Was Ziggy Palffy an elite talent?

[SeanMoneyHands]

He had a very short career due to injuries. From what you saw of him, was he an elite talent?

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[Bear of Bad News]

I think he had Hall of Fame talent but not a level above that, so my answer depends on what you think "elite" means.

 

[MadLuke]

That all about where the elite talent bar is, he would have been the most talented player on a lot of nhl team and finished top 10 in points quite often.

Maybe when talking about all-time great it could be a discussion, but when he was playing he was certainly among the league elite talent of his time.

 

[Staniowski]

Yes, of course he was an elite talent.

I first saw him play ar the '91 World Juniors, where he was the revelation of the tournament. Fast and talented, a great scorer. He's close to being the most forgotten (to the extent he's forgotten) great scorer of all-time.

He should be in the HHOF (if i had a vote, it would be an easy "Yes"). One of the top scorers of the DPE in the NHL, and in Europe and internationally otherwise.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

His NHL career was short because he up and left the abysmal Penguins mid-season, apparently because of how bad they were.

But he played in Slovakia into his 40s.

 

[sr edler]

With all these descriptive terms, like "elite", it depends a bit on what you put into them yourself, but Palffy was definitely an upper echelon talent, though obviously not on a say Jagr type of level, or even a Bure or Selänne level.

But it's funny if you've seen those old photos of Palffy in juniors where he wears #68 and sports the exact same mullet as Jagr. He looks just like Jagr, except the size.

Perhaps if he had Jagr's size, he could have been really dominant. But I guess you can play that hypothetical game with most players. Size comes with both pros and cons, and you need to be able to adapt your game accordingly.

But I always found Palffy way more offensively well-rounded than countrymen such as Bondra and later Gaborik. He couldn't just score goals, but make plays and drive a line properly as well. I would also prefer him in front of someone like Gartner, fairly easily.

If the thread question was "Was Palffy more elite than Gartner?" then I would say, yeah, he was.

 

[MadLuke]

Some TV color commentator calling him mini-Jagr, he had a bit of same look and overall offensive threat, playmaking, could score on the islander lot of goals, could be part of a really greats (and different incarnation) first lines with the Kings.

Considering the Kings market and his "per-game" performance there, he was good health away (which for the era is saying a lot, not some just) to be a big star, specially if Blake-Deadmarsh also have health and they push and get in great battle in the playoff against the big name western Avs-Wings team of that era and those good audience numbers that come with it.

 

[Terry Yake]

i never understood why he retired halfway through 05-06 citing "lingering shoulder injury" when he was still a PPG player and then never returned to the NHL. instead he took a season off and tore up the slovak league for another several seasons

the "new" NHL was perfectly suited for him

 

[MadLuke]

He was not playing full season there either, outside personal preference of his own country, maybe the 54-56 game season schedule was something his body preferrer.

He never had a full season post 1998 (and often less than 75 games) and during the 2005 lock-out he would have lived that life, so he had a good direct comparison between those 2 options.

it was also a very long break, second half of 06 + the complete 06/07 year, so it could have been a serious should issue.

 

[Ishdul]

By P/G he finished 11th (96-97), 13th (97-98), 14th (98-99), 14th (99-00), 4th (00-01), 19th (01-02), 10th (02-03). He didn't play enough games to qualify in 03-04 but was 2nd.

So I'd say on the relatively low end of elite.

 

[GKJ]

He was one of my favorite players, so yes

 

[MadLuke]

Goal per games finish to add to the ppg above:


Goals Per Game
1996-97 NHL 0.60 (8th)
1997-98 NHL 0.55 (6th)
2000-01 NHL 0.52 (9th)
2001-02 NHL 0.51 (5th)
2002-03 NHL 0.49 (9th)

 

[The Pale King]

Absolutely he was. His highlight reel is absurd, but the numbers he put up were pretty mind-boggling for the linemates he had and the era he played in.

On a medium-bad ('mid' as the kids say) 2002-03 Kings team, he had 85 points when the next closest player, an ancient Mathieu Schneider, had 43. The next closest forward had 38 points. So he more than doubled them, while putting up a team-leading +22 (next closest was Frolov's +12). He was really on an island that year, almost unprecedently so, and no one ever talks about that year, ever. And it was very similar when he was with the Islanders. Travis Green, Bryan Smolinski... solid players but not guys who get you to the 90 point plateau without that aforementioned elite talent that Palffy had.

I've made this point before on here, but he had three seasons where he scored in the mid-40s goals-wise. Give him a handful of extra goals, and we're talking about a 3-time 50 goal scorer at the height of the dead puck era and he's got that to hang his hat on.

Ironically, all he had to do was tread water at the end of his career in Pittsburgh and he's probably got the minimum-threshold numbers to have a strong HHOF case. He went out as a PPG player, so with another season or two on Crosby's wing and maybe a decent post-season run we'd have the narrative (accurate or not) about him being a "savvy veteran who showed Sid the ropes when he came into the league". I wrote a hypothetical post on some thread on here a number of years ago where I speculated on what that situation could look like season-by-season. Might dig it up later...

 

[The Pale King]

Speaking of 50 goal seasons, can anyone enlighten me as to what happened in 1996-97, when Palffy put up a career high 48 goals, but only 6 (six!) were on the powerplay? It's sandwiched by two years of 17 PPG. He had 38 at even-strength (the league leader Tkachuk had 41) and just a couple extra goals on the power play and he's got himself a 50 goal season.

Whatever setup the Islanders were using Milbury that season had Palffy shifting to more of a passing role on the powerplay (6 goals and 15 assists with the extra man, vs 38 and 25 at EV). It looks like just 21 of his 90 points were with the extra man. Without summoning PNEP, that seems like a very low percentage for a guy with 90 points.

Palffy definitely excelled off the rush, he's in that next tier of guys below McDavid and Bure for me when he enters the zone with speed and 1 or zero defensemen back, but he could be very effective on the powerplay as well (evidenced by the surrounding seasons). Such a weird oddity, and one that cost him his best shot at 50 goals.

 

[Felidae]

Didn't Hossa call him the most talented Slovakian hockey player ever?

I know hockey players are generous with their comments but that might actually be close to the truth. Other than Stastny who's the clear Number one, only Hossa himself can be argued as more talented.

 

[MadArcand]

Didn't Hossa call him the most talented Slovakian hockey player ever?

I know hockey players are generous with their comments but that might actually be close to the truth. Other than Stastny who's the clear Number one, only Hossa himself can be argued as more talented.

Palffy was clearly more talented than Hossa (and so were Bondra and Gaborik), Hossa excelled more in the mental game, defensive ability and intangibles (things that Palffy was lacking in). In fact on pure talent alone I think Palffy beats Stastny without any problems as well.

 

[MS]

Goal per games finish to add to the ppg above:


Goals Per Game
1996-97 NHL 0.60 (8th)
1997-98 NHL 0.55 (6th)
2000-01 NHL 0.52 (9th)
2001-02 NHL 0.51 (5th)
2002-03 NHL 0.49 (9th)

His production was borderline elite in and of itself, but any discussion of Palffy has to include the context of the linemates he played with in his career, which have to be some of the worst of any top talent in NHL history.

His first couple elite offensive seasons in NYI were with Travis Green - a 30-40 point middle-6 grinder - as his C and his last elite season was with Derek Armstrong. In between, he had one season with a late-career resurgent Luc Robitaille on his line and other than that his best linemate was probably the disappointing mid-career version of Robert Reichel. And it wasn't like he was playing on teams where he had top offensive D of the era like Leetch/Lidstrom/Zubov pushing the puck up to him, either.

There's probably some alternate timeline where he wins an Art Ross or a Richard playing on a good team with a top C.

 

[Regal]

His production was borderline elite in and of itself, but any discussion of Palffy has to include the context of the linemates he played with in his career, which have to be some of the worst of any top talent in NHL history.

His first couple elite offensive seasons in NYI were with Travis Green - a 30-40 point middle-6 grinder - as his C and his last elite season was with Derek Armstrong. In between, he had one season with a late-career resurgent Luc Robitaille on his line and other than that his best linemate was probably the disappointing mid-career version of Robert Reichel. And it wasn't like he was playing on teams where he had top offensive D of the era like Leetch/Lidstrom/Zubov pushing the puck up to him, either.

There's probably some alternate timeline where he wins an Art Ross or a Richard playing on a good team with a top C.

I’d say his linemates in LA were good for 3 seasons. Robitaille - Stumpel - Palffy for two seasons, and the LAPD line with Allison and Deadmarsh for a year were both pretty strong. Blake was also behind him for 2 of those years, and young Visnovsky and Schneider for a bit as well. No Leetch, but still some decent offensive support.

I feel like he was a bit like a David Pastrnak where better linemates led to a better line, but not necessarily much better production, and he seemed to produce regardless. The one year in 00-01 was his biggest spike in per game production, finishing 4th, with the team finishing 6th in goals, Robitaille 16th in points per game, and Stumpel and Blake nearly a point per game with missed time. But even still he was quite a bit behind Sakic and Jagr in points per game. I could see him win a St.Louis in ‘04 type Art Ross, but I’m not sure if he had the talent to win a competitive one

 

[Regal]

Speaking of 50 goal seasons, can anyone enlighten me as to what happened in 1996-97, when Palffy put up a career high 48 goals, but only 6 (six!) were on the powerplay? It's sandwiched by two years of 17 PPG. He had 38 at even-strength (the league leader Tkachuk had 41) and just a couple extra goals on the power play and he's got himself a 50 goal season.

Whatever setup the Islanders were using Milbury that season had Palffy shifting to more of a passing role on the powerplay (6 goals and 15 assists with the extra man, vs 38 and 25 at EV). It looks like just 21 of his 90 points were with the extra man. Without summoning PNEP, that seems like a very low percentage for a guy with 90 points.

Palffy definitely excelled off the rush, he's in that next tier of guys below McDavid and Bure for me when he enters the zone with speed and 1 or zero defensemen back, but he could be very effective on the powerplay as well (evidenced by the surrounding seasons). Such a weird oddity, and one that cost him his best shot at 50 goals.

I feel like this might be somewhat more common than we’d think due to just random variance. Selanne is one in the same time period that comes to mind, where he had 52 goals in ‘98 and 47 in ‘99, but his splits were 41ES-10PP and 22ES-25PP the two years. We also see this with Bure in his back to back 60 goal seasons (40-13 and 31-25 splits), and in his back to back high 50 seasons in Florida (45-11 and 35-19),

 

[Dingo]

glad to see everyone respecting Zigmund!

Adding to the mediocre linemates thing (Allison and Deadmarsh is a solid pair of players.... no doubt why his numbers matched best against the league those years), Palffy played essentially ALL of his career in a time when guys his size did NOT shine, and mostly just didnt even make the show.

If we could magic the top 20 players from back then i to the game now, and I say this as about the biggest Forsberg fan there is, there is a decent chance that Palffy, Bure and Kariya put up better numbers than Forsberg and probably come very close to Jagr, too.

That those three guys were as good as they were at the size they were in that day... and for Bure and Palffy, the lack of great teammates also is glaring..... well.......

Yes, Palffy was elite. Solidly. Panarin at the low end, I think... probably Patrick Kane at the high end.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i guess the way i’d put it is, if he played now instead if being drafted in 91 and playing his prime in the DPE, he’d be a lot closer to marner than debrincat.

p kane i’d say is a little lofty.

 

[MadLuke]

If we could magic the top 20 players from back then i to the game now, and I say this as about the biggest Forsberg fan there is, there is a decent chance that Palffy, Bure and Kariya put up better numbers than Forsberg and probably come very close to Jagr, too.

Lot of people say the other way around, imagine Lindros-Jagr-Lemieux now that you cannot hook... I am a bit agnostic here, has hooking as a strategy was not really a good one against strong and powerful player (Bure was one of those), so maybe it did advantage them that teams tried to slow them down like that.

But I feel this is underrating Jagr a little bit, depending what you mean by very close, from 1996 to 2003

PPG:
Jagr....: 1.43
Forsberg: 1.29
Kariya..: 1.19
Palffy..: 1.08
Bure....: 1.06

We had some preview of outside the dpe in 1996 and in 2006, old Jagr in 2006
Jagr.....: 1.5
Forsberg.: 1.25
kariya...: 1.04
palffy...: 1.0

He was a good step above the rest and would have been in any era imo.
Forsberg can be more arguable, if we talk season total, if we talk per game production, any era, he would probably still outscore them if not put similar number at worst.. Kariya is a bit of what if because of the injuries early on that maybe does not happen if you re-roll the dice, but while very young in nhl seasons he started to play in the nhl a bit late for near first overall pick.

He could have been near his peak at 21.

 

[Dingo]

Lot of people say the other way around, imagine Lindros-Jagr-Lemieux now that you cannot hook... I am a bit agnostic here, has hooking as a strategy was not really a good one against strong and powerful player (Bure was one of those), so maybe it did advantage them that teams tried to slow them down like that.

But I feel this is underrating Jagr a little bit, depending what you mean by very close, from 1996 to 2003

PPG:
Jagr....: 1.43
Forsberg: 1.29
Kariya..: 1.19
Palffy..: 1.08
Bure....: 1.06

We had some preview of outside the dpe in 1996 and in 2006, old Jagr in 2006
Jagr.....: 1.5
Forsberg.: 1.25
kariya...: 1.04
palffy...: 1.0

He was a good step above the rest and would have been in any era imo.
Forsberg can be more arguable, if we talk season total, if we talk per game production, any era, he would probably still outscore them if not put similar number at worst.. Kariya is a bit of what if because of the injuries early on that maybe does not happen if you re-roll the dice, but while very young in nhl seasons he started to play in the nhl a bit late for near first overall pick.

He could have been near his peak at 21.

Kariya and Palffy were all but done by 2006

Yes, Forsberg and Jagr would have been even more productive now, but hooks and holds werent holding them back AS MUCH as the smaller players, i dont think.

Ray Whitney is a good example of someone, at a lower level, who did much better once obstruction was removed. A guy like Iginla is an example of another guy who did well in either era.

I think if you put a 5'10, 180lb guy like Palffy on a GOOD team, with even one great linemate, in today's game, that he would be really in the hunt for Art Rosses. So would Forsberg and Jagr, though.