Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Ol' Jase]

The league already does this, they’ve investigated and employed league doctors to do check ins for a a couple years now.

They did this with Kucherov, they did it with Landeskog

The NHL only conducts investigations with the use of independent doctors if there is suspicion of blatant LTIR manipulation involved. It is not a standard practice to monitor the progress on all LTIR players.

 

[Tawnos]

The NHL only conducts investigations with the use of independent doctors if there is suspicion of blatant LTIR manipulation involved. It is not a standard practice to monitor the progress on all LTIR players.

According to Daly, they investigate all LTIRs around the deadline.

 

[sting101]

2026 this will be corrected in the meantime it is what it is

 

[Ol' Jase]

According to Daly, they investigate all LTIRs around the deadline.

Trades only. Last year before the deadline, a memo was sent out regarding trading for players and stashing them on LTIR until the playoffs.

NHL to 'closely scrutinize' trades involving players on IR | TSN

The NHL sent a memo to teams Tuesday morning saying it will "closely scrutinize" trades involving injured players who are acquired with the intent of keeping them on the long-term injured reserve list until the playoffs.

www.tsn.ca

 

[Tawnos]

Trades only. Last year before the deadline, a memo was sent out regarding trading for players and stashing them on LTIR until the playoffs.

NHL to 'closely scrutinize' trades involving players on IR | TSN

The NHL sent a memo to teams Tuesday morning saying it will "closely scrutinize" trades involving injured players who are acquired with the intent of keeping them on the long-term injured reserve list until the playoffs.

www.tsn.ca

It's not just for trades, but while they ask about all of them, they only scrutinize the ones that project to be around the playoffs.

“It’s no secret that around every trade deadline we reach out to the clubs and understand their injury situation and get a sense of projected dates of return,” deputy commissioner Bill Daly said on Tuesday. “And whenever the projected date of return and LTIR is being used and the projected date of return is around the playoffs, we look into it. We deal with the clubs, we get their medical records, we employ an independent medical expert and we make sure the (details are accurate regarding) the injury. We’ve never had any issues that stemmed from that. But it’s a thorough process.”

NHL, GMs not eager to close LTIR 'loophole' despite perceived abuses

The number of teams in LTIR that are doing well in the standings explains why the majority of the league’s GMs aren't eager to close the loophole that enables them to exceed the salary cap.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[Golden_Jet]

Let's call it active participation in team practices as any other player would be able to participate in.

No you can’t, players practice in non contact jersey, while there upper body is still recuperating, but can still skate to get cardio up.
Would have to be full contact in your scenario, when thinking things through go through all the what ifs,
“Active participation” includes non contact and contact.

 

[Three On Zero]

The NHL only conducts investigations with the use of independent doctors if there is suspicion of blatant LTIR manipulation involved. It is not a standard practice to monitor the progress on all LTIR players.

NHL to closely monitor teams taking advantage of LTIR cap advantages

Seventeen of the league's 31 teams are currently utilizing LTIR to relieve cap space. But with the regular season winding down, the NHL is going to be monitoring those activities more closely.

www.sportsnet.ca

For a team/player that was investigated the year prior, you know the league will investigate again.

https://www.cbs8.com/article/sports/locked-on/lo-las-vegas/golden-knights-show/vegas-golden-knights-reportedly-cleared-cap-circumvention-mark-stone/535-b8f44e82-b7e4-4a78-8ba7-63bbd1996a18

 

[Three On Zero]

No you can’t, players practice in non contact jersey, while there upper body is still recuperating, but can still skate to get cardio up.
Would have to be full contact in your scenario, when thinking things through go through all the what ifs,
“Active participation” includes non contact and contact.

Not to mention you can still be an active participant in practices depending on the severity of injury you are recovering from, but that doesn't mean you are physically ready to play without increased risks of injury. Being able to skate doesn't mean you've fully recovered, it's essentially you rehabbing the injury still by getting up to speed. If you suffer a work place accident and start going to physio, that doesn't clear you for immediate return to work status.

 

[robertocarlos]

How can Stone not play if he's currently healthy?

 

[Ford Prefect]

That'll never happen, players won't like escrow ballooning up, like it will if this were allowed. They already cry about high escrow as is.
It also doesn't account for multiple LTIR situation.
10% doesn't go far, if you have Makar, MacKinnon, and Landeskog all of LTIR at the same time, let alone not being able to use that 10% until a certain time in the future

Escrow does not factor into this at all. Escrow is a distinctly separate issue that ensures equal parity of league revenues between the league and the players. The collective players don't earn more just because some contracts are shifted from one team to another. If team A is adding 10 million more to it's cap, that means Team B is reducing their liabilities by 10 million. Everything balances out. I suppose the only way this would be an issue is if one team is trading the rights of an unsigned player and the acquiring team signs him, that would affect escrow, but barely.

 

[Mighty Makar]

 

[TheBeard]

If people came up with less shitty ideas - and especially the same shitty idea 1,313 times - I wouldn't critique them.

Nothing personal, but you're just another nobody couch potato know-it-all like any of us. Don't act like you have anymore merit or credibility than anyone else's no matter how his your opinion of yourself is, Ted.

You're misunderstanding my point.

Anybody who has played contact sports knows that you're always "injured". The severity will vary. There are probably many players on NHL teams who did not miss time this season who could likely pass the scrutiny to be placed on LTIR for some sort of injury that they opted to play through.

The point is that outside of obvious things like their leg still being snapped in half, or head injuries that are now under scrutiny, injuries are not black/white and players can choose to play hurt. I guarantee you that Stone isn't 100 percent when he returns for the playoffs, but the risk/reward equation is much more favourable to return for the playoffs than to return for regular season games when Vegas has a reasonable chance of making the playoffs without him.

Then the point of having independent doctors decide whether or not a player should be off LTIR based on their "medical opinion" is moot.

 

[Vegas07]

You aren't looking close enough.

View attachment 852132

Sorry, that Stanley Cup is so big it’s hard to notice.

 

[Slats432]

Sorry, that Stanley Cup is so big it’s hard to notice.

All in good clean fun. Vegas gets full credit for the victory. Full credit from pushing the rules right to the boundaries that it can, resulting in something that can never be taken away from them.

That said, would be nice if the league stopped the LTIR nonsense.

 

[Nostradumbass]

JFC, I'm out of ways to explain you can't be moved from LTIR back to IR.

I am proposing a rule change, this would be included in it. I’m not sure what’s so difficult to understand.

 

[Sentinel]

If they get away with it -- good for them.

 

[zar]

People here who are brainstorming for all these valid and mostly obvious solutions to an issue that the NHL fully embraces and endorses for certain franchises is a futile exercise. The NHL is very happy if there are advantages to US markets, especially if they are in their target growth areas - the large and newer markets. It’s why they are viewed as a 2nd rate professional league.

There will never be a relocation or expansion team for any other Canadian city. It’s only a matter of time until Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary all lose their teams.

 

[ijuka]

People here who are brainstorming for all these valid and mostly obvious solutions to an issue that the NHL fully embraces and endorses for certain franchises is a futile exercise. The NHL is very happy if there are advantages to US markets, especially if they are in their target growth areas - the large and newer markets. It’s why they are viewed as a 2nd rate professional league.

There will never be a relocation or expansion team for any other Canadian city. It’s only a matter of time until Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary all lose their teams.

They need the Canadian teams so that they can take their money and use it to fund their pet projects in America.

 

[zar]

They need the Canadian teams so that they can take their money and use it to fund their pet projects in America.

with the state of the Canadian economy and the dying attendance in those fore-mentioned cities. The fans are growing tiresome of the games (pardon the pun) and are choosing to spend their decreasing entertainment money elsewhere. Younger people in Canada are become less enamoured with the game of hockey and the NHL.

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

This thread should be closed. Who gives a f.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I am proposing a rule change, this would be included in it. I’m not sure what’s so difficult to understand.

That no team is going to decide oh, yeah, we needed part of this guy's salary replaced a while back but now we don't - take him off LTIR so we don't have that flexibility any more.

I mean, I'm guessing - but I'm going to let you clarify - that in your idea, if you move a guy from LTIR to "regular" IR, you can't then put him back on LTIR later on if needed.
* If that's the case, why would anyone move a guy from LTIR back to "regular IR" and potentially handcuff themselves re: potential needed cap flexibility? They wouldn't - they'd just leave the guy on LTIR until he was able to play again.
* If you can move a guy from LTIR to "regular" IR and back as needed, ... what exactly are you accomplishing with this?

This thread should be closed. Who gives a f.

Some people do, because ... (gestures at most of 90 pages of complaining about the topic).

 

[Nostradumbass]

That no team is going to decide oh, yeah, we needed part of this guy's salary replaced a while back but now we don't - take him off LTIR so we don't have that flexibility any more.

I mean, I'm guessing - but I'm going to let you clarify - that in your idea, if you move a guy from LTIR to "regular" IR, you can't then put him back on LTIR later on if needed.
* If that's the case, why would anyone move a guy from LTIR back to "regular IR" and potentially handcuff themselves re: potential needed cap flexibility? They wouldn't - they'd just leave the guy on LTIR until he was able to play again.
* If you can move a guy from LTIR to "regular" IR and back as needed, ... what exactly are you accomplishing with this?


Some people do, because ... (gestures at most of 90 pages of complaining about the topic).

This was just for the last handful of games for the season. Presumably if they’re good enough to play in the postseason, there shouldn’t be any issue moving them to IR for a handful of games at the end of the year.

 

[wavaxa2]

LOL at bitter, jealous fans of teams that aren't deep enough to fully take advantage of LTIR rules. NHL front offices and the PA don't care about your hurt little feelings. Sucks to be you.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

This was just for the last handful of games for the season. Presumably if they’re good enough to play in the postseason, there shouldn’t be any issue moving them to IR for a handful of games at the end of the year.

What problem are you solving here?

Oh, but he'll be on IR instead of LTIR. OK, he still can't play until he's cleared, and the NHLPA isn't letting him get forced off IR and into a game under whatever bullshit pretenses. What problem is getting fixed here?

Oh, but now the team won't be able to use the guy's salary to ... so, in Game 77 a team can be completely cap-compliant with LTIR and play whatever 18+2 for the night, then for Game 78 guys on LTIR get forced off and the team has to make various roster moves to get cap compliant - including potentially moves that may deprive them of the playing services of guys in the playoffs. It's the same thing as I point out re: Game 82, cap-compliant vs. Game 1, now not-cap-compliant: you really think teams are going to be OK with that?

You're still searching for a problem to fit your solution. The solution to this oft-alleged problem is really, really simple: enforcement of existing medical protocols re: players on LTIR and the determination of when the player is or isn't able to play, not a 1-sledgehammer idea that likely screws teams who've done nothing wrong, or a 139-page treatise trying to cover every possible situation that might arise, or anything in between.

 

[Nostradumbass]

What problem are you solving here?

Oh, but he'll be on IR instead of LTIR. OK, he still can't play until he's cleared, and the NHLPA isn't letting him get forced off IR and into a game under whatever bullshit pretenses. What problem is getting fixed here?

Oh, but now the team won't be able to use the guy's salary to ... so, in Game 77 a team can be completely cap-compliant with LTIR and play whatever 18+2 for the night, then for Game 78 guys on LTIR get forced off and the team has to make various roster moves to get cap compliant - including potentially moves that may deprive them of the playing services of guys in the playoffs. It's the same thing as I point out re: Game 82, cap-compliant vs. Game 1, now not-cap-compliant: you really think teams are going to be OK with that?

You're still searching for a problem to fit your solution. The solution to this oft-alleged problem is really, really simple: enforcement of existing medical protocols re: players on LTIR and the determination of when the player is or isn't able to play, not a 1-sledgehammer idea that likely screws teams who've done nothing wrong, or a 139-page treatise trying to cover every possible situation that might arise, or anything in between.

It is solving the problem of teams sticking Mark Stone on LTIR 3 years in a row to load up for the playoffs and having him ready Game 1 and a roster that is significantly over the cap based on accrued space. The difference between TDL acquisitions and LTIR is the accrued space is used to acquire players instead of hiding them away until the playoffs so you can make significant trades.