Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Ted Hoffman]

dude you are clearly arguing semantics here and splitting the slightest of hairs. People are talking about a healthy player being kept on LTIR until the playoffs to hide the cap hit until the first game of the playoffs.

I'm arguing that what people want has to have a solution that makes sense and doesn't cause unintended problems.

I'm also arguing that what people want as a solution, which has been proposed 2,024 times now, is never getting approved by the NHLPA. Like, never f***ing evar.

I'm not saying that a guy sitting on LTIR until the end of the season and then popping into the lineup for Game 1 of the playoffs is a beautiful thing, completely laudable, signs of some divine miracle. I think it's something that can (has, will in the future) be gamed by teams. I'm also saying the NHL clearly doesn't give that much of a shit about it, so continuing to cry and whine and complain about it is wasted energy, and people need to realize how the game is getting played and adapt to that and overcome all these perceived obstacles to winning.

But, if someone wants to come with a solution, come up with a solution to the problem that's feasible. Otherwise, you might as well say "a player on LTIR at the end of the season has to go to the opposite Mars to show he can parallax through an n-dimensional field with cardinal orthogonality while wielding a -3 scimitar comprised of oranges, herrings, an alternate solution to Fermat's Last Theorem and the number 11 before he can play in the playoffs" because it makes just as much sense and has just as much of a chance of happening.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Then create LTIR and IR spots designated to return vs season ending.

OK.

You're going to get the NHLPA to agree to "season-ending LTIR" that completely excludes the possibility of a player coming back at any point in the season, even if it's deep in the playoffs? I ... don't see that happening, but I'll play along here.

You're going to get the NHLPA to agree to different accounting if it's "season-ending LTIR" vs. "ordinary LTIR?" Good luck with that.

Don't say flaws or loopholes or @Ted Hoffman will write a personal dissertation.

If people came up with less shitty ideas - and especially the same shitty idea 1,313 times - I wouldn't critique them.

TIA

 

[Ol' Jase]

I'm arguing that what people want has to have a solution that makes sense and doesn't cause unintended problems.

I'm also arguing that what people want as a solution, which has been proposed 2,024 times now, is never getting approved by the NHLPA. Like, never f***ing evar.

I'm not saying that a guy sitting on LTIR until the end of the season and then popping into the lineup for Game 1 of the playoffs is a beautiful thing, completely laudable, signs of some divine miracle. I think it's something that can (has, will in the future) be gamed by teams. I'm also saying the NHL clearly doesn't give that much of a shit about it, so continuing to cry and whine and complain about it is wasted energy, and people need to realize how the game is getting played and adapt to that and overcome all these perceived obstacles to winning.

But, if someone wants to come with a solution, come up with a solution to the problem that's feasible. Otherwise, you might as well say "a player on LTIR at the end of the season has to go to the opposite Mars to show he can parallax through an n-dimensional field with cardinal orthogonality while wielding a -3 scimitar comprised of oranges, herrings, an alternate solution to Fermat's Last Theorem and the number 11 before he can play in the playoffs" because it makes just as much sense and has just as much of a chance of happening.

Ok, here’s a solution.

Players on LTIR require clearances and monitoring on their injury progress from independent doctors employed by the league and not team physicians.

You keep referring to these new, unintended issues that any changes would create, but have failed to mention even one of them.

 

[leer2006]

How about a minimum games played during the season to qualify for the playoffs. I’m sure something can be worked around this.

 

[AvroArrow]

I'm arguing that what people want has to have a solution that makes sense and doesn't cause unintended problems.

I'm also arguing that what people want as a solution, which has been proposed 2,024 times now, is never getting approved by the NHLPA. Like, never f***ing evar.

I'm not saying that a guy sitting on LTIR until the end of the season and then popping into the lineup for Game 1 of the playoffs is a beautiful thing, completely laudable, signs of some divine miracle. I think it's something that can (has, will in the future) be gamed by teams. I'm also saying the NHL clearly doesn't give that much of a shit about it, so continuing to cry and whine and complain about it is wasted energy, and people need to realize how the game is getting played and adapt to that and overcome all these perceived obstacles to winning.

But, if someone wants to come with a solution, come up with a solution to the problem that's feasible. Otherwise, you might as well say "a player on LTIR at the end of the season has to go to the opposite Mars to show he can parallax through an n-dimensional field with cardinal orthogonality while wielding a -3 scimitar comprised of oranges, herrings, an alternate solution to Fermat's Last Theorem and the number 11 before he can play in the playoffs" because it makes just as much sense and has just as much of a chance of happening.

I'm sure if a team lost in the cup final to an opponent that circumvented the cap, they'd be all for cap circumvention and allowing guys on LTIR to magically come back at any point

It's horrible for the game. You think if the Panthers players had a choice, they would want Vegas to circumvent the cap against them in the finals ? I don't.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

A vast majority of fans have an issue with it. There's really not much disputing that unless you don't think social media is indicative of general sentiment.


Orrr players aren't still injured but understand the business of the game. Again, somehow Stone is an absolute ironman in playoffs despite opponents knowingly targeted obvious weak spots. He's yet to miss a playoff game his team has been involved in. Anyone rushing back wouldn't be able to handle the constant beating .

You're misunderstanding my point.

Anybody who has played contact sports knows that you're always "injured". The severity will vary. There are probably many players on NHL teams who did not miss time this season who could likely pass the scrutiny to be placed on LTIR for some sort of injury that they opted to play through.

The point is that outside of obvious things like their leg still being snapped in half, or head injuries that are now under scrutiny, injuries are not black/white and players can choose to play hurt. I guarantee you that Stone isn't 100 percent when he returns for the playoffs, but the risk/reward equation is much more favourable to return for the playoffs than to return for regular season games when Vegas has a reasonable chance of making the playoffs without him.

 

[AvroArrow]

How about a minimum games played during the season to qualify for the playoffs. I’m sure something can be worked around this.

Just activate the guy by game 82 ? You expect him back, ok cool activate him and we're all good. If you don't expect him back, cool, add guys by deadline. But you don't get to do both.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

How about a minimum games played during the season to qualify for the playoffs. I’m sure something can be worked around this.

It doesn't fix things because in most of the cases people complain about, the player did play during the regular season.

Kucherov is the only situation I recall where a player and team gamed LTIR so that a player would not play at all during the season.

I think that requiring a player to play 1 regular season game to qualify for playoffs would be fair, but people wouldn't be satisfied with it because it wouldn't do anything to stop this situation because it usually occurs with players hurt in season.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I'm sure if a team lost in the cup final to an opponent that circumvented the cap, they'd be all for cap circumvention and allowing guys on LTIR to magically come back at any point

It's horrible for the game. You think if the Panthers players had a choice, they would want Vegas to circumvent the cap against them in the finals ? I don't.

I think the Panthers got their asses beat by a Vegas team that was, by all accounts - and it's been noted a number of times now - playing with a roster whose sum of cap hits was under the cap for every game of the playoffs.

I'm also pretty sure they'd have gotten their asses beaten even without Mark Stone in the lineup.

 

[Ol' Jase]

OK. Go tell teams and the NHLPA "once a player is practicing, they're good enough to play and they have to come off LTIR."

Especially go tell players who are injured, who have just returned to practicing "oh, you're practicing? Then obviously you're good enough to play in a game."

Let me know how far you get with that.

So you’re suggesting that a player on LTIR is considered “out indefinitely” and cannot MEDICALLY play a game under any circumstances suddenly is ready to go after two weeks of practice and, at the snap of a finger, goes from out indefinitely to ready to go for Game 1 of a playoff series?

You don’t see how easy that is to manipulate?

If you could just admit how much this situation helps your team out, it would lend a lot to your credibility. At least be honest about it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You seem to be forgetting the fact that resuming practice for a player on LTIR requires medical clearance. The player has been deemed medically fit to resume hockey activities.

Once that clearance is given, what logical reason exists to allow that player to stay on LTIR? Other than to facilitate the situation we have right now.

It is a simple way to close the loophole that can be exploited...as it has been...by the same team...with the same player...three years in a row.

Player is usually cleared to resume skating first, on his own, then cleared for non contact next, then cleared for contact after that. It’s rarely goes from injured straight to contact.

You don’t seem to think your arguments through much, just type the first thing that comes to mind.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Just activate the guy by game 82 ? You expect him back, ok cool activate him and we're all good. If you don't expect him back, cool, add guys by deadline. But you don't get to do both.

You can't create a rule that forces a player to return before they are ready.

The optics of that rule are bad.

At the end of the day, the entire LTIR and cap system would have to be overhauled to prevent this from happening. It's absolutely not worth it.

Think of this logically. Is this a situation where every team other than Chicago, Tampa, and Vegas are such good sportsmen that they could easily exploit this loophole to increase their odds at winning a cup, but they don't because they are run by honest men who don't want competitive advantages? No. Every team wants every competitive advantage it can get, but doesn't exploit this rule because it's nearly impossible to exploit.

Look at an equivalent cap loophole, the back diving contracts with fake years tacked onto the end. That was a legitimate loophole, and nearly every team exploited it to gain a competitive advantage. Why is every team not exploiting the LTIR-playoff loophole? It's because it's nearly impossible to do without numerous things happening that can't be planned for. Because Stone is injury prone, because he has a massive cap hit, and because Vegas is stacked enough to win regular season games without him, they can exploit that loophole. That's not a situation that can easily be manufactured, as evidenced by 90 percent of the teams not doing it.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Player is usually cleared to resume skating first, on his own, then cleared for non contact next, then cleared for contact after that. It’s rarely goes from injured straight to contact.

You don’t seem to think your arguments through much, just type the first thing that comes to mind.

I completely understand the process.

So, objectively, when a player returns to practicing, is that player considered out “indefinitely” with an unknown timeline to return? Is that player medically cleared to begin hockey activities again, or is he just giving it a go and then saying “welp, spleen is still f***ed, I’m out for a few more months.”

It’s called injury progression. There is no reason for a player who can actively practice to be considered LTIR, because that aren’t. They can easily be deemed short-term, which is exactly what they are.

 

[TheSuperElite]

Some poor fans have typed a collective 10000 words defending the Vegas Cheating Knights on this thread alone. If only the team could have won fair and square..

 

[Golden_Jet]

I completely understand the process.

So, objectively, when a player returns to practicing, is that player considered out “indefinitely” with an unknown timeline to return? Is that player medically cleared to begin hockey activities again, or is he just giving it a go and then saying “welp, spleen is still f***ed, I’m out for a few more months.”

It’s called injury progression. There is no reason for a player who can actively practice to be considered LTIR, because that aren’t. They can easily be deemed short-term, which is exactly what they are.

Are you asking when
Cleared to resume skating on their own
Cleared for non contact
Cleared for contact

 

[Ol' Jase]

Are you asking when
Cleared to resume skating on their own
Cleared for non contact
Cleared for contact

Hey, look, for the sake of objectivity, let’s amend the concept to say once the player is cleared for full practice participation, he no longer needs to be considered LTIR.

That has to make some sort of sense.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Hey, look, for the sake of objectivity, let’s amend the concept to say once the player is cleared for full practice participation, he no longer needs to be considered LTIR.

That has to make some sort of sense.

So full contact then.

 

[Ol' Jase]

So full contact then.

Let's call it active participation in team practices as any other player would be able to participate in.

 

[nturn06]

Simplest solution is to make it a fair playing field: after the deadline every team can exceed the Salary cap by lets say 10%, but players on LTIR will now count against the cap.

 

[M88K]

Simplest solution is to make it a fair playing field: after the deadline every team can exceed the Salary cap by lets say 10%, but players on LTIR will now count against the cap.

That'll never happen, players won't like escrow ballooning up, like it will if this were allowed. They already cry about high escrow as is.
It also doesn't account for multiple LTIR situation.
10% doesn't go far, if you have Makar, MacKinnon, and Landeskog all of LTIR at the same time, let alone not being able to use that 10% until a certain time in the future

 

[lwvs84]

Teams set their playoff roster at the end of game 82 and must be cap compliant as of that day. Players that finished the season in the AHL are eligible to be called up even if it goes over the cap. If Oilers feel Campbell can help and bring him up, that's fine... very different than a guy that milks an injury for an extra month or two and makes a "miracle" recovery just in time for playoffs

 

[Three On Zero]

Ok, here’s a solution.

Players on LTIR require clearances and monitoring on their injury progress from independent doctors employed by the league and not team physicians.

You keep referring to these new, unintended issues that any changes would create, but have failed to mention even one of them.

The league already does this, they’ve investigated and employed league doctors to do check ins for a a couple years now.

They did this with Kucherov, they did it with Landeskog

 

[sting101]

NFL doesn't have LTIR

You can't create a rule that forces a player to return before they are ready.

The optics of that rule are bad.

At the end of the day, the entire LTIR and cap system would have to be overhauled to prevent this from happening. It's absolutely not worth it.

Think of this logically. Is this a situation where every team other than Chicago, Tampa, and Vegas are such good sportsmen that they could easily exploit this loophole to increase their odds at winning a cup, but they don't because they are run by honest men who don't want competitive advantages? No. Every team wants every competitive advantage it can get, but doesn't exploit this rule because it's nearly impossible to exploit.

Look at an equivalent cap loophole, the back diving contracts with fake years tacked onto the end. That was a legitimate loophole, and nearly every team exploited it to gain a competitive advantage. Why is every team not exploiting the LTIR-playoff loophole? It's because it's nearly impossible to do without numerous things happening that can't be planned for. Because Stone is injury prone, because he has a massive cap hit, and because Vegas is stacked enough to win regular season games without him, they can exploit that loophole. That's not a situation that can easily be manufactured, as evidenced by 90 percent of the teams not doing it.

I think you are overstating how hard it is to do?

Even my Canucks did it in 2011 with Sami Salo having the misfortune of a well timed injury. And our assistant at the time has laughed about it in interviews how they manipulated it.

I think LTIR is a good thing as well as teams being able to eat portions of the cap to help teams be compliant and to aid in player moves for the regular season but it's complete nonsense and putting your head in the sand to say it's not a way to create a significant advantage when or if you can exploit it for playoffs.

And that's the problem. Team A stays healthy and is unable to add while team B has a couple LTIR injuries that allow them to stack a roster come playoffs and/or has superior depth because of it. It can and has been a massive advantage.

 

[Chaos2k7]

If the league does nothing this will be a thing every year moving forward.

 

[nturn06]

That'll never happen, players won't like escrow ballooning up, like it will if this were allowed. They already cry about high escrow as is.
It also doesn't account for multiple LTIR situation.
10% doesn't go far, if you have Makar, MacKinnon, and Landeskog all of LTIR at the same time, let alone not being able to use that 10% until a certain time in the future

I don't think that this would lead to escrow, since teams need to be under the cap for the first 3/4 of the season.

As to your point, if you have Makar, MacKinnon and Landerskog on LTIR all season long, you won't make the playoffs, so forget about going all in. If two of them join the LTIR late in the season, you won't exceed the cap by 10%, unless of course you pull a Tampa/Vegas.