Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[AvroArrow]

Tough one to answer. The player contracts don’t extend beyond the regular season, so right now the playoffs are kind of a grey zone. That means there is no formal compensation structure- just a process for calculating bonuses from playoff revenues. Given that, not sure what the NHLPA would want: a playoff pool for the roster? Or ???
If hockey can manage to operate the regular season with a roster limit, then it isn’t a huge stretch to do so in the playoffs. Something could be worked out.

It's really simple, some easy solutions

1) Any player that is not activated off LTIR by game 82 is ineligible to play in the playoffs. You're expecting him back ? Make the necessary roster adjustments. You're not expecting him back ? Cool, take that cap relief and add a few players that equal or are near equal his salary so that you have a fair chance.

2) IR vs season ending LTIR. Players on IR count towards the cap but can be brought back, players on season ending LTIR are not counted towards the cap but cannot play this season.

3) Players coming off LTIR must be activated X amount of days prior to playing like the NFL. 21-28 days whatever you want that time frame to be.

4) For the Vegas/Tampa fans that claim it's not an unfair advantage, get rid of the cap, who cares if someone spends 10-20M more than you on their roster ? Its fair.

 

[rsteen]

So then, what you're saying is players are playing on their own accord and not on the advice of doctors.

Ever seen a post-playoff injury report? If impartial doctors could block players from dressing in the playoffs because they're too injured, by the Final both teams would be ECHL callups. But the NHL wants and even glorifies players playing injured "because it's the Cup".

 

[TheBeard]

Ever seen a post-playoff injury report? If impartial doctors could block players from dressing in the playoffs because they're too injured, by the Final both teams would be ECHL callups. But the NHL wants and even glorifies players playing injured "because it's the Cup".

So then the issue isn’t whether or not the players are injured it’s whether or not they’re worth playing through.

 

[TheBeard]

3 teams were willing to make trades with the Knights. I see zero criticism of them for being involved and for refusing to “do the right thing” to “avoid helping the cheaters win.” The Knights couldn’t make those trades without any help from other teams.

Seems we are all in agreement that Calgary, Washington and San Jose deserve zero criticism enough though they made deals with the “cheaters.”

Why would they? It’s within the rules and it’s not gonna change the fortune of those three teams. If I know a girl who’s cheating on her guy, then I may as well get my piece of the pie since she’s gonna find someone else anyways.

 

[JaegerDice]

Signing guys to 15 year deals was “creative” at one point. They were eventually punished. Bettman isn’t in a rush to fix a clear loophole because of the teams benefitting from it.

There isnt a single team owner thats going to vote against the contingency of a player going down to injury. No team is going to vote for a system where ‘you’re 2C just went down and you’re at the cap, you’re ****ed all year’.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The Kovalchuk thing was wayyyy different, signing a massive contract nobody expected him to play out anywhere near the end that would jump from 11 mil per year to league minimum for several years.

Right, it was OK if it was just the league minimum for a few years. Like, the 40-43 years. Or that salary was as much as $1 million, but that went on for a few years. Like, the 40-43 years.

Some cheating was OK. Too much cheating wasn't. Someone just drew an arbitrary line to decide which was which, and then everyone decided "if you have a 9-year contract, regardless of how old the guy was when he signed it, that's cheating ... but if you sign him to 6 years at 37 and front-load it as much as you can, that's not cheating."

Signing guys to 15 year deals was “creative” at one point. They were eventually punished. Bettman isn’t in a rush to fix a clear loophole because of the teams benefitting from it.

It was "fixed" [contract lengths were limited, degree of front-loading was limited] but it's created other problems that people just choose to ignore, and it still hasn't really fixed the problem of teams being able to circumvent the cap with such contracts.

And no one was really punished. I mean, I guess New Jersey got punished for Kovalchuk's contract [see above] but Chicago definitely didn't get punished when the Blackhawks were sitting on $17.1 million in cap savings that was going to have to be paid back over the last 4 years of Hossa's contract and the Blackhawks needed Hossa to be done playing so they didn't have to pay that $17.1 million back Hossa's skin allergy to his jersey made it impossible for him to play hockey, or even touch a jersey, and Chicago was able to ship that contract to Arizona and have the Coyotes take that extra $17.1 million on the cap instead. Which, coincidentally enough, happened to be the 4 years where Hossa was going to get paid less than his cap hit. Way less. Like, $1 million each year.

But no one bitched about Chicago cheating the cap to the tune of $17.1 million. No, it was f***ing Arizona making the cap floor with Hossa's contract.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

It's really simple, some easy solutions

That ignore the NHLPA saying there is no f***ing way we're ever signing off on this, which is ... kind of important, because all of these "easy solutions" are going to have to be codified in the CBA, which the NHLPA is going to have to agree to, but why deal with reality when we can play in Fantasyland and then be pissed when it doesn't happen in reality?

 

[rsteen]

That ignore the NHLPA saying there is no f***ing way we're ever signing off on this, which is ... kind of important, because all of these "easy solutions" are going to have to be codified in the CBA, which the NHLPA is going to have to agree to, but why deal with reality when we can play in Fantasyland and then be pissed when it doesn't happen in reality?

Right, and if you're asking for major concessions for the players then it's lockout time.

 

[Chips]

Right, it was OK if it was just the league minimum for a few years. Like, the 40-43 years. Or that salary was as much as $1 million, but that went on for a few years. Like, the 40-43 years.

Some cheating was OK. Too much cheating wasn't. Someone just drew an arbitrary line to decide which was which, and then everyone decided "if you have a 9-year contract, regardless of how old the guy was when he signed it, that's cheating ... but if you sign him to 6 years at 37 and front-load it as much as you can, that's not cheating."


It was "fixed" [contract lengths were limited, degree of front-loading was limited] but it's created other problems that people just choose to ignore, and it still hasn't really fixed the problem of teams being able to circumvent the cap with such contracts.

And no one was really punished. I mean, I guess New Jersey got punished for Kovalchuk's contract [see above] but Chicago definitely didn't get punished when the Blackhawks were sitting on $17.1 million in cap savings that was going to have to be paid back over the last 4 years of Hossa's contract and the Blackhawks needed Hossa to be done playing so they didn't have to pay that $17.1 million back Hossa's skin allergy to his jersey made it impossible for him to play hockey, or even touch a jersey, and Chicago was able to ship that contract to Arizona and have the Coyotes take that extra $17.1 million on the cap instead. Which, coincidentally enough, happened to be the 4 years where Hossa was going to get paid less than his cap hit. Way less. Like, $1 million each year.

But no one bitched about Chicago cheating the cap to the tune of $17.1 million. No, it was f***ing Arizona making the cap floor with Hossa's contract.

Life is full of arbitrary lines dude. That doesn’t make them “the same”


17 years vs 9 (now 7 or 8 years). And if I’m not mistaken they tightens how much pay variance there can be year to year now compared to then


Kovalchuk was gonna get league minimum for 6 years. That’s almost an entire full length contract now. That’s a bit absurd compared to what teams do now.


The league (the owners) want some maneuverability. You’re going to have bad contracts and players with different age curves. The league wants teams to be able to get a litttle more creative and maximize the bulk of their core players years

It also helps teams like Arizona weaponize cap space to fuel a rebuild (ownership problems and the simple fact that not every rebuild will work aside)

I think with the current rules, it’s a bit easier for other teams to do the same thing than 17 years.



Lastly, the league looks at LTIR. Hossa had developed an issue. I developed a serious new allergy when I was 20 and almost died


He was taking intense meds to last as long as he could but the side effects were increasingly not worth it and he’d already accomplished everything

 

[NikolaTesla]

Wait, no we are equating cap circumvention with murder? Wat?

No, I was just saying that 1/3 of literally anything can nd will never be called a "small minority". I just made the murder analogy because some peoples needs a concrete examples to understand trivial things.

 

[Bart9349]

 

[Voight]

Cheaters continuing to cheat.

Koodo’s to VGK for being the team bold enough to pull this off. If it’s not going to be penalized, then our teams are all fools for not doing the same.

It's not cheating. Like I don't understand why people keep trying to push this narrative.

There is no doubt if this happened in either MLB or NBA? The leagues would have step in. Not in the NHL. It is joke. Vegas could ice a 100 mill dollar line-up for game one of the playoffs. But NO--it is not circumvention? For the NHL to allow this shows why the NHL is the least respected or popular sporting leagues in the states. By allowing this? NHL loses fans they do not gain them.

Its not. There is nom salary cap in the playoffs. What exactly are they circumventing?

 

[Voight]

People saying "they aren't breaking any rules" are missing the point.

IF they are/have been keeping Stone on IR longer than he needs to be, that is against the rules.

Obviously nobody here will be able to prove that, but the accusation is in fact that they are breaking the rules.

So saying "It's within the rules" is moot, and incoherent.

You'll never be able to prove that. Besides, maybe Stones healthy the last week of the regular season but he isn't 100% and doesn't want to risk injury for what could be meaningless games.

 

[Voight]

Why is Gary Bettman allowing Vegas to abuse the cap?

They aren't abusing the cap.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Life is full of arbitrary lines dude. That doesn’t make them “the same”


17 years vs 9 (now 7 or 8 years). And if I’m not mistaken they tightens how much pay variance there can be year to year now compared to then


Kovalchuk was gonna get league minimum for 6 years. That’s almost an entire full length contract now. That’s a bit absurd compared to what teams do now.


The league (the owners) want some maneuverability. You’re going to have bad contracts and players with different age curves. The league wants teams to be able to get a litttle more creative and maximize the bulk of their core players years

It also helps teams like Arizona weaponize cap space to fuel a rebuild (ownership problems and the simple fact that not every rebuild will work aside)

I think with the current rules, it’s a bit easier for other teams to do the same thing than 17 years.

There is a whole lot of "I was OK with some cheating, just ... not that much cheating" in here.

Lastly, the league looks at LTIR. Hossa had developed an issue. I developed a serious new allergy when I was 20 and almost died

I really want to pick this apart in so many ways, but I'm going to largely take a pass on this one. Your comment about the league looking at LTIR is interesting, though - because if the league looks at LTIR, they've presumably looked at Stone now. And in past seasons. And in Kucherov in 2021. And didn't have a problem with any of it.

But, those teams are dirty rotten cheating bastards so we shouldn't believe the league because ... it's just different. Because ... it just f***ing is, OK.

He was taking intense meds to last as long as he could but the side effects were increasingly not worth it and he’d already accomplished everything

And Stone has a lacerated spleen. Oh, wait - that is suspicious, that he's faking because no one else has really checked it out to make sure. [Even though I was just told the league looks at LTIR. Apparently when it involves Vegas, it's different.] It's not coincidence it's happened like this again. Just like it's not coincidence Kucherov had hip surgery [8-10 weeks after having surgery that was trying to avoid the major surgery], needed 4-5 months to recover, took ... [checks notes] 4-5 months to recover, and just happened to be finally available right when the playoffs start.

Hossa's allergy finally flaring up so bad right at the time his contracted salary dropped off a cliff is purely coincidental. He was trying to do something, he could have kept playing if he'd really pushed through, but he didn't have to keep playing because he'd accomplished everything, he just chose not to keep playing right at it was coincidentally at the same time the team needed to pay back all this money at the cap.

But ... we're not supposed to question Hossa bailing out, because ... reasons. But others get to question Stone, et. al. because ... reasons. This seems ... awfully arbitrary. Like, we're making up what's OK and what's not based on one thinks is suitable for their own selfish interests.

I'm sure it's different, though. Just ... we wouldn't understand.

 

[Canadienna]

You'll never be able to prove that. Besides, maybe Stones healthy the last week of the regular season but he isn't 100% and doesn't want to risk injury for what could be meaningless games.

Cool. Now read the very next sentence. Or here I'll quote it for you.

"Obviously nobody here will be able to prove that, but the accusation is in fact that they are breaking the rules."

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Why is Gary Bettman allowing Vegas to abuse the cap?

Because it pisses people off, and the Board of Governors pays him an extra $2 for every time a fan bitches about him.

 

[pantherbot]

When people say only a minority of fans actually care, I actually think they are correct in that only a minority of fans even think about the salary cap or LTIR. Most are casual fans not posting on a message board. Sure there's over 1K posts in this thread, but there's probably what? Millions of NHL fans? So yes, it probably is the minority of all fans, but I would say its a majority of informed/diehard fans that care and don't like what Vegas is doing. Does the NHL care about that? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not given no real response to the problem.

Even the media is being stupid about it. There's articles about how people don't like Vegas using LTIR and wishing their teams could do the same. Or articles about how fans are upset because Vegas just keeps targeting the best players and are too aggressive. No one gives a shit about that, its because Vegas is abusing (technically legally within the rules) a broken system (and yes just like Tampa did, and Chicago did).

I get the cap is not for parity, its to ensure even revenue split between owners/players. I don't think owners care that much about parity. I don't think the casual fan cares that much about parity. I don't even think Bettman cares about it either. But most serious fans of the NHL like some sort of even playing field set by the cap and so having that go away in the playoffs is frustrating.

I hate the game and I hate the players that abuse the stupid loopholes in the game. I understand it, but I don't have to like it, and obviously a majority of serious fans don't like it either. Vegas fans, if you're happy with it, then good for you, but yes your cup and any success you get this year will be looked down upon by most other fans. Just deal with it and own up to your team being the villain.

 

[Voight]

When people say only a minority of fans actually care, I actually think they are correct in that only a minority of fans even think about the salary cap or LTIR. Most are casual fans not posting on a message board. Sure there's over 1K posts in this thread, but there's probably what? Millions of NHL fans? So yes, it probably is the minority of all fans, but I would say its a majority of informed/diehard fans that care and don't like what Vegas is doing. Does the NHL care about that? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not given no real response to the problem.

Even the media is being stupid about it. There's articles about how people don't like Vegas using LTIR and wishing their teams could do the same. Or articles about how fans are upset because Vegas just keeps targeting the best players and are too aggressive. No one gives a shit about that, its because Vegas is abusing (technically legally within the rules) a broken system (and yes just like Tampa did, and Chicago did).

I get the cap is not for parity, its to ensure even revenue split between owners/players. I don't think owners care that much about parity. I don't think the casual fan cares that much about parity. I don't even think Bettman cares about it either. But most serious fans of the NHL like some sort of even playing field set by the cap and so having that go away in the playoffs is frustrating.

I hate the game and I hate the players that abuse the stupid loopholes in the game. I understand it, but I don't have to like it, and obviously a majority of serious fans don't like it either. Vegas fans, if you're happy with it, then good for you, but yes your cup and any success you get this year will be looked down upon by most other fans. Just deal with it and own up to your team being the villain.

Chicago never abused LTIR.... Hossa would've died or been severely incapacitated had he continued playing.

 

[AvroArrow]

That ignore the NHLPA saying there is no f***ing way we're ever signing off on this, which is ... kind of important, because all of these "easy solutions" are going to have to be codified in the CBA, which the NHLPA is going to have to agree to, but why deal with reality when we can play in Fantasyland and then be pissed when it doesn't happen in reality?

Why would players be against preventing teams from circumventing the cap ? I can see maybe just the Tampa/Vegas players being against, why would anyone else in the league? How does it negatively effect them, by stopping teams from circumventing the cap?

 

[pantherbot]

Chicago never abused LTIR.... Hossa would've died or been severely incapacitated had he continued playing.

I'm not talking about Hossa. I'm talking about Kane. Tape2Tape: Closing the Patrick Kane "Loophole"

NHL and GMs have known about this loophole for almost 10 years and haven't done anything about it. That's why I blame the NHL as much as teams like Vegas and Tampa. I think Tampa actually complained about it after Chicago did it, the league did nothing, so they were like f*** it let's do it ourselves with Kucherov.

So now 3 of the past 9 cups have gone to teams playing cap shenanigans and Vegas doing whatever it is they're doing this year.

Fact that someone like you with >40k posts didn't know what I was talking about is what I mean when I say most fans don't care about this so therefore the league doesn't care either. Yes it's all technically legal but it's a farce. Too bad in 5 years people will forget Vegas and Tampa abused the system and they'll just be complaining about the next team doing it.

 

[TheBeard]

You'll never be able to prove that. Besides, maybe Stones healthy the last week of the regular season but he isn't 100% and doesn't want to risk injury for what could be meaningless games.

How do you not see an issue with that in context to the cap??

 

[Devonator]

They aren't abusing the cap.

Exactly....the whining from many is hilarious....Vegas are completely within the rules.....anyone can do this if they so desire......until or if the NHL changes the rules, this is perfectly legal......

 

[Fogelhund]

There are two different discussions here. 1. If Vegas is cheating. 2. If what Vegas is doing, should be allowed, or should rules be changed?

1. It's legal, no cheating... it's that simple.

2. No, IMO you shouldn't be able to store players on LTIR, and have them suddenly healthy for game 1 of the playoffs. I don't think a rule requiring them to play game 82 is necessary, just have a cap for the playoffs too. No problem, you can replace an injured player in the regular season, but when it comes to the playoffs, you have to choose between players if healthy, and have your roster fit a cap number. No team should have a roster that would have a $115 mil cap in the playoffs.

 

[BB88]

It’s not illegall because the league is allowing these trades to happen

But the excuses here for playing in game 1 on playoffs and not being able to play regular season game 82 are bs