Confirmed with Link: [VAN/DET] Canucks acquire D Filip Hronek, 4th in ‘23 for NYI 1st (condt’l), 2023 2nd - Pt. 2

[4Twenty]

So This regime is also an extension of the previous? Lol. That’s not what was said all summer.

But yeah this feels like the same type of move we’ve seen dating back to 2014.


True casuals probably don’t know we have different management. They just put the game on at 7pm.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Younger, cheaper, with much more upside, for a team that has far less need of future capital.

Far more upside based on what?

 

[MS]

I'm looking at the 2016-17 roster and I'm not seeing this roster gutting at all (Vanek, Marchenko, Jurco, Smith, and Ott seem like periphery pieces). And I'm not talking about Holland/Detroit, I'm talking Yzerman/Detroit. Holland's Detroit is irrelevant to me because he's not MY subject of the discussion. Most of this rebuild thing other than Tatar occurred well into 2018-19 at best, and that was just Nyquist. I'm trying to meet you in the middle here but I'm finding it hard to even say Yzerman didn't change direction looking at the moves. Like has been said in the past, just because a team is terrible doesn't mean their rebuilding.

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what you're seeing at all.

Detroit had 18 picks in the first 3 rounds of the 2017-19 drafts up from their allotted 8. They didn't get there by leaving the roster static.

By the end of the 18-19 season when Yzerman took over that roster was basically entirely U25 players or old untradeable junk like Mike Green and Thomas Vanek. The teardown like what Chicago is doing now was already done when he arrived.

 

[Hansen]

Disagree, beginning with that Yzerman hasn't been on the job for 4 years yet - which is half of the timeline you have outlined. From there, there's lots of avenues to go down in terms of philosophy of team building.

I also disagree Re: Yzerman

Bertuzzi and Hronek (perhaps to a lesser extent but we offered an overpayment) no longer aligned with the core. Raymond has had a down year, I see him as a Marner type player.

Seider and Edvinsson have a good shot at being a top pairing for 10 years.

They locked up their 1C captain long term, Kasper projects as a good 2C and maybe can push Larkin down.

I really love their top 9 mix of Rasmussen/Soderblom/Veleno/Bergren and veteran mix of Copp Sundqvist

They have a couple reliable defenders in Maatta and Walman

In net Cossa is faltering

They have a lot more in the pipeline than we do and theyve done better in the draft than we have.

With the nuclear arms race in their division/conference I think Yzerman is putting his head down for the year or two getting assets and then theyre going to blow the door down after

 

[CherryToke]

He skates real faaast and shoots real haaard

He also works real haaard

 

[RandV]

What exactly was Yzerman supposed to do with the Wings in the 2016-19 seasons? And why is having to rebuild the rebuild bad? Holland tried to keep the playoff streak alive and it put them in a Benning-esque bind that they are having to deconstruct.

The Wings are basically the cautionary counterpoint to an all in rebuild. Not that they shouldn't have done so, from their position post Zetterberg/Datsyuk it was necessary, but just in pointing out how it isn't always smooth sailing going into the tank.

Compiling the numbers from hockeydb.com the last 6 drafts for the Wings look like:

Total 1st rounders: 8
Average own 1st round pick position: 6.5
Average top 100 picks: 5.8
Average Total picks: 10.2

They're going into the 2023 draft with at the moment two 1st rounders and three 2nds which looks enviable from our position, but this is going to be their 7th year in a row following that pattern. Pretty much 8 considering they already have an extra 2024 1st and 4th. The Canuck fan base especially on here is starved for it after 8 years of Benning, but here's the Detroit fanbase suffering for the same time frame doing exactly what we want now.

Personally I'm less bothered than most on here with these types of deals as I see the bigger picture as a damned if we do damned if we don't type situation.

 

[Tak7]

Far more upside based on what?

Hronek is 25, has higher than normal shooting %age & on-ice SV% this year than typical, and his production is heavily boosted by PP time he's not going to get in Vancouver. Yzerman isn't a dummy - he feels his production isn't sustainable, and is maximizing value.

Sandin by comparison is much younger, and is a really well rounded Dman who got stuck on a team that had a deep left side D core

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Detroit had 18 picks in the first 3 rounds of the 2017-19 drafts up from their allotted 8. They didn't get there by leaving the roster static.

By the end of the 18-19 season when Yzerman took over that roster was basically entirely U25 players or old untradeable junk like Mike Green and Thomas Vanek. The teardown like what Chicago is doing now was already done when he arrived.

Then we are into the discussion of what constitutes a rebuild? 4 of 9 of those extra picks came from flipping Smith, Vanek, and Jurco which are or were hardly "core players" which to me, that's what constitutes a rebuild. Then an extra 4 picks came from Tatar/Nyquist which yes, to your point, fall into my own criteria of what a rebuild move is. I think the last one was for Mrazek, but I'm not 100% on that.

But then you have players who played to the end of their useful (or un-useful?) contract like Helm, Kronwall, DeKeyser who they couldn't move or didn't want to, or guys who were signed long term to bad deals to try to extend the playoff window like Abdelkader and Nielsen. So what's really left for Yzerman to move out for immediate league-ready value in 2019? How can Detroit improve their team this year and next to get by TB/BOS/TOR/CAR?

In my view, they are playing a very patient game that will turn out for them down the road. That's the heart of my argument. If you wanna say he's done a C+ job thus far, I'm far more amenable to that but I think the patience is worthwhile in the bigger picture.

 

[MS]

There has been a lot of questions about the timing and the cost of this (and I have those too) and 'Why did they pay so much?' and 'Why didn't they wait until the draft?' so I decided to do a bit of a deeper dive into just what the market was for young top-4 RHD.

And this is the entire list of RHD born 1997 or later (ie. age 25 or younger) who are playing 20+ minutes/game in the NHL this year.

Cale Makar
Adam Fox
Moritz Seider
Charlie McAvoy
Filip Hronek
John Marino
Andrew Peeke
Noah Dobson
Henri Jokiharju
Sean Durzi

10 guys. That's it. And most are just absolutely unobtainable. These guys basically don't exist, don't get traded, and yeah you can see that everyone was sleeping in a huge way on John Marino last summer. Now, obviously there are some LHS guys who play the right side but in terms of right-shooting defenders who can play heavy minutes, there are shockingly few.

The only 4 U25 RHD who play more than Hronek in the entire NHL are all guys who have won Norris Trophies or are considered future Norris winners (Makar. Fox, Seider, McAvoy).

With that in mind, I can certainly understand the mindset where if you manage to get another team to put this kind of high-minute, high-producing young RH defender on the table, you don't dick around and you pay the price and you get the deal done, because there aren't likely to be many more opportunities to bring in this type of asset.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Hronek is 25, has higher than normal shooting %age & on-ice SV% this year than typical, and his production is heavily boosted by PP time he's not going to get in Vancouver. Yzerman isn't a dummy - he feels his production isn't sustainable, and is maximizing value.

Sandin by comparison is much younger, and is a really well rounded Dman who got stuck on a team that had a deep left side D core

Uh, Hronek is 8th on Detroit in pp ice time, and 27th amongst all D in the league in even strength assists.

He literally led their sad sack team in scoring in the 20-21 season.

Sandin has had his dick sucked by Toronto media for the last few years so I'm not surprised that it's leached into your perspective. But I don't think anyone believes Sandin has higher upside than Hronek. For starters, Sandin is slow.

 

[Nucker101]

DET being used as a cautionary tale is kind of funny, especially coming from the re-tool bros who just want a playoff team.

Oh no, we might end up with a team that’s 11 points better than the Canucks in a much more difficult division, has a deeper prospect pool, more future picks, and more cap flexibility?

Sounds like Detroit is in a much better position to become the cap era Preds/Flames in the west that this organization is striving for. Re-tool bros should be salivating over the Wings situation.

 

[Hit the post]

Or one can just try and get 4-6 defensemen who don't suck defensively (even if they're all left side defensemen). Is it deal to have 3 R & 3 L? Sure but I'd settle for 6 D who aren't AHL calibre.

 

[Diamonddog01]

There has been a lot of questions about the timing and the cost of this (and I have those too) and 'Why did they pay so much?' and 'Why didn't they wait until the draft?' so I decided to do a bit of a deeper dive into just what the market was for young top-4 RHD.

And this is the entire list of RHD born 1997 or later (ie. age 25 or younger) who are playing 20+ minutes/game in the NHL this year.

Cale Makar
Adam Fox
Moritz Seider
Charlie McAvoy
Filip Hronek
John Marino
Andrew Peeke
Noah Dobson
Henri Jokiharju
Sean Durzi

10 guys. That's it. And most are just absolutely unobtainable. These guys basically don't exist, don't get traded, and yeah you can see that everyone was sleeping in a huge way on John Marino last summer. Now, obviously there are some LHS guys who play the right side but in terms of right-shooting defenders who can play heavy minutes, there are shockingly few.

The only 4 U25 RHD who play more than Hronek in the entire NHL are all guys who have won Norris Trophies or are considered future Norris winners (Makar. Fox, Seider, McAvoy).

With that in mind, I can certainly understand the mindset where if you manage to get another team to put this kind of high-minute, high-producing young RH defender on the table, you don't dick around and you pay the price and you get the deal done, because there aren't likely to be many more opportunities to bring in this type of asset.

Hmm I would argue that a few of those things / players are not like the others. Specifically Jokiharju, Hronek and Durzi. Getting a ton of minutes on a bad team isn't really an indicator of some sort of high-value, unicorn status. To an extend I think you're confusing correlation and causation here.

 

[MS]

Then we are into the discussion of what constitutes a rebuild? 4 of 9 of those extra picks came from flipping Smith, Vanek, and Jurco which are or were hardly "core players" which to me, that's what constitutes a rebuild. Then an extra 4 picks came from Tatar/Nyquist which yes, to your point, fall into my own criteria of what a rebuild move is. I think the last one was for Mrazek, but I'm not 100% on that.

But then you have players who played to the end of their useful (or un-useful?) contract like Helm, Kronwall, DeKeyser who they couldn't move or didn't want to, or guys who were signed long term to bad deals to try to extend the playoff window like Abdelkader and Nielsen. So what's really left for Yzerman to move out for immediate league-ready value in 2019? How can Detroit improve their team this year and next to get by TB/BOS/TOR/CAR?

In my view, they are playing a very patient game that will turn out for them down the road. That's the heart of my argument. If you wanna say he's done a C+ job thus far, I'm far more amenable to that but I think the patience is worthwhile in the bigger picture.

I'm not really seeing what you're getting at here.

They moved out basically everything of value 2016-2019 save a couple 'career Wing' types like Kronwall/Howard/Abdelkader. And Yzerman didn't trade those guys either - Detroit has a long-time policy of trying to allow these sort of 10+ year vets to retire as Wings and they probably have more 'career Red Wings' in the past 20 or 25 years than the rest of the NHL has career players combined.

The point is that the teardown happened before Yzerman arrived, the draft pick accumulation happened before Yzerman arrived, and he was working from a situation where things would be expected to get more competitive more quickly than for a GM who was just starting a teardown.

 

[thenextone]

Hughes just said they don’t want to be here for a rebuild. Management and ownership either believe in those players or trade everyone.

 

[NYVanfan]

Hughes just said they don’t want to be here for a rebuild. Management and ownership either believe in those players or trade everyone.

This is what I’ve been saying. Those who imagine hoarding picks and hanging onto EP & QH wanna have their cake and eat it too. It’s unrealistic.

 

[MS]

Hmm I would argue that a few of those things / players are not like the others. Specifically Jokiharju, Hronek and Durzi. Getting a ton of minutes on a bad team isn't really an indicator of some sort of high-value, unicorn status. To an extend I think you're confusing correlation and causation here.

Hronek is 2nd on Detroit in scoring and driving positive goal differentials. He's a good player, not a bad team mirage. And Detroit aren't even a 'bad' team - they're just an ordinary playoff-bubble sort of squad.

A guy like Jokiharju - yeah, he might be a 3rd pairing guy playing too much on a Buffalo team lacking RHD.

Sean Durzi is a terrific player.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Hronek is 2nd on Detroit in scoring and driving positive goal differentials. He's a good player, not a bad team mirage. And Detroit aren't even a 'bad' team - they're just an ordinary playoff-bubble sort of squad.

A guy like Jokiharju - yeah, he might be a 3rd pairing guy playing too much on a Buffalo team lacking RHD.

Sean Durzi is a terrific player.

Look I'm not going to say I've watched Hronek extensively or I'm sort of expert here but he's a player who never really stood out to me when I have watched him and I've never been interested in acquiring him. Reportedly he was at his best with a defensive defenceman however has struggled at times. So sounds like a good player with some flaws - not the type I would personally lump in with Makar, McAvoy, Fox and the others you listed and probably better suited to the 2nd pairing. He's getting more minutes this year due to Seider having some sophomore struggles but again those minutes do not mean he's some sort of high-value unicorn. Certainly not a player you have to rush to acquire while paying an incredibly expensive price for simply because he becomes briefly available.

 

[Hit the post]

This is what I’ve been saying. Those who imagine hoarding picks and hanging onto EP & QH wanna have their cake and eat it too. It’s unrealistic.

Franchise is doomed for the short-term then. Forever doomed to stay mediocre. Not terrible but not very good either.

 

[Vector]

I still want Durzi.

 

[Hit the post]

I still want Durzi.

Any relation to Drizzt Do'Urden?

 

[Hodgy]

One thing that I keep on coming back to is the timing. And its bizarre for a number of reasons. But first and foremost is that you have a loser team like the Canucks, with no prospect of making the playoffs, trading for a player whose two most cost controlled, and therefore valuable, seasons are this year and next. To put it another way, Hronek from today's date to July 1st, based on his position, performance and cap hit, would have significant value which is partly why the acquisition cost was so high. And yet, we paid for this value notwithstanding the fact that it was totally worthless to us. Like, totally and utterly worthless.

So, why did we do that? I can't imagine Hronek's value was going to be higher in the summer I appreciate that there was a risk that he wouldn't be available, and therefore, potentially, no other young RHD would be available (although this is obviously unknown). But ultimately I think there are two reasons: (1) JR and Alvin's past mismanagement (i.e., not acquiring Marino, for example, for a way lesser cost) and (2) their impatience. Overall its a bad look.

As an aside, can anyone think of a bottom 6 team or whatever that has given up significant futures at the deadline for a player like Hronek?

 

[Nucker101]

I still want Durzi.

He does line up with your want for chaos. Never a dull moment with him on the ice.

 

[Gurn]

Personally I don't care what Quinn wants, he is signed for 4 more years and is going nowhere, unless the Canucks choose to move him.
E.P. is signed for one more year, and will be RFA after that, so the club gets him for at least 1 year after.
If E.P. doesn't want to stay- he will bring back a very, very good return.

Edit- if they want to stay, fine by me; but players should never run the team.

 

[me2]

One thing that I keep on coming back to is the timing. And its bizarre for a number of reasons. But first and foremost is that you have a loser team like the Canucks, with no prospect of making the playoffs, trading for a player whose two most cost controlled, and therefore valuable, seasons are this year and next. To put it another way, Hronek from today's date to July 1st, based on his position, performance and cap hit, would have significant value which is partly why the acquisition cost was so high. And yet, we paid for this value notwithstanding the fact that it was totally worthless to us. Like, totally and utterly worthless.

So, why did we do that? I can't imagine Hronek's value was going to be higher in the summer I appreciate that there was a risk that he wouldn't be available, and therefore, potentially, no other young RHD would be available (although this is obviously unknown). But ultimately I think there are two reasons: (1) JR and Alvin's past mismanagement (i.e., not acquiring Marino, for example, for a way lesser cost) and (2) their impatience. Overall its a bad look.

As an aside, can anyone think of a bottom 6 team or whatever that has given up significant futures at the deadline for a player like Hronek?

Because Yzerman wants to improve Detroit's picks by 3 or 4 places and Vancouver wants to worsen theirs by 2 or 3 places. Yzerman, the crafty devil, just positioned his team to finish worse than the islanders which increases the chance they get the islanders pick this year.