Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[VivaLasVegas]

having poker, strip clubs and cigars play a big role in your personality.

Hey, leave me out of this.

 

[Clark4Ever]

No one should be hating on Vegas for exploiting the CBA to their advantage. They are doing whatever it takes to win, and they're doing it within the confines of the CBA.

 

[Gordy Elbows]

Rather than trying to figure out how to enforce the LTIR system and the individual medical situations, have a rule that all teams must declare their roster before the season ends for the playoffs. Therefore, if a team is planning to add a player to that roster from LTIR, someone else has to come off.

 

[HolyCrap]

No one should be hating on Vegas for exploiting the CBA to their advantage. They are doing whatever it takes to win, and they're doing it within the confines of the CBA.

Agreed. As long as other teams can do the same then it’s fine.

 

[ChanceVegas]

1/3 = small minority... You can only see such claims on hfboards.

Imagine if 1/3 of the population were murderers... It's ok, thats just a small minority.

Wait, no we are equating cap circumvention with murder? Wat?

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Gimmick franchise that's been propped up by uncle Gary since day one. The fact that they are being allowed to get away with this is further proof of how much of a joke this league is.

I can taste the salt from here.

 

[rsteen]

Rather than trying to figure out how to enforce the LTIR system and the individual medical situations, have a rule that all teams must declare their roster before the season ends for the playoffs. Therefore, if a team is planning to add a player to that roster from LTIR, someone else has to come off.

So a coach couldn't healthy scratch a player for performance in the playoffs?

 

[braunm]

No one should be hating on Vegas for exploiting the CBA to their advantage. They are doing whatever it takes to win, and they're doing it within the confines of the CBA.

I think the issue that many of us have is an ethical one-teams lying to their advantage. Blatant Lying doesn’t seem right.

 

[rsteen]

Several replies are saying that Stone either isn’t injured at all or will be 100% healthy in game 1, even though he stunk up game 1 last year and was seen on video limping in practice the next day. Are we supposed to believe he was faking it?

The fact is, every team during the playoffs has about 5 guys with injuries that would have them legitimately on LTIR during the regular season. By the Final it's probably at least half the team. We've had guys trying to play with punctured lungs, broken legs, a broken sternum etc. <"Healthy" for Game 1> is actually different from <heathly for game 82>.

 

[TheBeard]

The fact is, every team during the playoffs has about 5 guys with injuries that would have them legitimately on LTIR during the regular season. By the Final it's probably at least half the team. We've had guys trying to play with punctured lungs, broken legs, a broken sternum etc. <"Healthy" for Game 1> is actually different from <heathly for game 82>.

So then, what you're saying is players are playing on their own accord and not on the advice of doctors. I'll ask you the same hypothetical I asked the person you responded to, would Mark Stone have played in game 82 last year if the Knights needed to win to get in? The first Jets game was only 2 days later.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Rather than trying to figure out how to enforce the LTIR system and the individual medical situations, have a rule that all teams must declare their roster before the season ends for the playoffs. Therefore, if a team is planning to add a player to that roster from LTIR, someone else has to come off.

So ... every team has to maintain an Active Roster, with a limit on the number of players on it like the regular season? OK, I'll bite.

1. You're going to get the NHLPA to sign off on that? Because right now, there's no limit on the Active Roster in the playoffs.
2. What are you giving the NHLPA in return? Or, what are the owners giving up for that? Because if they're giving up "no limit on the Active Roster in the playoffs" the NHLPA is going to want something back; it's not just handing that over for free.

 

[WolfgangPuck]

I hope putting Stone on LTIR blows up in their face and Vegas misses the playoffs

 

[Ted Hoffman]

It wouldn't stop people in 2 years from saying "remember when Vegas parked Stone on LTIR in February for 3 straight years and then magically he came off LTIR at the end of the season?" while ignoring that
* In 2022, he came back with 9 games to play and Vegas missed the playoffs, and
* In 2024 in your scenario, he either did or didn't come back before the end of the season and either way Vegas still missed the playoffs.

That year in the middle would be the "proof" that the other two years were cheating.

 

[TheBeard]

It wouldn't stop people in 2 years from saying "remember when Vegas parked Stone on LTIR in February for 3 straight years and then magically he came off LTIR at the end of the season?" while ignoring that
* In 2022, he came back with 9 games to play and Vegas missed the playoffs, and
* In 2024 in your scenario, he either did or didn't come back before the end of the season and either way Vegas still missed the playoffs.

That year in the middle would be the "proof" that the other two years were cheating.

2022 the team was in desperation mode as they were in free fall and Eichel wasn’t close to ready to be the player they needed him to be. Vegas literally had to rush to put 4 players on LTIR in order to bring Stone and Martinez back. That’s already after the tried to panic sell Dadonov for his space. The plan was obviously never to bring him back in the regular season but it backfired.

 

[JaegerDice]

Its not cap circumvention if its done according to the rules.

Get mad at the GM of your favorite team for not being as cutthroat and creative as Vegas.

TL;DR Cry Moar

 

[TheBeard]

Apparently it is becoming an issue with other teams:

Will there be demand to change LTIR in next CBA? – Sportsnet.ca

 

[Canadienna]

People saying "they aren't breaking any rules" are missing the point.

IF they are/have been keeping Stone on IR longer than he needs to be, that is against the rules.

Obviously nobody here will be able to prove that, but the accusation is in fact that they are breaking the rules.

So saying "It's within the rules" is moot, and incoherent.

 

[MattMartin]

I actually love it, Tampa set the bar high.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

People saying "they aren't breaking any rules" are missing the point.

IF they are/have been keeping Stone on IR longer than he needs to be, that is against the rules.

Obviously nobody here will be able to prove that, but the accusation is in fact that they are breaking the rules.

So saying "It's within the rules" is moot, and incoherent.

Begging the question - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gordy Elbows]

So ... every team has to maintain an Active Roster, with a limit on the number of players on it like the regular season? OK, I'll bite.

1. You're going to get the NHLPA to sign off on that? Because right now, there's no limit on the Active Roster in the playoffs.
2. What are you giving the NHLPA in return? Or, what are the owners giving up for that? Because if they're giving up "no limit on the Active Roster in the playoffs" the NHLPA is going to want something back; it's not just handing that over for free.

Tough one to answer. The player contracts don’t extend beyond the regular season, so right now the playoffs are kind of a grey zone. That means there is no formal compensation structure- just a process for calculating bonuses from playoff revenues. Given that, not sure what the NHLPA would want: a playoff pool for the roster? Or ???
If hockey can manage to operate the regular season with a roster limit, then it isn’t a huge stretch to do so in the playoffs. Something could be worked out.

 

[Vegas07]

Am I missing something here?

Vegas didn’t make the playoffs in 2022. Stone has played every game the Knights have played in the playoffs since he joined the team.

He did however join the team late in that season with Vegas needing to do a bunch of LTIR juggling to get him back into the lineup in order to try and help them make the playoffs.

Yes you left out the fact that Stone wasn’t missing playoff games before he hurt his back. And he wasn’t missing half of the regular season back then.

So hypothetically then, if it was game 82 last year and Vegas needed to win it to get in, would Stone have played in that game?

You mean if Vegas needed him to win, but he didn’t play in game 81, 80, 79, etc. when the team really needed him?

 

[nhlfan9191]

Its not cap circumvention if its done according to the rules.

Get mad at the GM of your favorite team for not being as cutthroat and creative as Vegas.

TL;DR Cry Moar

Signing guys to 15 year deals was “creative” at one point. They were eventually punished. Bettman isn’t in a rush to fix a clear loophole because of the teams benefitting from it.

 

[TheBeard]

You mean if Vegas needed him to win, but he didn’t play in game 81, 80, 79, etc. when the team really needed him?

Last year? When they won the west and made the playoffs by 18 points?

They didn’t need him. My hypothetical was IF the knights were going into game 82 needing to win that game in order to just make it into the playoffs, don’t think Stone would have played?

 

[Vegas07]

3 teams were willing to make trades with the Knights. I see zero criticism of them for being involved and for refusing to “do the right thing” to “avoid helping the cheaters win.” The Knights couldn’t make those trades without any help from other teams.

Seems we are all in agreement that Calgary, Washington and San Jose deserve zero criticism enough though they made deals with the “cheaters.”

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If hockey can manage to operate the regular season with a roster limit, then it isn’t a huge stretch to do so in the playoffs. Something could be worked out.

There is a formal roster limit in the regular season. It's 23 players. That's why Injured Reserve exists: if someone is injured and you want to call someone up, you have a way for the injured player to be designated "off the Active Roster" in some way instead of having to waive them or assign them outside of the league. Same thing applies for players who need to be away from the team for personal reasons in certain situations: they're designated as such, it opens a roster spot the team can use.

Saying "well, something can be worked out" sounds simple, and then you realize the NHLPA still has a provision in 13.12 that limits teams to 4 recalls after the trade deadline without requiring emergency conditions and that it's still there despite the NHL trying to talk the NHLPA into getting rid of it completely or allowing some larger number of recalls. It doesn't matter that it [still] doesn't make sense to you, me or anyone else: all that matters is that it [still] makes sense to the NHLPA and it's [still] not giving that up without something else in return from the owners.