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WCF Gm#4: KINGS vs. Hawks - 6/6/13 - Kings Go Down 3-1 in the Series

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AKAY47 said:
Now? Go read my posts since the day the kid was drafted. I didn't like it back then and still hate it now. We drafted him in 2010 and he still hasn't seen the ice. Tyler Toffoli was the make up pick for the **** up on Forbort. Not only could we have taken Tarasenko or Emerson Etem (the draft was in LA, would've made for a good story), but we took a flyer on Forbort. Tonellisghost said Forbort's ceiling was Keaton Ellerby, lmao. If that is not a failure, then I don't know what is.
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You don't draft based on good stories.

Am I happy and excited about the development of Forbort? No, not at all. He has done nothing since being drafted for anyone to think he will be anything more than a bottom pair defender.

But he was the right pick at the time, a big kid with some raw skill and a developing offensive game, no one could have predicted how his development would have stalled so much at NoDak.

This was nothing like the Colten Teubert pick, that one is up there with Zultek and Tukonen in awful Kings picks.
 
AKAY47 said:
I think David Clarkson/Ryane Clowe will be two guys to keep an eye on. I know Sutter loves Clowe, he always talks about him and his importance to the Sharks. Watch the handshake after the Devils series last year, Sutter had a long talk with Clarkson. I wouldn't be surprised if one of those guys signed with us come July 5th and Penner was not re-signed. Brendan Morrow is another name to keep an eye on, of course Iginla's relationship with Sutter will make him a hot link to the Kings.

Brown-Kopitar-Williams
Clarkson/Clowe-Carter-Toffoli
Clifford-Richards-Lewis
King-Stoll-Nolan/Andreoff/Whoever

We still need to give Voynov, Scuderi, Martinez, Muzzin, Nolan, Clifford, Lewis a payday too. I'm assuming Muzzin, Martinez, Clifford, Nolan and Lewis all get tendered. Trevor Lewis may be the only guy who gets an extension and he definitely deserves it. Voynov will get a huge pay-raise, especially after these playoffs and I pray to God we find a way to keep Scuderi. I said it before and I'll say it again, the money they gave Regehr should've gone to Scuderi.
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For what it is worth I heard several rumors about our wanting to try and get Clowe on the team before he went to the Rags but it wasn't going to happen. I would bet that we make some sort of push for him this OS but I believe he will ultimately end up with the Rags. They have seem to be willing to move valuable assets to make room for vets.
 
Free agents are such a wash in the NHL. Dean won't overpay (nor do I want him to), but every single one will be overpaid.
 
Herby said:
Richards was greatly missed on the PP, GREATLY. But there are major consistency issues 5 on 5 from game to game with him. And defensive presence? Come on man, I'm not disputing that he was at one point a great defensive player, and while he is still a good PK'er because of his game sense and smarts, he was a poor defensive player this season for the Kings at even strength. Very poor
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He has not been poor defensively in these playoffs. As many complaints as there was about him matching up with Thorton in the sharks series, Thorton never did have a game that took the Kings out of it. All the road games were 2-1 losses. And since Richards has been gone, the team has given up more goals then any other time in the past two years in the playoffs. It's not all because of him but its had an impact defensively. Carter and Richards were taking a lot of pressure off Kopitar and now all of the sudden Kopitar is struggling in the D zone too?

This isn't just a power play issue that we are missing here. When sutter needs someone to hold the lead in the last two minutes, who does he put out there? The numbers also point to him being great this PO. You harped on how Stoll has been our best center this year and he hasn't scored a goal. How can you watch this team's play and claim that they are only missing his PP? It's a completely different team when Richards is out there.
 
Wait, I didn't exactly say that Forborts upside was Keaton Ellerby and that is taken out of context a bit.

Here is exactly what I believe Forbort will become.

A big bodied NHL caliber Dman who is suited to being a hybrid type #4/6 guy. Think A Mart with less O and a bit more physicality. Ellerby has a similar style of game but has yet to show the maturity to be able to make the turn towards becoming an everyday NHL Dman.

Forbort has a bit more upside then Ellerby in every area of his game but the two will ultimately become NHL Dmen who serve similar roles for their respective teams. Forbort will be the better of the two imo by a bit but I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that he will be a top pairing Dman at the NHL level.

Now, aside from their overall skills I think Forbort has something that separates him in a big way from Ellerby and that is heart and fire. Forbort *can* be a pistol of a player and *can* at times play with a great amount of edge. His fire when he shows it elevates his game considerably.

If he can bring his game up to the same level that he does when he is playing with fire then he could be a very good 2nd pairing guy. My problem is that I haven't seen him do that with any consistency. Elerby doesn't posses the same characteristics and as such will always only be a bottom pairing Dman as a result.

So comparable but different.

I do disagree with the idea that Forbort's pick was a mistake. Forbort was a bit of a gamble but he will be an NHL Dman and a bit better than average one when he does. Maybe he won't become a top pairing big Dman who can take over a game but he will be a solid Dman for the team and that is valuable to me.

As to the players we passed on in favor of taking Forbort it happens every year to every team. We hit with Viacheslav Voynov where everyone else passed. If you can successfully pick NHL players (which we have done at a ridiculous pace) with any round of your picks then you are doing a great job. We do that better than anyone else in the game.

Now, we don't always turn our picks into assets but they do end up in the NHL and we are about to see more evidence of that this coming and the next season. Stoll will be replaced by Vey or Shore. Toffi Pearson and Andreof will all be with the team over the next season or maybe the following one.

We have some hit big or miss kids out there too not to mention our D prospects who are ready or becoming so (I can't wait for Gravel to make the jump and still think that Des will turn the corner and become a fan favorite here).
 
6' 5" and 218 lbs...

i-like-it-alot-o.gif
 
damacles1156 said:
You are arguing with 20/20 hindsight.....The Draft is is an entire crap shoot. Couture went were he was projected.

Lombardi made up for that pick with Simmer which landed Richards...

The idea is to get two roster players each draft, Lombardi and Chiarelli are the only GM's since 2006 to send more drafted players to the roster every year.

You guys are crying over nothing. The Kings have a deep farm system. The scouts are doing their Jobs better than they have ever done in Kings history.

I use to complain like everyone else, but you have to look at the draft has a whole....

The idea is to hit on two players in any of the rounds...Lets say you missed on every round except the 7th and landed a Dats and Zetterberg....So now that draft is a failure cause the first rounder stunk ?

No it's a huge success, The Kings have found players in every draft since 2006, not many teams can claim that.
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Agree to disagree I guess... A #4 should have a different crap shoot risk than a #24 or 44.

Oh well, maybe that's just me.
 
Axl Rhoadz said:
I disagree, I think Boston will destroy them.
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Yeah, I just keep thinking that this is Boston's year to win the Cup. They've been phenomenal and if there is any goalie who has been equal to Quick in the playoffs, it's Rask. It also helps that they have the manbeast Chara playing half a game and they are four lines deep. I think the Bruins can take it to the Hawks (and would do the same to the Kings if they reach the Finals).
 
Butch 19 said:
Agree to disagree I guess... A #4 should have a different crap shoot risk than a #24 or 44.

Oh well, maybe that's just me.
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Plenty of top ten picks have been busts....There is probably about four each year....

What exactly do people expect ? If you're a GM for any length of time, you are going to pick lots of busts.

I would hate to see Lou Lam's draft record of busts....He probably has a long list....But he also has a long list of success.
 
Butch 19 said:
Agree to disagree I guess... A #4 should have a different crap shoot risk than a #24 or 44.

Oh well, maybe that's just me.
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I agree in principle but there are several outlying factors to consider for each pick every year.

Hickey at #4 is a tough one but he is playing in the NHL and several Isles fans think he was one of their best D at times. Give him two years and he could become a stalwart 2nd pairing Dman who can QB the PP and give you a solid effort in his own end.

So while we reached a bit to get him he has ended up in the NHL and is becoming a solid Dman with some nice upside. What I don't like is that we lost him for nothing but again, that stuff happens to every good team (and a few of the bad ones too).

So Hickey wasn't a crap shoot imo, he made the NHL and is doing fine. He was a bit of a reach but then that is going to happen to the best of them once in awhile. If it continually happened I might be more concerned I guess.
 
damacles1156 said:
1. The Hawks are the best PK in league. At around 96% all year and have given up Three PP goals(in the playoff's) ?

2. When half the roster is dead, I really don't care who plays LW they all suck, That is Lombardi's fault not Sutters.

3. I can count Three bad lines changes in this series, they happen.
The coaches are not calling guys off the ice when scoring chances are developing. That's not how it works use a little common sense.

The Kings didn't get the puck deep, went for a line change and Bam scoring chance...How is that Sutter's fault ? The guy is not on the ice.

4. 7 Defenders will cause some confusion, Also the constant line swaps(Sutter's fault). They are going to happen

5. Should have played TT more, but it happens other coaches have made that mistake as well, shows Sutter is Human.

There is no perfect coach out there, Sutter did well last season, seems to be doing well this season...
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Furthermore isn't it usually the assistant coaches jobs to look after the changes.
 
Tonellisghost said:
I agree in principle but there are several outlying factors to consider for each pick every year.

Hickey at #4 is a tough one but he is playing in the NHL and several Isles fans think he was one of their best D at times. Give him two years and he could become a stalwart 2nd pairing Dman who can QB the PP and give you a solid effort in his own end.

So while we reached a bit to get him he has ended up in the NHL and is becoming a solid Dman with some nice upside. What I don't like is that we lost him for nothing but again, that stuff happens to every good team (and a few of the bad ones too).

So Hickey wasn't a crap shoot imo, he made the NHL and is doing fine. He was a bit of a reach but then that is going to happen to the best of them once in awhile. If it continually happened I might be more concerned I guess.
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Even so Alzner was probably BPA at that spot....is he really that much better than Hickey ?

Hickey played well for his first year in the NHL. It was a long road, but he made it.

I didn't like the pick just like everyone else. I don't care though, cause Simmer was picked later, then flipped for Richards/Cup.

Lombardi did his job. The 2007 draft has Four players in the NHL.

Hickey,Simmer,A-MART-King....That is four roster players. Teams kill for that type of roster player acquirement from drafts.
 
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Having the #4 in 2007 was kind of like having the #3 in 2004, just bad luck spot.

In hindsight the Kings should have gone forward and/or traded down. But even so, after the top 3, the only really good forwards who would be making an impact for the Kings right now would have been Couture, Voracek and Pacioretty. All being left shot players, with Voracek and Patches being wingers.

Lombardi had no idea he was going to end up with Doughty and VV, and if he did he probably wouldn't have taken Hickey there.

The only thing you could possibly criticize the Kings for on the 2007 draft was the fact that 2008 was already being hyped as very heavy in D prospects (and it obvious was), perhaps the Kings should have looked to a winger or C and then addressed the D the next year in the loaded draft, obviously everyone knew the 2007-2008 Kings would be picking no worse than 5th.
 
damacles1156 said:
Even so Alzner was probably BPA at that spot....is he really that much better than Hickey ?

Hickey played well for his first year in the NHL. It was a long road, but he made it.

I didn't like the pick just like everyone else. I don't care though, cause Simmer was picked later, then flipped for Richards/Cup.

Lombardi did his job. The 2007 draft has Four players in the NHL.

Hickey,Simmer,A-MART-King....That is world class. Teams kill for that type of roster player acquirement from drafts.
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I like Hickey better than Alzner even today.

I agree that DL did his job. I am honestly amazed at our groups success rate. I haven't seen anything like it before. We hit way more than miss and even the players we end up passing down the road find their ways to the NHL.

To me it is unprecedented and amazing.
 
Herby said:
Having the #4 in 2007 was kind of like having the #3 in 2004, just bad luck spot.

In hindsight the Kings should have gone forward and/or traded down. But even so, after the top 3, the only really good forwards who would be making an impact for the Kings right now would have been Couture, Voracek and Pacioretty. All being left shot players, with Voracek and Patches being wingers.

Lombardi had no idea he was going to end up with Doughty and VV, and if he did he probably wouldn't have taken Hickey there.

The only thing you could possibly criticize the Kings for on the 2007 draft was the fact that 2008 was already being hyped as very heavy in D prospects (and it obvious was), perhaps the Kings should have looked to a winger or C and then addressed the D the next year in the loaded draft, obviously everyone knew the 2007-2008 Kings would be picking no worse than 5th.
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Which is why I like the way Lombardi is doing the drafting now, Lots of swings in the Second/Third-beyond rounds.

Give the scouts more chances to land roster players.

The Kings have Ten draft picks this year.....TEN
 
Tonellisghost said:
I like Hickey better than Alzner even today.

I agree that DL did his job. I am honestly amazed at our groups success rate. I haven't seen anything like it before. We hit way more than miss and even the players we end up passing down the road find their ways to the NHL.

To me it is unprecedented and amazing.
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Our scouts and management have done a phenomenal job. Especially in the later rounds. Jonathan Quick at 72 is amazing. I still believe when it's all said and done he'll be the greatest player in franchise history.
 
I've generally been a negative poster over my time here, and with good reason as the Kings record until last season and this would validate; however, I don't understand all of the hysterics going on in this thread.

Our best forward, and some would argue best player, is skating like Ryan Smyth right now and our 2nd line center is out injured, yet they've lost two of these three games by one goal to a team that ****kicked the conference this season. Sometimes it just isn't in the cards, you know? Still, they were able to avenge the 2011 playoff loss to SJ this year and we got a home Game 7 out of it to boot. Good times.

Toffoli has been a revalation, as has Voynov. When healthy, this team is still pretty damn good. They've gone farther with their title defense than any Cup winner since Detroit in '09 and they are actually icing a younger team than last season.

Can tweaks be made? Sure they can, but this team is like a great 2013 car that just gets some minor tweaks in 2014 to make it better since the base is so rock solid already. I made a bet with my Duck fan friend immediately after the game for $1,000 over which team will be better for the next five years because this team is set to compete for awhile, barring injuries of course.

People are focusing way too much on what's going on right this second instead of looking at history as it pertains to Kopitar, Brown etc...What's funny though is that while there are too many focusing on the immediate present, they are still forgetting that this team has gutted itself into Game 5 of the WCF. C'mon now!! We were just stoked to make the playoffs three seasons ago!!

With all that being said, this still isn't over although it's a very daunting task. Chicago is a very, very good team that is closer to full strength than the Kings are and we've all seen the the horrors of Kings hockey on the road this season. Still, these guys have balls and will lay it all out there on Saturday.

One game at a time. We can all worry about next season when this one is actually over; even then, we really shouldn't worry all that much.
 
Reclamation Project said:
Our scouts and management have done a phenomenal job. Especially in the later rounds. Jonathan Quick at 72 is amazing. I still believe when it's all said and done he'll be the greatest player in franchise history.
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My brain doesn't even allow me to consider what Quick could end up becoming.

I start thinking about the potential of his place in NHL history and my legs get all shakey then the room starts spinning and I have to sit down and watch some cricket to get right again.
 
Reclamation Project said:
When I watch the Bruins one thought comes to mind - that's healthy LA Kings hockey. I can definitely support that.
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Fixed :-)

On an off season note, I really hope Penner with consider taking a minor pay cut to stay. He seems like a great locker room guy and he's hilarious. And in big time games he really does give his all, I hope Dean and Penner can figure something out that works for our salary cap. It really wouldn't hurt to have him as part as our LW depth over King.
 
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