We didn’t know what we had

[IPS]

Speaking of Kapanen, he produced at a 20 goal, 60 point pace for Pittsburgh this season. Great value for his contract.

We got a seemingly good return for him, but he is another recent example of a cap casualty on this team.

Kapanen's metrics were quite unsustainable. It's far more likely he falls in line with his 40-50 point average next season.

 

[Aus34Matt]

Lou enabled Babcock. They were both horrible for team culture.

So tired of this crap. Maybe in your world that is full of pansies... this is hockey.

Lou and Babs brought respectability back to this club and TO became a players destination again. Then stick boy decided to make it about "individual potential" and not about the team as if this was the f***ing NBA.

 

[TOGuy14]

Komarov and Martin I would agree.

The others got about what they would get if they went to free agency. You also have to weigh up how you would replace them if they left. If they aren't replaced adequately, how would that effect the team? I'm not sure what they had in their system to do so.


The one that stands out though is Pageau. Perhaps to a team like the Leafs maybe he's a bit expensive, but I think he's a very good player.

Ok so what is the slant on Dubas then?

You are saying Lou signed guys at basically full market value, when we all know that Marner was getting RFA sheets from Columbus, and Matthews would have been a feeding frenzy so Dubas just signed both at market rate.

Why are these viewed differently just because the guys the Leafs signed are significantly better than the above mentioned, therefore more expensive

 

[Racer88]

Both players had good years are are the types of players needed in your supporting cast. I'd call the two even. Sad we lose both due to the lousy cap.

I’m sure you meant lousy cap management.

 

[AllDay28]

So tired of this crap. Maybe in your world that is full of pansies... this is hockey.

Lou and Babs brought respectability back to this club and TO became a players destination again. Then stick boy decided to make it about "individual potential" and not about the team as if this was the f***ing NBA.

ya nothing shows toughness like asking a player for a list of something negative about your teammates , then running to the players and telling them.

tatlers are tough!!!

real hockey culture was sitting Jason Spezza opening night. Spezza was a vet but he had to earn that spot on the Leafs.

 

[Bomber0104]

49% - 41% would be 8% more expensive. What are you talking about?

Also, Crosby and Malkin were better players than Matthews and Tavares. But are Marner and Nylander worse than Hornqvist and Kessel?

I feel like the cap difference is because Toronto has move overall depth in their 4 best forwards.

That's without getting into the fact the Penguins were paying 37 year old Chris Kunitz and Carl Hagelin a combined 7+ mil in those back to backs.

The playoffs are a total crapshoot. The mix you think will work often doesn't, but by having the best players you make your mix more likely to work.

Misread the % for $, apologies, multi-tasking here.

An 8% player in a $71.4M cap is a $5.72M player
An 8% player in a $81.5M cap is a $6.52M player

Again, not insignificant.

That's the choice the players and Dubas made though. Made his job to support them with playoff talent that much harder than it already is.

And the players? Well I guess they really needed that addition on their boathouses in Muskoka or something...

 

[Gurglesons]

Misread the % for $, apologies, multi-tasking here.

An 8% player in a $71.4M cap is a $5.72M player
An 8% player in a $81.5M cap is a $6.52M player

Again, not insignificant.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. The forward core of the Leafs which IMO (I am a Penguins fan, have been since the 80s). is more evenly distributed in terms of talent than PIT's costs 8% more than the forward core of the Pens that won a cup in 2016 and 2017.

The same forward core that was often criticized about never winning another cup since Malkin was making too much.

 

[ShaneFalco]

amen

 

[justashadowof]

ya nothing shows toughness like asking a player for a list of something negative about your teammates , then running to the players and telling them.

tatlers are tough!!!

real hockey culture was sitting Jason Spezza opening night. Spezza was a vet but he had to earn that spot on the Leafs.

This is not an endorsement of that incident but the true weakness signal of that entire incident is that we know about it.

 

[Kurtz]

This fixation with what we paid our top 4 is a bit silly. We did not lose because we paid our top 4. We still had plenty of money left over to build a cup calibre defense and were able to afford two good starting goalies.

We lacked a bit of depth, not because of money but because of choices. If we just signed Perry instead of Thornton/vescey we are probably in the final 4. Or if JT, Muzzin and Foligno are healthy we are in the final 4. How many teams out there can survive losing a ppg centre and their top dman and still advance?

We have plenty of cap this off-season to build out our bottom 6. We just need to chose the right depth pieces this time.

 

[sparxx87]

Malkin 9.5
Crosby 8.7
Kessel 6.8
Hornqvist 4.3
_
29.3 /71.4 = 41%

Matthews 11.6
Tavares 11
Marner 10.9
Nylander 6.9
_
40.4 / 81.5 = 49%

Sorry, I put 48 instead of 49.

I still don't see the big deal. You just need to allocate differently in terms of D and goaltending which the Leafs have done. Campbell just gave them great goaltending on the cheap.

And turn Auston Matthews and John Tavares into prime Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.

That part will be key.. I guess.

 

[AvroArrow]

When the Marleau deal was signed (yes, bad contract) there was no indication that JT would become a UFA a year later. It only began looking like he may go UFA in February and even then he indicated he didn't want to be traded at the TDL which made it look like resigning with NYI was likely.

JVR could have been extended at any point and his contract and Marleau's could have easily co-existed without JT being signed. The fact of the matter was that no one (including most posters) had any appetite for paying $7M with term attached for JVR.

You are attempting to revise the historical facts and timeline to fit your opinion of how badly the Marleau contract impacted the organization. And for the umpteenth time, without Dubas dropping $11M for a 2C, the last year of the (bad) contract gets ridden out.

For the record, I am in no way a fan of Dubas or excusing his shitty moves as well. He ruined this teams future by handing out those shitty deals. I'm just simply pointing out, Lou was far from great while he was here. People are acting like he was some heroic GM for the Leafs who was bringing us to greatness, when in reality he didn't really do shit in his tenure. He's obviously a great GM but his time here wasn't the best.

And in the summer of 2017 there was tons of indication suggesting JT to Toronto. How many god damn threads did we have on these boards about both Stamkos and Tavares coming home to play for Toronto lol. Forget JT to Toronto, signing a 37 year old to 6.25M for three years ? Stupidest way to allocate your cap. Even assuming we had no indication of JT hitting FA, that was STILL an atrocious deal.

You're dead wrong on that JVR point, there was absolutely no way he wasn't getting a raise. Nobody was getting him for a sweetheart deal.

There was massive f*** ups by both management teams. Lou for signing Marleau/Zaitsev. Dubas for handing out three 11M contracts. Matthews might be the only one who deserves it, but as a RFA that's horrible. Lou sucked while he was here. And now were stuck in a flat cap and are essentially f***ed.

FWIW Tavares actually took less than what other teams offered so he can come play in Toronto. For UFA's you always gotta overpay, I would criticize him more for the deals he gave 16 and 34. 22 year olds who haven't won anything or proved anything.

 

[ShaneFalco]

This fixation with what we paid our top 4 is a bit silly. We did not lose because we paid our top 4. We still had plenty of money left over to build a cup-winner calibre defense and were able to afford two good starting goalies.

We lacked a bit of depth, not because of money but because of choices. If we just signed Perry instead of Thornton/vescey we are probably in the final 4. Or if JT, Muzzin and Foligno are healthy we are in the final 4. How many teams out there can survive losing a ppg centre and their top dman and still advance?

We have plenty of cap this off-season to build out our bottom 6. We just need to chose the right depth pieces this time.

For what they bring, and the compete level in the playoffs, they are overpaid. We're going to continue to "build" around these guys though?

 

[Garthinater]

Yes I'm sure he took the first deal that he got and didn't bother negotiating or making calls. Who the hell is gonna take on 6.9M for an old guy who can't even skate anymore. Imagine we had Thornton signed for 6.9M going into next year lol who on earth would take that deal without a massive payment. It was known he was shopping around looking for takers. And for us to have a decent roster under the cap, that's the price we had to pay. And since we couldn't afford to pay JVR because we locked up this old LW for 3 years, JVR went to Philly for ree.

Zaitsevs deal was awful too, there's no way you move that contract without adding.

Apparently dubas hired keefe without interviewing anyone else so I wouldn't put it past kyle. He has proven to have no clue what he's doing.

 

[justashadowof]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. The forward core of the Leafs which IMO (I am a Penguins fan, have been since the 80s). is more evenly distributed in terms of talent than PIT's costs 8% more than the forward core of the Pens that won a cup in 2016 and 2017.

The same forward core that was often criticized about never winning another cup since Malkin was making too much.

Pittsburgh had won 1 Stanley Cup, been to a 2nd Cup Final and won 8 playoff series in total by this stage in Crosby/Malkin's careers.

 

[AvroArrow]

Apparently dubas hired keefe without interviewing anyone else so I wouldn't put it past kyle. He has proven to have no clue what he's doing.

Him and Keefe go a long way so it was expected, lots of us wanted Keefe as well.

 

[Kurtz]

For what they bring, and the compete level in the playoffs, they are overpaid. We're going to continue to "build" around these guys though?

Nylander was great. Matthews competed - led all forwards in hits, incredible defensive metrics, etc, but found too much iron. JT never got the chance. Only Mitch was the big let down. Let's see what happens with him.

 

[mydnyte]

I am concerned about JT for sure. I don’t think we will be getting 11M value out of him going forward. We already saw signs of decline this year.

actually, after he changed his blade, (first time in ages) he was above PPG, and regained his scoring touch.
So, i'm curious how starting a new season with that new blade will be

 

[Christ]

Not sure where this love for Lou comes from...what did he do in TO that made him stand out? I don't remember any outstanding trades, or bargain signings. He left just when major contracts needed to be worked out. Stamkos took one look and ran, the Marleau contract might have been a good one if he was 10 years younger...instead his predecessor was forced to trade a first just get out from the cap hit. He was really good at trading seconds at the deadline for bit players. Honestly the only thing that Lou did that I would consider noteworthy was prevent Matthew's from growing that atrocious stash...

 

[Gurglesons]

Pittsburgh had won 1 Stanley Cup, been to a 2nd Cup Final and won 8 playoff series in total by this stage in Crosby/Malkin's careers.

Okay? Dubas had one year with Matthews on an ELC.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Nylander was great. Matthews competed - led all forwards in hits, incredible defensive metrics, etc, but found too much iron. JT never got the chance. Only Mitch was the big let down. Let's see what happens with him.

And I've said it before, everyone knew Mitch was looking to pass every single time, and Hyman isn't much of a threat to shoot (especially coming back from an injury) so they keyed on AM
That's on Keefe too for not mixing things up

 

[sparxx87]

Kapanen's metrics were quite unsustainable. It's far more likely he falls in line with his 40-50 point average next season.

Maybe.

But do you think it’s possible that evaluating a player for their skill, ability, style, motor etc could be a better route than looking at metrics?

Is it possible that everyone else is playing chess while the Leafs are playing checkers, and that this thought process is a big part of why they’re in this mess?

 

[Garthinater]

Malkin 9.5
Crosby 8.7
Kessel 6.8
Hornqvist 4.3
_
29.3 /71.4 = 41%

Matthews 11.6
Tavares 11
Marner 10.9
Nylander 6.9
_
40.4 / 81.5 = 49%

Sorry, I put 48 instead of 49.

I still don't see the big deal. You just need to allocate differently in terms of D and goaltending which the Leafs have done. Campbell just gave them great goaltending on the cheap.

So pens paid 8% less while having crosby and malkin who are much, much better players than either matthews or marner and they were signed for longer.

Quite a big difference.

At the end of the day, paying 50% of your cap to 4 forwards is not a recipe for success.

That leaves 50% for 2 goalies, 6 d and 8 forwards.

 

[Gurglesons]

And turn Auston Matthews and John Tavares into prime Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.

That part will be key.. I guess.

Well as I said, I think the fact that you have Marner and Nylander versus Hornqvist and Kessel should help bridge that gap.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I mean Lighting, PIT, and WAS all recently won cups with their four best players getting paid big ticket deals.

Which is why I would like to follow their model and trade Marner and go for a stud D. Like all those teams.