was clearly not good enough.

I know it sucks. Same thing happened to a far better Penguins team against Montreal in 2010.

The older I get the more I think the NHL playoffs are the biggest scam in professional sports despite this concept that the Stanley Cup is the "hardest trophy to win".

It's hard because officiating blows, you can lose because your goalie has 2 bad games, or one injury. Or as we've seen the last two years you sweep the team in the previous round.

 

[Gurglesons]

Absolutely true. But with a better structure, they most certainly could have overcome it against Montréal, and probably Winnipeg...

But then, they reach Tampa with Point, Cirelli, Gourde, Stamkos, Coleman, Goodrow, Johnson, who can all play centre and juggle around in the playoff, matchup scenarios.

Well, maybe Lou should've paid analytical minds to draft for his team when he was in charge eh?

Because Tampa has been making use of analytics to inform their drafting choices for years.

 

[sparxx87]

Only because you want to feel bad about your team going out in the 1st round.

Happens a lot. Look at Tampa over the past 10 seasons prior to this one.

It’s not my team, it’s the Leafs. I live in Toronto and I want them to win.

They’re the one I’m dating, not who I’m married to.