We didn’t know what we had

[Gurglesons]

Of course. They get beat by teams with the same structure with more talent.

Imagine that same structure but swap Barzal and Eberle, for Matthews and Marner.

That looks like a pretty good team to me that will compete with anyone.

Dubas has taken a very good team and made them mediocre.

Lamoriello takes a good team and makes them a great team.

I think Lamoriello has done a good job in NYI, but I wouldn't qualify them as a great team.

I think they are a team that benefits from the current reffing in the league and I would be shocked if we don't see push back (especially from the investors) with basically all of the league's bright young stars being eliminated by similar systems.

I think they've been lucky this year in their match-ups. PIT's goaltending completely fell apart. Boston's already weak D got sunk by injuries. That's how the playoffs go.

 

[sparxx87]

Well, I know Toronto is very Leafs centric, but I think you need to step back and look at the other teams around the league.

I think you needed to take a step closer 6 years ago to really understand the inexplicable change of direction this team and entire organization has taken.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think you needed to take a step closer 6 years ago to really understand the inexplicable change of direction this team and entire organization has taken.

Toronto bet on skill. It hasn't worked out as the league has dialed back the favorable calling. Happened from 2012-2014 and then CHI, PIT, and WAS all won based on skill.

You can only build with what you have. You can't paint stripes on a kitty cat.

The Leafs need to buy into the identity of their core.

 

[sparxx87]

I think Lamoriello has done a good job in NYI, but I wouldn't qualify them as a great team.

I think they are a team that benefits from the current reffing in the league and I would be shocked if we don't see push back (especially from the investors) with basically all of the league's bright young stars being eliminated by similar systems.

I think they've been lucky this year in their match-ups. PIT's goaltending completely fell apart. Boston's already weak D got sunk by injuries. That's how the playoffs go.

I disagree. I think any team that performs greater than the sum of its part is great.

They will likely get beat by other great teams with a little more talent.

The Leafs are a talented group but have nowhere near the infrastructure to be called a great team.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

What happens if Montreal makes the SCF? Is it still a failure?

Pens fans are reacting the same way based on the last few years. 3 straight 1st round exits including a sweep. The Isles have made it to the CF two years in a row though and Montreal is now in the CF.

Maybe people need to just realize patience often pays dividends in this league.

There's a far more common problem than lack of patience. It's a failure to react when something clearly isn't working.

 

[Gurglesons]

I disagree. I think any team that performs greater than the sum of its part is great.

They will likely get beat by other great teams with a little more talent.

The Leafs are a talented group but have nowhere near the infrastructure to be called a great team.

I never said the Leafs are a great team.

 

[Gurglesons]

There's a far more common problem than lack of patience. It's a failure to react when something clearly isn't working.

How has Dubas not reacted to what isn't working?

The issue is you want Dubas to strip the core at their lowest point. This never works out well in the history of the NHL.

 

[justashadowof]

PIT, Wash, and Tampa won paying their top four forwards tons of cash.

None of them even close to half their payroll.

 

[sparxx87]

I never said the Leafs are a great team.

Ok, but do you get the point I’m making? Looking at one way that produces players and the team overachieving, while the other has only resulted in underachieving?

 

[Gurglesons]

None of them even close to half their payroll.

Oh no. You won't be able to afford giving Marc Andre Fleury 5.25 to sit on the bench. Brooks Orpik 5.5 to be a # 6 D or Tyler Johnson 5 mil to play 9 minutes a night.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

How has Dubas not reacted to what isn't working?

The issue is you want Dubas to strip the core at their lowest point. This never works out well in the history of the NHL.

I was open to ending this entirely unprecedented experiment after the Columbus debacle. But now losing to Montreal? Experiment over. Let's stop wasting prime Matthews years on an unprecedented experiment.

There is NO precedent of half the cap on 4 forwards. None. And we've seen it's post season results against two VERY mediocre teams.

Experiment over.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ok, but do you get the point I’m making? Looking at one way that produces players and the team overachieving, while the other has only resulted in underachieving?

Here are my points.

# 1. The Leafs have one of the brightest young cores in the league. Nylander, Matthews and Marner is a trio that any team should be lucky to build around. Tavares is a solid 2C. Those 4 are good enough to build a cup contender around.

# 2. The Leafs have had 2 straight disappointing playoff series. COVID happened. Injuries happened. Lots of teams with bright young cores have been terrible the last two years. Vegas, Dallas, Tampa, NYI. Teams built with veteran presence have been the teams getting through. Edmonton, Colorado, Buffalo. The comparable teams to Toronto have done jack shit in the playoffs too. Have some perspective.

# 3. The Leafs need to bet on their core. The teams that bet on their core when they have players like the Leafs ultimately win the cup. The only franchise I can think of that did not have this happen is the Canucks who reacted extremely stupidly to losing to Boston in 2011.

 

[Bomber0104]

How has Dubas not reacted to what isn't working?

The issue is you want Dubas to strip the core at their lowest point. This never works out well in the history of the NHL.

So you advocate trying (and failing) with 4 forwards occupying half the cap until when exactly?

Until they're all UFA?

 

[Gurglesons]

So you advocate trying (and failing) with 4 forwards occupying half the cap until when exactly?

Until they're all UFA?

Yes. You're at the point in your build where you've set in stone who the cornerstones are. Flailing about and trying to trade one in a flat cap world for a hopeful improvement is how you totally crush your window.

 

[sparxx87]

I was open to ending this entirely unprecedented experiment after the Columbus debacle. But now losing to Montreal? Experiment over. Let's stop wasting prime Matthews years on an unprecedented experiment.

There is NO precedent of half the cap on 4 forwards. None. And we've seen it's post season results against two VERY mediocre teams.

Experiment over.

And the idea that the parallel is to a team with two of the top five stars of this generation is borderline delusional.

 

[Gurglesons]

And the idea that the parallel is to a team with two of the top five stars of this generation is borderline delusional.

Are Matthews and Marner not going to be viewed as top of the top five stars of this generation?

Matthews is the top goal scorer over the last three seasons. Marner is 3rd in terms of production from a RW in the last three seasons.

 

[sparxx87]

Are Matthews and Marner not going to be viewed as top of the top five stars of this generation?

Matthews is the top goal scorer over the last three seasons. Marner is 3rd in terms of production from a RW in the last three seasons.

Matthews? Hopefully. But he’ll never be Sidney Crosby or replicate his overall impact on winning.

Marner? I shouldn’t even have to explain this, especially when we look at the other players in the conversation.

 

[justashadowof]

Oh no. You won't be able to afford giving Marc Andre Fleury 5.25 to sit on the bench. Brooks Orpik 5.5 to be a # 6 D or Tyler Johnson 5 mil to play 9 minutes a night.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is there. Every team is going to have underperforming players. An underperforming player on a team with faulty depth due to a lack of cap distribution room is way more impactful.

 

[JackFr]

Are Matthews and Marner not going to be viewed as top of the top five stars of this generation?

Matthews is the top goal scorer over the last three seasons. Marner is 3rd in terms of production from a RW in the last three seasons.

Marner is definitely not going be considered a top five star of this era

 

[sparxx87]

Here are my points.

# 1. The Leafs have one of the brightest young cores in the league. Nylander, Matthews and Marner is a trio that any team should be lucky to build around. Tavares is a solid 2C. Those 4 are good enough to build a cup contender around.

# 2. The Leafs have had 2 straight disappointing playoff series. COVID happened. Injuries happened. Lots of teams with bright young cores have been terrible the last two years. Vegas, Dallas, Tampa, NYI. Teams built with veteran presence have been the teams getting through. Edmonton, Colorado, Buffalo. The comparable teams to Toronto have done jack shit in the playoffs too. Have some perspective.

# 3. The Leafs need to bet on their core. The teams that bet on their core when they have players like the Leafs ultimately win the cup. The only franchise I can think of that did not have this happen is the Canucks who reacted extremely stupidly to losing to Boston in 2011.

I respect that, it’s all fair, but I’d bet my left nut we could have an hour long conversation about the state of the union that is the Toronto Maple Leafs and I would completely temper your level of optimism.

This team is led by someone who doesn’t understand hockey. Specifically playoff hockey. And he hired a coach that isn’t built for it, either.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

So you advocate trying (and failing) with 4 forwards occupying half the cap until when exactly?

Until they're all UFA?

Here's what's strange...

All the people that were defending the overpayments and big contracts and team design... they all always had one major point of defense. "The cap is going up BIG TIME". They always brought up Seattle and the new tv deals. And it was a decent argument. It won a lot of people over. This idea that we have a year or two of cap hell, but then things get better. People were projecting next year at well over 90 million cap ceiling. And yes, this team design could have worked if all went to plan.

But guys... the flat cap. It's taken away the ONLY excuse anyone had about how this team is made up. And that should be that. We should all just admit a global pandemic has forced Dubas' hand and SIGNIFICANT changes are needed (not band-aid solutions).

 

[Gurglesons]

I respect that, it’s all fair, but I’d bet my left nut we could have an hour long conversation about the state of the union that is the Toronto Maple Leafs and I would completely temper your level of optimism.

This team is led by someone who doesn’t understand hockey. Specifically playoff hockey. And he hired a coach that isn’t built for it, either.

I'm not optimistic, I just think it is silly that people say you can't win with 4 forwards taking up 50% of your cap or that the Leafs need to completely change everything.

 

[justashadowof]

Yes. You're at the point in your build where you've set in stone who the cornerstones are. Flailing about and trying to trade one in a flat cap world for a hopeful improvement is how you totally crush your window.

Dude, the window is already crushed. It's a team of playoff pansies. They can't win playoff series. Their failure point is just the 1st round of the playoffs instead of missing playoff qualification. They're not winning in their current configuration.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Toronto bet on skill. It hasn't worked out as the league has dialed back the favorable calling. Happened from 2012-2014 and then CHI, PIT, and WAS all won based on skill.

You can only build with what you have. You can't paint stripes on a kitty cat.

The Leafs need to buy into the identity of their core.

Toews, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Bolland, Hjalmarsson etc had a ton of grit

Crosby ain't no pansy, the ultimate grinder...team behind him good too

I'd add on top WSH...Backstrom, Ovechkin, Wilson, Oshie...yea skill guys but they cycle and go heavy traffic areas

We're not set up like those other teams. Their players were generally their best players in the playoffs and play a playoff style game. Leafs crumble vs the neutral zone trap and generally get kept to the outside.

 

[Garthinater]

In the past, the dubas fan boys told us that dubas' lack of results was due to him setting us up for future success.

May I ask when this "success" should start kicking in?

Also, does this "success" include having a bottom third prospect pool and only handful of picks over the next 2 years?