Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[WaitingForThatCab]

I think there would be a lot less acrimony and argument on this topic if certain fans could just be honest about what's going on here.

People claiming that Mark Stone is just miraculously healed at the start of the playoffs every post-season (and not having his MRIs scheduled very conveniently to manage availability) are just insulting everyone's intelligence.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I think what will happen is you'll be required to miss the opening round entirely

Even that is better than the rules they have in place now.

 

[TheBeard]

A vast majority of fans have an issue with it? Where is the evidence? There could easily be a lot of fans that don’t participate in this discussion because they simply don’t care. As a result, you just see the comments from the fans that care the most.

Your evidence is OF the fans on social media who choose to chime in, a VAST majority of them are skeptical and unhappy with the manner of how Vegas operates. My assumption (MINE) is that the same ratio applies for those who choose not to ramble on social media like the rest of us.

Look at the injuries the players on the Florida Panthers played with in the playoffs. Guys were seriously hurt with injuries that would cost them significant time in the regular season, but they were ironmen in the postseason. Stone also broke his wrist in the Finals. He played through it. In the regular season he wouldn’t.

Playing injured while already in the playoffs, where there is no cap discrepancy is a completely different story. This is the major issue with the whole thing - a player subjectively opting to play when it's advantageous when they also would sit out feeling the exact same way when it's also advantageous to do so. It's no longer at the advice of doctors. It's now at the advice of what's best for the team.

 

[Oilslick941611]

Speak for yourself.... I dont have an asterisk on any of those.

I wouldn't put one if they actually cheated, like the Houston Astros in 2017.

 

[Slats432]

Hall 1st overall
RNH 1st overall
Yak 1st overall
Nurse 7th overall
Drai 3rd overall
McD 1st overall
Pulj 4th overall
Bouch 10th overall
Broberg 8th overall

I am sure everyone appreciates your contribution to this conversation although no one knows what the hell you are talking about.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Hall 1st overall
RNH 1st overall
Yak 1st overall
Nurse 7th overall
Drai 3rd overall
McD 1st overall
Pulj 4th overall
Bouch 10th overall
Broberg 8th overall

Not sure I follow, seems like nothing do with post you quoted, can you expand.

 

[Ford Prefect]

A player on LTIR also still counts against the cap. It's just that part of his salary can be replaced by someone else.

Really? This happens all the time. Guys get hurt, come back from injury, they practice for a bit, get more involved, start taking contact, get back up to speed to play. They don't hit the ice on Tuesday and practice and then jump into the lineup and play Wednesday. That's because there's a huge difference between "actively practice and participate in team activities" and "playing in a game."


See point above re: how players on LTIR still count against the cap.

In the current situation? Yes. In other situations, where a player may land on LTIR and doesn't hit the 10-game, 24-day threshold until Game 82? How do you propose the player "come off LTIR" to play in Game 82, yet still satisfy the requirements for having been on LTIR?

Again, the argument isn't that they need to play in game 82; they just need to have a cap compliant roster for game 82, not playing injured players. Same as if the player was on regular IR (missing a minimum of 7 days). They wouldn't be placed on LTIR on game 72 or 23 days before the end of the season. Reason being that the team does not (theoretically) need the extra cap space from that point on.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

All of these are on the presumption that the player was placed on LTIR within the last month of the schedule. That's not the case, as if they were placed on LTIR over the last month, they could have not been LTIRed at the trade deadline, when most of the moves that result in exploitation occur, or at some point near the end of the season where their LTIR relief is relatively small. Any other point in the season they would have been healthy and counted then, meaning the team was compliant. As stated above, if they are healthy enough to be activated on game 1 or the first round of the playoffs, they should be counted as part of the team's salary structure for the last day of the season.

You're drawing up a solution that deals with one specific scenario, which then has to apply to other scenarios that aren't going to be like that. Unless, you want to try and envision every possible scenario and then have a custom solution for it - which, good luck with that.

And, in the end, all these solutions you come up with have to be approved by the NHLPA. Which, for the 113,004th time, I'm telling you and everyone else with these great ideas: the NHLPA is never agreeing to a rule that
* Sees a player prohibited from playing in the playoffs, whether it's Game 1 of Round 1 or Game 7 of the Finals, where the player would have been 100% eligible to play in Game 82 of the regular season, and
* Forces a player to return to the lineup in order to play in the playoffs when the player is still unable to play due to injury.

What it boils down to is the general feeling that teams exploit the intention of the rule.

Feelings don't matter. Facts do.

Holding out players that are otherwise healthy. Remember the Weber/Parise/Suter deals? Those contracts were an exploitation of the AAV requirement. It was recognized as such and changed to 7/8 year max extensions with limited backdiving of the contracts.

And, as I've pointed out, that "problem" was "fixed" and yet I can still go out and sign a 35-year old to an 8-year, max frontloaded contract, he plays 4 years and then retires, and I never have to pay back the cap savings I realized in the 4 years he was playing. Still a cap-circumventing contract, just not as bad, but we're ignoring that because hooray, we got rid of all the 13-year deals! when the real problem was "13 year deals that took a guy out to age 41, 42, 43 when he very likely wouldn't be playing any longer."

I've said this I don't know how many times: fix the actual problem with an actual solution. Don't "fix" a "problem" that doesn't really solve the problem, but creates more problems you never think about and don't bother to solve for.

I think what you're seeing is something similar that some people feel betrays the spirit of the rule, though there doesn't seem to be an appetite for changing it (at least at the NHL level).

You're so close to getting it.

 

[Ol' Jase]

A player on LTIR also still counts against the cap. It's just that part of his salary can be replaced by someone else.

Really? This happens all the time. Guys get hurt, come back from injury, they practice for a bit, get more involved, start taking contact, get back up to speed to play. They don't hit the ice on Tuesday and practice and then jump into the lineup and play Wednesday. That's because there's a huge difference between "actively practice and participate in team activities" and "playing in a game."


See point above re: how players on LTIR still count against the cap.

In the current situation? Yes. In other situations, where a player may land on LTIR and doesn't hit the 10-game, 24-day threshold until Game 82? How do you propose the player "come off LTIR" to play in Game 82, yet still satisfy the requirements for having been on LTIR?

There is no need to have a player on LTIR when they are actively practicing and getting in game shape return to action. Absolutely none.

That player is no longer "out long-term". His return is imminent and the rules regarding short-term IR should apply.

The current rule has a loophole. The idea that there shouldn't even be a discussion to close that loophole speaks more to the advantages of it and less to the purpose of the rule in the first place.

 

[TheBeard]

Also, the average fan on this forum probably knows more about hockey and topics involving the salary cap than the average fan in general, but even here I see comments from people saying things like Stone is faking it or Stone will be 100% on game 1.

If he's skating with the team and practicing then he should be off LTIR. If he's getting into game shape ten days to two weeks prior to the playoffs starting then either the team is putting him at risk or he'll be 100% healthy by the playoffs.

And, in the end, all these solutions you come up with have to be approved by the NHLPA. Which, for the 113,004th time, I'm telling you and everyone else with these great ideas: the NHLPA is never agreeing to a rule that
* Sees a player prohibited from playing in the playoffs, whether it's Game 1 of Round 1 or Game 7 of the Finals, where the player would have been 100% eligible to play in Game 82 of the regular season, and
* Forces a player to return to the lineup in order to play in the playoffs when the player is still unable to play due to injury.

Expanded rosters for playoffs but teams still can only ice a roster consistent with the regular season roster. They can still carry over 20 extra million or so however they're players sitting in the press box.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Again, the argument isn't that they need to play in game 82; they just need to have a cap compliant roster for game 82, not playing injured players. Same as if the player was on regular IR (missing a minimum of 7 days). They wouldn't be placed on LTIR on game 72 or 23 days before the end of the season. Reason being that the team does not (theoretically) need the extra cap space from that point on.

I can have a cap compliant roster for Game 82 whose sum of cap hits exceeds the cap because I've saved money earlier in the season to acquire players later in the season. Using LTIR, not using LTIR, ... doesn't matter. I can have that roster, and it's perfectly valid to play in Game 82.

What you and others want to say is "oh, but now it's the playoffs - that roster you used in Game 82? It's no longer legal, you have to park guys to fit under this new cap." And I'm telling you and everyone proposing that: the NHLPA is NEVER allowing any players who could have validly played in Game 82 to be forced not to play in Game 1 for that reason.

 

[Golden_Jet]

There is no need to have a player on LTIR when they are actively practicing and getting in game shape return to action. Absolutely none.

Huh, if a player has missed 8 games and 20 days, and has been cleared to go on the ice in a non contact jersey, or ramping up to come back, still cannot come off LTIR.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

There is no need to have a player on LTIR when they are actively practicing and getting in game shape return to action. Absolutely none.

OK. Go tell teams and the NHLPA "once a player is practicing, they're good enough to play and they have to come off LTIR."

Especially go tell players who are injured, who have just returned to practicing "oh, you're practicing? Then obviously you're good enough to play in a game."

Let me know how far you get with that.

 

[TheBeard]

Huh, if a player has missed 8 games and 20 days, and has been cleared to go on the ice in a non contact jersey, or ramping up to come back, still cannot come off LTIR.

that's because of the ten game/21 day min. Stone's missed far more than that.

 

[Golden_Jet]

that's because of the ten game/21 day min. Stone's missed far more than that.

Poster was talking in generalities not Stone, oh and thanks tips lol.
FYI 24 days

 

[TheBeard]

Poster was talking in generalities not Stone,
FYI 24 days

Far, however in Stone's case, if he's practicing then he should be taken off LTIR. Team's choice still to play him or not. Hell, they don't even have to give up a roster spot if he's not ready. Just keep him on IR.

 

[Ol' Jase]

OK. Go tell teams and the NHLPA "once a player is practicing, they're good enough to play and they have to come off LTIR."

Especially go tell players who are injured, who have just returned to practicing "oh, you're practicing? Then obviously you're good enough to play in a game."

Let me know how far you get with that.

You seem to be forgetting the fact that resuming practice for a player on LTIR requires medical clearance. The player has been deemed medically fit to resume hockey activities.

Once that clearance is given, what logical reason exists to allow that player to stay on LTIR? Other than to facilitate the situation we have right now.

It is a simple way to close the loophole that can be exploited...as it has been...by the same team...with the same player...three years in a row.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Expanded rosters for playoffs but teams still can only ice a roster consistent with the regular season roster. They can still carry over 20 extra million or so however they're players sitting in the press box.

Let me say this for the 99,999th time: if a GM has a roster whose sum of cap hits is $85 million in Game 82 where the cap is $83.5 million, but he saved money earlier in the season to have that roster and it's perfectly legal under the cap, there is no way that GM is going to let someone come in and say "hey - that roster you saved to build? Yeah, f*** you - it's now illegal for the playoffs, park guys in the press box."

If you're proposing that, then there's no reason to have any allowance for cap savings and you should ask for a rule that teams have to strictly stay under the cap at all times in the regular season, period, and that "savings" is no longer a thing. And if you're going to do that, understand that you've wiped out much of the ability of teams to make moves, especially late-season and going into the trade deadline unless they're strictly dollar-for-dollar moves, given that most GMs wedge their teams up against the cap from the very start of training camp.

And if you really want that, you've just made the cap system even harder than it currently is. So, ask yourself if that's what you really want to have.

Far, however in Stone's case, if he's practicing then he should be taken off LTIR. Team's choice still to play him or not. Hell, they don't even have to give up a roster spot if he's not ready. Just keep him on IR.

You can't take a guy off LTIR and just have him on IR.

I don't know how else to say this, without that emphasis. There's no allowance for it in the CBA. If you want to argue there should be, fine - but I think you really need to be careful about what you're asking for, because there's potential abuses with that approach, too.

 

[Oilslick941611]

Huh?

I believe that person just owned all oilers fans and now we can no longer participate in any conversations involving other teams. We have been shamed, it's time for us to commit seppuku.

 

[Nostradumbass]

The NHLPA is NEVER signing off on some idea that forces players to play when they wouldn't be medically cleared, just to be eligible to play in the playoffs.

Seriously, people - think about this a little. Quit proposing ideas that are complete non-starters.

You don’t have to play, you can be moved from LTIR to IR if you’re going to be good for the playoffs but still hurt.

 

[Oilslick941611]

Let me say this for the 99,999th time: if a GM has a roster whose sum of cap hits is $85 million in Game 82 where the cap is $83.5 million, but he saved money earlier in the season to have that roster and it's perfectly legal under the cap, there is no way that GM is going to let someone come in and say "hey - that roster you saved to build? Yeah, f*** you - it's now illegal for the playoffs, park guys in the press box."

If you're proposing that, then there's no reason to have any allowance for cap savings and you should ask for a rule that teams have to strictly stay under the cap at all times in the regular season, period, and that "savings" is no longer a thing. And if you're going to do that, understand that you've wiped out much of the ability of teams to make moves, especially late-season and going into the trade deadline unless they're strictly dollar-for-dollar moves, given that most GMs wedge their teams up against the cap from the very start of training camp.

And if you really want that, you've just made the cap system even harder than it currently is. So, ask yourself if that's what you really want to have.


You can't take a guy off LTIR and just have him on IR.

I don't know how else to say this, without that emphasis. There's no allowance for it in the CBA. If you want to argue there should be, fine - but I think you really need to be careful about what you're asking for, because there's potential abuses with that approach, too.

dude you are clearly arguing semantics here and splitting the slightest of hairs. People are talking about a healthy player being kept on LTIR until the playoffs to hide the cap hit until the first game of the playoffs.

 

[sting101]

Good on Vegas for doing what they can to win it's not their fault that the NHL has flaw/loophole that keeps getting exploited.

Reality is it's a big deal and i'm of the opinion that it could be ratified without too much blow back from the owner/manager side the player side and for fans of teams that aren't able to use it because of the timing of good health

Simple solution would be.... to activate and dress anyone off the end of season cap compliant roster (LTIR) you must make the game day roster in the playoffs cap compliant.

You can have Unlimited Black Aces and jig the roster however you want even dress 17 skaters if works but the key is the stashed LTIR player only gets to play if you remove the cap hit for him to play again.

Simply put Vegas could activate Stone by sitting Martinez and not having to account for a 23 man roster but just the 20 game day players.

Not sure why this would be so hard to implement. Just my 2C

 

[Ted Hoffman]

You don’t have to play, you can be moved from LTIR to IR if you’re going to be good for the playoffs but still hurt.

JFC, I'm out of ways to explain you can't be moved from LTIR back to IR.

 

[TheBeard]

I don't know how else to say this, without that emphasis. There's no allowance for it in the CBA. If you want to argue there should be, fine - but I think you really need to be careful about what you're asking for, because there's potential abuses with that approach, too.

Then create LTIR and IR spots designated to return vs season ending.

You seem to be someone who gets off on shitting on peoples ideas without offering a shred of constructive suggestions. You're like the guy that doesn't vote, but rambles on to everywhere that the system sucks so why bother? You're as much a part of the problem as anything. Either don't be a smug asshole to everyone by responding to people looking for alternatives or man up and offer something that's good for the game since you act like you know the CBA and the NHLPA like you wrote it or something.

Good on Vegas for doing what they can to win it's not their fault that the NHL has flaw/loophole that keeps getting exploited.

Don't say flaws or loopholes or @Ted Hoffman will write a personal dissertation.

 

[Ol' Jase]

JFC, I'm out of ways to explain you can't be moved from LTIR back to IR.

JFC, we are talking about possible solutions to what has become extremely suspect LTIR situations.

Solutions that can easily be implemented at a NHL BOG meeting and ratification from the NHLPA.

Whether it WOULD happen is another discussion. This weirdly obtuse view point of yours that "it can't be done so don't try" it is, frankly, quite bizarre.

On an unrelated note, what team do you cheer for?