We didn’t know what we had

[mydnyte]

I'm the first one to critique Dubas lately but he didn't sign PM
And Zaitsev had what 5 years left? Connor Brown was another Soup here.

Connor Brown was a 20 goal scorer who PK'd and could play anyplace in the top 9 way better overall player then the mighty Hyman

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yes it must be awful to have Nylander, Matthews, Marner and Tavares signed to big ticket deals.

You guys really need to chill. Pens fans did this same shit with Malkin and Crosby’s contracts and they won back to back with them as well as Letang making 7+ and Fleury making 5.25 riding the pine.

The precise argument is that half the cap on four FORWARDS is an unprecedented problem. You then bring up the Pens and point to 2 forwards, a D, and a G? I mean... that's precisely what we're arguing. Get rid of one of the 4 forwards and put that money on D.

 

[ToneDog]

Connor Brown was a 20 goal scorer who PK'd and could play anyplace in the top 9 way better overall player then the mighty Hyman

Both players had good years are are the types of players needed in your supporting cast. I'd call the two even. Sad we lose both due to the lousy cap.

 

[Gurglesons]

The precise argument is that half the cap on four FORWARDS is an unprecedented problem. You then bring up the Pens and point to 2 forwards, a D, and a G? I mean... that's precisely what we're arguing. Get rid of one of the 4 forwards and put that money on D.

Penguins had 41% of the cap tied up in Hornqvist, Kessel, Crosby, and Malkin.

Leafs have 48% of the cap tied up in Nylander, Marner, Tavares and Matthews.

Is it really that different? They won a cup with that group without Letang too.

Cups are won by center depth. Look at what just happened to the Avs.

 

[Mess]

He created all of that by maxing out the cap and leaving no flexibility.

Dubas inherited a team that finished #6th overall, with players and contracts and all, and knew the 3 Amigo's needed new contracts on the near horizon.

On May 11, 2018, Dubas was named as the 17th general manager in the club's history. Shortly after Dubas was named GM, both Hunter and Lamoriello left the organization. One of Dubas's first tasks as GM of the Maple Leafs was the 2018 NHL Entry Draft. This was then followed days later by the signing of UFA John Tavares as his first big transaction on July 1st, 2018.

So what's the first thing Dubas does he goes out and signs an $11 mil UFA centre in John Tavares, to the highest UFA contract of its time? That was neither expected nor budgeted for by previous management.

As a result he now maxed out the Leafs cap, and didn't have enough room to re-sign AM, MM and WN. So he had to make a lot of tough roster decisions thereafter to accommodate his JT signing as to who to trade, let walk as UFAs and what other sacrifices needed to be made to now keep the players he wanted thereafter under a cap crunch he alone created.

The rest is history as they say, but these were all his decisions based on his own actions, and choices and had absolutely nothing to do with the last GM who left him a cap compliant roster.

 

[ToneDog]

The precise argument is that half the cap on four FORWARDS is an unprecedented problem. You then bring up the Pens and point to 2 forwards, a D, and a G? I mean... that's precisely what we're arguing. Get rid of one of the 4 forwards and put that money on D.

We are probably going with 2 sub number 1s next year because we have no money for a true #1. Want to see how this off season plays out but it sure looks like Dubas has created quite a mess for himself.

 

[RebuildYear5]

I'm talking about Lou screwing us with bad contracts that forced Dubas to make big trades to get rid of them.

100%

Then he signs with NYI after scewing us on JT's deal & forcing Dubas to sign Matthew's and Marner on deals similar to JT obviously there better players.

That's where everything went downhill, if we didnt sign JT that year I guarantee they sign for 7-9M saving us 5M....also we would have another top10 draft pick or two assuming we would have kept drafting like managment promised us from day1.

If managment kept Kadri over JT that's another 5M saved on cap.

We never finished our rebuild and made the same mistakes as previous Leaf teams....we signed vets for top money and cut the rebuild short, its upsetting.

Our lineup if we stuck to our guns.
We're left with 12Million and basically the same lineup as we have today plus a few more prospects and switching out Kadri for Tavares.

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Kadri-Draft pick(top 10)
Amirov-Hirvonen-Nylander
Mikheyev-Spezza-Simmonds
Engvall-Draft pick-Draft pick

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Holl
Sandin-Liljegren
Dermott-Draft pick(top 10)
Kokkonen-Niemela

Campbell
Scott

 

[Rare Jewel]

Seriously, the guy recently gave:

31 year old Matt Martin four years
Pageau 6 years @ 5M
Anders Lee 7 years @ 7M
Eberle 5 years @ 5.5M
Brock Nelson 6 years @ 6M
Komarov 4 years @ 3M

Let's not also forget he signed Marleau to 3 years @ 6.25M when even in the press conference Babs was talking about how the third year would hurt

Lou signed Kovalchuk to a contract so long and expensive that the NHL voided it for being too ridiculous even for their liking

This whole myth that Lou is this godfather figure that bullies players into basically signing for peanuts is so dumb

Komarov and Martin I would agree.

The others got about what they would get if they went to free agency. You also have to weigh up how you would replace them if they left. If they aren't replaced adequately, how would that effect the team? I'm not sure what they had in their system to do so.


The one that stands out though is Pageau. Perhaps to a team like the Leafs maybe he's a bit expensive, but I think he's a very good player.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Yes it must be awful to have Nylander, Matthews, Marner and Tavares signed to big ticket deals.

You guys really need to chill. Pens fans did this same shit with Malkin and Crosby’s contracts and they won back to back with them as well as Letang making 7+ and Fleury making 5.25 riding the pine.

Appreciate the comments, but Crosby and Malkin are/were on another level than Matthews and Tavares, and our other 2 big contracts are for wingers.

The cap allocation made much more sense on your team at the time.

 

[egd27]

The decision was never Tavares or JVR, it was JVR or Marleau. We knew we were going hard after JT that summer and we knew JVRs ufa status. As soon as the deal for Marleau was made for that price and 3 years it was a known fact that JVR has to go, we couldn't afford to re-sign him AND make a play for Tavares the same summer, unless of course we get rid of that garbage Marleau contract.

When the Marleau deal was signed (yes, bad contract) there was no indication that JT would become a UFA a year later. It only began looking like he may go UFA in February and even then he indicated he didn't want to be traded at the TDL which made it look like resigning with NYI was likely.

JVR could have been extended at any point and his contract and Marleau's could have easily co-existed without JT being signed. The fact of the matter was that no one (including most posters) had any appetite for paying $7M with term attached for JVR.

You are attempting to revise the historical facts and timeline to fit your opinion of how badly the Marleau contract impacted the organization. And for the umpteenth time, without Dubas dropping $11M for a 2C, the last year of the (bad) contract gets ridden out.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Penguins had 41% of the cap tied up in Hornqvist, Kessel, Crosby, and Malkin.

Leafs have 48% of the cap tied up in Nylander, Marner, Tavares and Matthews.

Is it really that different? They won a cup with that group without Letang too.

Cups are won by center depth. Look at what just happened to the Avs.

Different in the sense that one team wins, the other perpetually loses

 

[81Leafs50]

Lou enabled Babcock. They were both horrible for team culture.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Penguins had 41% of the cap tied up in Hornqvist, Kessel, Crosby, and Malkin.

Leafs have 48% of the cap tied up in Nylander, Marner, Tavares and Matthews.

Is it really that different? They won a cup with that group without Letang too.

Cups are won by center depth. Look at what just happened to the Avs.

Other than Letang they spent a total of SIX million on the entire rest of their D.

Good for them. Sometimes great things happen. But you'd have to be insane to say it's smart to design a team in such a way...

 

[ToneDog]

When the Marleau deal was signed (yes, bad contract) there was no indication that JT would become a UFA a year later. It only began looking like he may go UFA in February and even then he indicated he didn't want to be traded at the TDL which made it look like resigning with NYI was likely.

JVR could have been extended at any point and his contract and Marleau's could have easily co-existed without JT being signed. The fact of the matter was that no one (including most posters) had any appetite for paying $7M with term attached for JVR.

You are attempting to revise the historical facts and timeline to fit your opinion of how badly the Marleau contract impacted the organization. And for the umpteenth time, without Dubas dropping $11M for a 2C, the last year of the (bad) contract gets ridden out.

It is not like Dubas did not know Marleau had that 3rd year on his contract. Blame Lou for giving Marleau that contract but Dubas has nobody to blame but himself for the cap hell he has put himself in.

 

[Bomber0104]

Penguins had 41% of the cap tied up in Hornqvist, Kessel, Crosby, and Malkin.

Leafs have 48% of the cap tied up in Nylander, Marner, Tavares and Matthews.

Is it really that different? They won a cup with that group without Letang too.

Cups are won by center depth. Look at what just happened to the Avs.

I'd like to see your math on this.

 

[justashadowof]

Lou enabled Babcock. They were both horrible for team culture.

What an upswing in culture post Lou, post Babcock: 2 consecutive series losses to sub .500 opponents.

 

[Gurglesons]

Other than Letang they spent a total of SIX million on the entire rest of their D.

Good for them. Sometimes great things happen. But you'd have to be insane to say it's smart to design a team in such a way...

I mean Lighting, PIT, and WAS all recently won cups with their four best players getting paid big ticket deals.

 

[Menzinger]

Other than Letang they spent a total of SIX million on the entire rest of their D.

Good for them. Sometimes great things happen. But you'd have to be insane to say it's smart to design a team in such a way...

Worth noting, the Leafs current defensive spending isn't particularly out of line with what most teams spend. Tampa spends about 6 mil more, the Habs 5 mil more, the Islander's are about the same as the Leafs and Knights about 2 mil more. And the Leafs spend about 2 mil more than the Avs did.

If one wants to rebalance the Leafs cap it would likely involve spending more money on depth forwards than redirecting most of that money on defense

 

[Suntouchable13]

I am concerned about JT for sure. I don’t think we will be getting 11M value out of him going forward. We already saw signs of decline this year.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd like to see your math on this.

Malkin 9.5
Crosby 8.7
Kessel 6.8
Hornqvist 4.3
_
29.3 /71.4 = 41%

Matthews 11.6
Tavares 11
Marner 10.9
Nylander 6.9
_
40.4 / 81.5 = 49%

Sorry, I put 48 instead of 49.

I still don't see the big deal. You just need to allocate differently in terms of D and goaltending which the Leafs have done. Campbell just gave them great goaltending on the cheap.

 

[81Leafs50]

What an upswing in culture post Lou, post Babcock: 2 consecutive series losses to sub .500 opponents.

WTF are you talking about. lol

 

[Bomber0104]

I am concerned about JT for sure. I don’t think we will be getting 11M value out of him going forward. We already saw signs of decline this year.

I saw more last years than this year.

Whatever he did in the off-season worked for him and hopefully he can do the same again.

 

[Bomber0104]

Malkin 9.5
Crosby 8.7
Kessel 6.8
Hornqvist 4.3
_
29.3 /71.4 = 41%

Matthews 11.6
Tavares 11
Marner 10.9
Nylander 6.9
_
40.4 / 81.5 = 49%

Sorry, I put 48 instead of 49.

So Toronto's roughly 20% more expensive...

That's not exactly insignificant.

 

[justashadowof]

WTF are you talking about. lol

Is this where I'm supposed to pretend that you didn't understand what I posted?

 

[Gurglesons]

So Toronto's roughly 20% more expensive...

That's not exactly insignificant.

49% - 41% would be 8% more expensive. What are you talking about?

Also, Crosby and Malkin were better players than Matthews and Tavares. But are Marner and Nylander worse than Hornqvist and Kessel?

I feel like the cap difference is because Toronto has move overall depth in their 4 best forwards.

That's without getting into the fact the Penguins were paying 37 year old Chris Kunitz and Carl Hagelin a combined 7+ mil in those back to backs.

The playoffs are a total crapshoot. The mix you think will work often doesn't, but by having the best players you make your mix more likely to work.