Value of: Vancouver Vs Colorado Thread

[John Mandalorian]

Oh it's limited to the cup final then, so let me get this straight, Byram is only viewed as this #1dman with no issues, worth EP (somehow), specifically because of the cup final, if he had done that before it wouldn't count as much? Love how you guys continue to move the goal posts to justify overrating your own players.

Demko almost single handedly beating a very deep Knights team in the playoffs, isn't equal because it wasn't the cup final? Ok then.......

Again basing value on one playoff is ridiculous.

It was your comparison. You made the comparison and tried to generalize “the playoffs” in order to say they’re the same or similar. It’s not unfair for others to point out how they’re different.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

It was your comparison. You made the comparison and tried to generalize “the playoffs” in order to say they’re the same or similar. It’s not unfair for others to point out how they’re different.

One good playoff performance is worth more depending on when it occurs is just you guys changing the goal posts to suit your narrative. The comparison only proves how ridiculous it is to put sole value on a player based on a few games, as if a few good games put said player on a on some pedestal, while ignoring all context.

I'd argue even that it's harder for a goalie in the playoffs to play the way Demko did than it was for Byram to play the way he did. Again it doesn't make Demko a top 3 goalie and it doesn't make Byram a #1D worth as much as EP and more than Hughes. If you can't see why that inference is asinine I don't know what to tell ya.

 

[John Mandalorian]

One good playoff performance is worth more depending on when it occurs is just you guys changing the goal posts to suit your narrative. The comparison only proves how ridiculous it is to put sole value on a player based on a few games, as if a few good games put said player on a on some pedestal, while ignoring all context.

I'd argue even that it's harder for a goalie in the playoffs to play the way Demko did than it was for Byram to play the way he did. Again it doesn't make Demko a top 3 goalie and it doesn't make Byram a #1D worth as much as EP and more than Hughes. If you can't see why that inference is asinine I don't know what to tell ya.

One could say that you’re moving the goal posts to suit your argument as much as anyone.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

One could say that you’re moving the goal posts to suit your argument as much as anyone.

How so?

 

[John Mandalorian]

How so?

You’re trying to decide what’s relevant and what’s not in determining an appropriate basis for comparison or for something worth consideration. You say this while there’s a lot of context with Byram you’re choosing to ignore.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

You’re trying to decide what’s relevant and what’s not in determining an appropriate basis for comparison or for something worth consideration. You say this while there’s a lot of context with Byram you’re choosing to ignore.

I'm saying that it's shortsighted, disingenuous, generally asinine to say a player has proven he's a #1Dman because of one playoff round, be it stanley cup final or not. Is it relevant that he played so well during one playoff round? Absolutely, does it prove that he's better than QH or that he's worth as much as EP, absolutely not.

What context am I choosing to ignore exactly? Love Byram, think he absolutely has the potential to be a #1Dman, but after 73 games and 33 points and one really really good playoff round he hasn't reached the perceived heights that you and your fellow fans are peddling.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I could certainly see that happening if PLD decides to move on. I do hope the Avs could convince PLD to come to Denver, but if his heart is set on Montreal can’t do much there.

Avs and Habs are two teams I see Dubois considering. I don't think his list of teams is large. I'm around 60-80% that he forces his way to Montreal.

Jets may decide to sign him for one year again and try to trade him at the 24 deadline... if they don't get good offers this summer.

Jets are a team to watch. Of course they prefer not to rebuild but their hand may be force and it's deeper than Dubois. Scheifele and Helle need new contracts soon too.

 

[John Mandalorian]

I'm saying that it's shortsighted, disingenuous, generally asinine to say a player has proven he's a #1Dman because of one playoff round, be it stanley cup final or not. Is it relevant that he played so well during one playoff round? Absolutely, does it prove that he's better than QH or that he's worth as much as EP, absolutely not.

What context am I choosing to ignore exactly? Love Byram, think he absolutely has the potential to be a #1Dman, but after 73 games and 33 points and one really really good playoff round he hasn't reached the perceived heights that you and your fellow fans are peddling.

No. It’s not peddling. Mostly, Avs fans are giving reasons for why the don’t want to trade him. That’s the opposite of peddling. Peddling has a connotation of pushing/selling. Avs fans saying they prefer Byram because of what he can do and because of what they need now and in the immediate future is not peddling.

It was a bad proposal because of the circumstance and expectations of the two teams. The 6/7 OA might be talented but there’s no guarantee with that players timeline, whereas Byram can be an elite level player in how he impacts games today.

You said context matters. At the start of last years playoffs, Byram had 49 regular season games under his belt. So he was essentially a rookie. He had missed the bulk of last season and wasn’t even around the team for a lot of that. So when he began his playoff performance last year, it was against stronger and more experienced players who had the benefit of playing the entire season. It’s not always easy to go from zero to 80 coming off a long break. But Byram stepped in for Girard like it was nothing. Yes, you can continue beating the concussion thing to death. But it takes an elite level talent to step into a role after a long layoff and play at the highest level as essentially a rookie. He didn’t just play well one series. But it’s the Tampa series that gets him the attention. They were back to back defending champs and, in spite of his age and the concussions, he didn’t blink. And he jumped off the screen because there was an element of shock watching a player in his circumstance do this against Tampa (of all teams).

But it’s not limited to this. From his very early games in 2021, he looked like he belonged. He’s basically needed little to no lead to to be an impactful player. He’s done the same thing this year when coming back from injury.

Now, contrast that with Newhook. Newhook could become a good/effective player but his timeline to get there is an eternity compared to Byram. Just a couple of years ago, some had Byram and Newhook ranked close together as prospects.

 

[Habs Halifax]

But the top 4 picks are the most interesting. It’s really good 5-8, it’s good beyond that. But you really want a top 4 pick in this one.

Michkov is a wild card. Slips outside of the top 4? Very possible.

Waives of talent appear to be this to me..
Bedard
Fantilli, Carlsson
Michkov (wild card)
Benson, Smith
Then a another waive and not sure how deep it goes.

However, I think the U18's will change things a bit.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

No. It’s not peddling. Mostly, Avs fans are giving reasons for why the don’t want to trade him. That’s the opposite of peddling. Peddling has a connotation of pushing/selling. Avs fans saying they prefer Byram because of what he can do and because of what they need now and in the immediate future is not peddling.

It was a bad proposal because of the circumstance and expectations of the two teams. The 6/7 OA might be talented but there’s no guarantee with that players timeline, whereas Byram can be an elite level player in how he impacts games today.

You said context matters. At the start of last years playoffs, Byram had 49 regular season games under his belt. So he was essentially a rookie. He had missed the bulk of last season and wasn’t even around the team for a lot of that. So when he began his playoff performance last year, it was against stronger and more experienced players who had the benefit of playing the entire season. It’s not always easy to go from zero to 80 coming off a long break. But Byram stepped in for Girard like it was nothing. Yes, you can continue beating the concussion thing to death. But it takes an elite level talent to step into a role after a long layoff and play at the highest level as essentially a rookie. He didn’t just play well one series. But it’s the Tampa series that gets him the attention. They were back to back defending champs and, in spite of his age and the concussions, he didn’t blink. And he jumped off the screen because there was an element of shock watching a player in his circumstance do this against Tampa (of all teams).

But it’s not limited to this. From his very early games in 2021, he looked like he belonged. He’s basically needed little to no lead to to be an impactful player. He’s done the same thing this year when coming back from injury.

Now, contrast that with Newhook. Newhook could become a good/effective player but his timeline to get there is an eternity compared to Byram. Just a couple of years ago, some had Byram and Newhook ranked close together as prospects.

Peddling/pushing/selling an exaggerated narrative is still peddling,

I agree it was a bad proposal, for both sides. I said as much right away.

Byram looks everything so far that he was drafted as, he looks like he will be a #1dman, absolutely, has he proven as much, because of one good playoff, and 73 games where he has 33 points, not in my opinion. Also pretending like the concussions aren't an issue is weird to me, even he was scared by it why wouldn't the fanbase be? He can't seem to stay healthy, how does that not effect his future outlook?

I'm sure he will live up to expectations and I know how good he has looked, Hughes at 19 had 53 points in his first 68 games and he didn't have the benefit of playing on one of the deepest blue lines in the NHL along with one of the best teams in the NHL. I'm not saying that the av's should trade for Hughes, I'm saying to even insinuate that Byram is better (at this stage is ludicrous), to state that Byram is somehow worth EP, is f***ing lunacy.

 

[Spilot23]

Peddling/pushing/selling an exaggerated narrative is still peddling,

I agree it was a bad proposal, for both sides. I said as much right away.

Byram looks everything so far that he was drafted as, he looks like he will be a #1dman, absolutely, has he proven as much, because of one good playoff, and 73 games where he has 33 points, not in my opinion. Also pretending like the concussions aren't an issue is weird to me, even he was scared by it why wouldn't the fanbase be? He can't seem to stay healthy, how does that not effect his future outlook?

I'm sure he will live up to expectations and I know how good he has looked, Hughes at 19 had 53 points in his first 68 games and he didn't have the benefit of playing on one of the deepest blue lines in the NHL along with one of the best teams in the NHL. I'm not saying that the av's should trade for Hughes, I'm saying to even insinuate that Byram is better (at this stage is ludicrous), to state that Byram is somehow worth EP, is f***ing lunacy.

I will say that I agree on Byram he trends to be a good #1 dman. He plays like a veteran very calm and poised for his age. But I also agree that his concussion history would worry any team that is giving up a high pick for a dman that has yet to have a full season under his belt. Especially if the said team doesn't have a Makar, Toews and Girard to replace that loss if he gets injured.

It's ridiculous to say that Byram is better than Hughes right now. Could it be debatable on the defensive side? I don't know I admit that I haven't watched Hughes this year but offensively it's not debatable at all. It's even more ridiculous when someone say he is worth EP because he is not. What I will say though is that the only thing the Avs would be interested in trading Byram for is EP (yup ridiculous). I highly doubt we would trade him for JT Miller. At this point I would prefer to package Toews or 1st + Newhook to try to get a #2C. Toews will probably price himself out after next year.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Peddling/pushing/selling an exaggerated narrative is still peddling,

I agree it was a bad proposal, for both sides. I said as much right away.

Byram looks everything so far that he was drafted as, he looks like he will be a #1dman, absolutely, has he proven as much, because of one good playoff, and 73 games where he has 33 points, not in my opinion. Also pretending like the concussions aren't an issue is weird to me, even he was scared by it why wouldn't the fanbase be? He can't seem to stay healthy, how does that not effect his future outlook?

I'm sure he will live up to expectations and I know how good he has looked, Hughes at 19 had 53 points in his first 68 games and he didn't have the benefit of playing on one of the deepest blue lines in the NHL along with one of the best teams in the NHL. I'm not saying that the av's should trade for Hughes, I'm saying to even insinuate that Byram is better (at this stage is ludicrous), to state that Byram is somehow worth EP, is f***ing lunacy.

Honestly, at a point, the Hughes and Makar comparisons became tedious. And I'm not eager to go back to that with Byram. I simply don't spend a lot of time focusing on Hughes. Given that the Avs already have Makar, I guess I'd prefer Byram since he is stronger than Hughes at the defensive end.

But admittedly, Hughes is extremely valuable to Vancouver. And if you put good complementary pieces around him, people probably stop focusing as much on his defense.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I will say that I agree on Byram he trends to be a good #1 dman. He plays like a veteran very calm and poised for his age. But I also agree that his concussion history would worry any team that is giving up a high pick for a dman that has yet to have a full season under his belt. Especially if the said team doesn't have a Makar, Toews and Girard to replace that loss if he gets injured.

It's ridiculous to say that Byram is better than Hughes right now. Could it be debatable on the defensive side? I don't know I admit that I haven't watched Hughes this year but offensively it's not debatable at all. It's even more ridiculous when someone say he is worth EP because he is not. What I will say though is that the only thing the Avs would be interested in trading Byram for is EP (yup ridiculous). I highly doubt we would trade him for JT Miller. At this point I would prefer to package Toews or 1st + Newhook to try to get a #2C. Toews will probably price himself out after next year.

Completely agreed, the av's don't trade Byram for anything less then an overpayment, which was I believe what the person who said EP in the first place meant. I get that. I think what made me wonder was the narrative that Colorado wouldn't be adding if this somehow took place.

Byram is a stud, no doubt, loved the kid since the Giants.

Honestly, at a point, the Hughes and Makar comparisons became tedious. And I'm not eager to go back to that with Byram. I simply don't spend a lot of time focusing on Hughes. Given that the Avs already have Makar, I guess I'd prefer Byram since he is stronger than Hughes at the defensive end.

But admittedly, Hughes is extremely valuable to Vancouver. And if you put good complementary pieces around him, people probably stop focusing as much on his defense.

The Hughes/Makar comparisons were and are ridiculous, Makar is generational, while Hughes is a superstar he is no where near Makar, I honestly would pick Makar over Mcjeesus, as strange as that sounds.

If this team puts the right people around Hughes he will blow up even more with points, remains to be seen whether our management is capable.

 

[StewieP19]

Avs and Habs are two teams I see Dubois considering. I don't think his list of teams is large. I'm around 60-80% that he forces his way to Montreal.

Jets may decide to sign him for one year again and try to trade him at the 24 deadline... if they don't get good offers this summer.

Jets are a team to watch. Of course they prefer not to rebuild but their hand may be force and it's deeper than Dubois. Scheifele and Helle need new contracts soon too.

I think Dubois will chose Montréal and in 2 or 3 years he will ask for a trade.
Colorado can't trade Byram for a guy who left them in 1 year.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think Dubois will chose Montréal and in 2 or 3 years he will ask for a trade.
Colorado can't trade Byram for a guy who left them in 1 year.

Dubois won't want out of Montreal. I'm guessing but the reasons why he wanted out of Columbus and won't sign with the Jets is because he wants to play for the Habs. And joining the Habs at this time with our direction is a good time. He won't be on a island by himself and taking all the pressure. The pressure to win will be spread on several players which is ideal in a hot hockey market like Montreal where media and fans go on aggressive player attacks a lot.

I don't see the Avs trading Byram. I do see them considering their 1st, Newhook, and Girard (cap space management) in trying to land a center behind MacKinnon. It's important and I'm very curious to see how deep the Avs go in the playoffs this year.

How's Eller doing? I'm a big fan of him dating back to his days with the Habs.

 

[Spilot23]

Dubois won't want out of Montreal. I'm guessing but the reasons why he wanted out of Columbus and won't sign with the Jets is because he wants to play for the Habs. And joining the Habs at this time with our direction is a good time. He won't be on a island by himself and taking all the pressure. The pressure to win will be spread on several players which is ideal in a hot hockey market like Montreal where media and fans go on aggressive player attacks a lot.

I don't see the Avs trading Byram. I do see them considering their 1st, Newhook, and Girard (cap space management) in trying to land a center behind MacKinnon. It's important and I'm very curious to see how deep the Avs go in the playoffs this year.

How's Eller doing? I'm a big fan of him dating back to his days with the Habs.

Not good. Still pissed we gave a 2nd rounder for him but hey it's just a couple of games maybe I'll give him a chance. Anyway Avs can't draft outside of the 1st round Denis freaking Malgin has been our best bottom 6 player lately

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not good. Still pissed we gave a 2nd rounder for him but hey it's just a couple of games maybe I'll give him a chance. Anyway Avs can't draft outside of the 1st round Denis freaking Malgin has been our best bottom 6 player lately

He may be out of gas at this stage of his career. I guess like you said, give him more time.

 

[Freaky Styley]

Again one playoff doesn't make a player, if it did Demko would be a top 3 goalie. Also no he's not better than hughes, your bias is ridiculous here, guy has played 73 NHL games and has 33 points and a whole lot of concern over injuries.

I said a year from now it will be more widely accepted. I just referenced the playoffs to show what he is capable of at such a young age. It's very Doughty-esque, which I think is a pretty good comparison for Bo. I guess it all depends on which kind of defender you value. For me, I want my top-end defensemen to be able to defend first. Points are nice and valuable, but all they get you at the end of the day is another PK Subban or Tyson Barrie, not championships. I just think we should call a spade a spade with Hughes and refer to him as an elite offensive defenseman. Those one-dimensional guys are better suited as a #2-3 rather than a #1. Byram has the #1 stalwart written all over him. Yes, as long as he can stay healthy.

 

[jackjohnson]

A micro chance to get Bedard. Much more likely to get a Turcotte.

Doesn't matter because no team trades that 1st pick this year. Maybe 2024 draft pick

 

[StewieP19]

Dubois won't want out of Montreal. I'm guessing but the reasons why he wanted out of Columbus and won't sign with the Jets is because he wants to play for the Habs. And joining the Habs at this time with our direction is a good time. He won't be on a island by himself and taking all the pressure. The pressure to win will be spread on several players which is ideal in a hot hockey market like Montreal where media and fans go on aggressive player attacks a lot.

I don't see the Avs trading Byram. I do see them considering their 1st, Newhook, and Girard (cap space management) in trying to land a center behind MacKinnon. It's important and I'm very curious to see how deep the Avs go in the playoffs this year.

How's Eller doing? I'm a big fan of him dating back to his days with the Habs.

To date Eller are ok on faceoff but his play without this aspect is terrible right now. Everyone Knows it can take time to acclimate to another team

 

[OilersFanatics505]

and Colorado is adding, big time.

That certainly is a take

 

[JoeSakic13]

Colorado wouldn’t want to give Byram up and Vancouver doesn’t need a Byram (at least not one they trade for).

The elusive “double no”

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

For the av's maybe I can see what your saying, but I dunno, again the top 4 all would go #1 OA in most drafts and even the top 6 is pretty insane, for a team that needs ELC's, and given the wealth of blue liners, I would think that they think long and hard. Maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah, it does look like a promising draft. But, the draft is still a crap shoot, even in the best of times. Do you think Kakko would still go 2nd in a 2019 redraft? Would Hischier still go 1st in 2017? Would Strome go 3rd in 2015?

Byram is already everything we could hope for in a prospect, other than the injuries. I think they should think long and hard about moving Toews in the off-season before they move the 21 year old kid with elite skills who will most likely get a bridge contract.

 

[McJedi]

Oh it's limited to the cup final then, so let me get this straight, Byram is only viewed as this #1dman with no issues, worth EP (somehow), specifically because of the cup final, if he had done that before it wouldn't count as much? Love how you guys continue to move the goal posts to justify overrating your own players.

Demko almost single handedly beating a very deep Knights team in the playoffs, isn't equal because it wasn't the cup final? Ok then.......

Again basing value on one playoff is ridiculous.

Byram has looked fantastic at every single step of his development. The playoffs perform was unbelievable.

He’s not worth an EP. The injury issue is very real. But he’s exactly the kind of ELC player every single NHL club salivates over. Because it’s a future core player.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

One good playoff performance is worth more depending on when it occurs is just you guys changing the goal posts to suit your narrative. The comparison only proves how ridiculous it is to put sole value on a player based on a few games, as if a few good games put said player on a on some pedestal, while ignoring all context.

I'd argue even that it's harder for a goalie in the playoffs to play the way Demko did than it was for Byram to play the way he did. Again it doesn't make Demko a top 3 goalie and it doesn't make Byram a #1D worth as much as EP and more than Hughes. If you can't see why that inference is asinine I don't know what to tell ya.

Let's not pretend that Vancouver fans didn't praise Demko to the moon after the Vegas series. Obviously he has crashed down to earth, but in the year following that playoff series, we had some Canuck fans saying he was already top 10, if not top 5 goalie.

Where would you rate Thatcher Demko among all goalies?

Title. Please also share which goalies you'd take over Demko for this season only!

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