Confirmed with Link: [VAN/DET] Canucks acquire D Filip Hronek, 4th in ‘23 for NYI 1st (condt’l), 2023 2nd - Pt. 2

[Hit the post]

Having a hard shot is like having a big dick, it's counterproductive if you can't use it properly.

I keep deluding myself into thinking "size isn't everything".

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

The cheerleading for Yzerman and Detroit is a bit bizarre.

Their rebuild is failing. They're heading into Year 8 and have reached the point where they're now rebuilding the rebuild by dealing guys who were thought to be young core pieces in Hronek and Bertuzzi. They have no marquee offensive talent outside of Dylan Larkin who was already there the last time they made the playoffs. They're rotating through a new journeyman goalie every year. They had to go out and overpay in UFA for a 2nd line last summer because they had no in-house push up front despite having like 30 picks in the first 3 rounds over the previous 5 years. They have two really good assets (Seider and Larkin) and one of those was just given the contract that fans here were adamant was a terrible idea for a team in ours/Detroits situation when it came to Horvat.

Like, Detroit now is in a worse position than we were heading into Year 8 of Benning before the OEL atrocity happened. They're kind of the model for the downside of the full tank/long-term rebuild.

Disagree, beginning with that Yzerman hasn't been on the job for 4 years yet - which is half of the timeline you have outlined. From there, there's lots of avenues to go down in terms of philosophy of team building.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

He’s easily good enough to be a decent 2C on a playoff team. What data is there to suggest that he isn’t?

It's the combination of him being a bit redundant to our team with Petey (and to a lesser extent Miller), and believing, as I do, that a winning team isn't paying Horvat 8.5 million per.

 

[Svencouver]

The cheerleading for Yzerman and Detroit is a bit bizarre.

Their rebuild is failing. They're heading into Year 8 and have reached the point where they're now rebuilding the rebuild by dealing guys who were thought to be young core pieces in Hronek and Bertuzzi. They have no marquee offensive talent outside of Dylan Larkin who was already there the last time they made the playoffs. They're rotating through a new journeyman goalie every year. They had to go out and overpay in UFA for a 2nd line last summer because they had no in-house push up front despite having like 30 picks in the first 3 rounds over the previous 5 years. They have two really good assets (Seider and Larkin) and one of those was just given the contract that fans here were adamant was a terrible idea for a team in ours/Detroits situation when it came to Horvat.

Like, Detroit now is in a worse position than we were heading into Year 8 of Benning before the OEL atrocity happened. They're kind of the model for the downside of the full tank/long-term rebuild.

I think getting rid of Hronek was legitimately a bad move, even if it cost us too much to acquire him. Like, clearly the problem with Detroits defensive core is that Chiarot is playing in it. Seider struggled to drag him around. Hronek and Maatta were a fantastic pairing. No clue what they're doing breaking that up and getting rid of a young, team-controlled RHD that drove their success this year. Larkin will be 30 by the time they build a D core around Seider.

 

[kanucks25]

The cheerleading for Yzerman and Detroit is a bit bizarre.

Their rebuild is failing. They're heading into Year 8 and have reached the point where they're now rebuilding the rebuild by dealing guys who were thought to be young core pieces in Hronek and Bertuzzi. They have no marquee offensive talent outside of Dylan Larkin who was already there the last time they made the playoffs. They're rotating through a new journeyman goalie every year. They had to go out and overpay in UFA for a 2nd line last summer because they had no in-house push up front despite having like 30 picks in the first 3 rounds over the previous 5 years. They have two really good assets (Seider and Larkin) and one of those was just given the contract that fans here were adamant was a terrible idea for a team in ours/Detroits situation when it came to Horvat.

Like, Detroit now is in a worse position than we were heading into Year 8 of Benning before the OEL atrocity happened. They're kind of the model for the downside of the full tank/long-term rebuild.

Yzerman has only been the GM there for 3.5 seasons.

 

[MS]

Disagree, beginning with that Yzerman hasn't been on the job for 4 years yet - which is half of the timeline you have outlined. From there, there's lots of avenues to go down in terms of philosophy of team building.

Yzerman didn't change a thing from what they were already doing. They did exactly what Chicago is doing right now under Holland and had 13 picks in the first 3 rounds of the 2017-18 drafts.

They're 7 seasons down the road from when they decided to blow it up, way past the point where they would have expected to be competing again, and are now having to start rebuilding the rebuild after their tank didn't yield nearly enough premium talent. It hasn't turned out well for them, and they're now scrambling and improvising on the fly to try and fix the situation.

 

[m9]

Disagree, beginning with that Yzerman hasn't been on the job for 4 years yet - which is half of the timeline you have outlined. From there, there's lots of avenues to go down in terms of philosophy of team building.

They also are better than the Canucks on the ice this season, have a blue-chip defenseman & center prospect, 25 million+ in cap space next year, and 5 picks that will probably land in the top 50 this year including 2 first-rounders. Plus an extra 1st next year.

They definitely need to actually do something with those resources, but they seem to be setup pretty well to make a tier jump by pushing assets forward.

 

[Nucker101]

It's the combination of him being a bit redundant to our team with Petey (and to a lesser extent Miller), and believing, as I do, that a winning team isn't paying Horvat 8.5 million per.

Just as long as you guys who support letting him walk, and more importantly management, keeps this same high standard of cap management, and in this case not overpaying a core guy by 1.5M per, then sure I'm on board with this take.

I'm extremely skeptical that this will be the case after reading countless posts defending overpayments of role players who've gone through the revolving door in Vancouver. Hopefully management isn't as hypocritical as some fans are, although management themselves has already shown some hypocritical tendencies already. Especially JR with some of things he said when he first got here compared to his actions.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I see Washington sitting ahead of the Canucks in the standings, in a much more pressing window to win because of Ovechkin/Carlson's ages, and much closer to a playoff spot in the standings than the Canucks are, deciding to sell.

I don't think it makes any sense to view the Canucks through the lens of different management eras (The Benning era vs Rutherford/Alvin, etc)., because they all ultimately are the Acquilini era - and they have consistently now prioritized 2 home playoff dates in the spring, over actually challenging for a cup. It reminds me completely of the Poile-Predators, or the Leafs of the early 2000s. When you're aiming just to get in to secure playoff gates, it's impossible to build a cup contender.

The Caps literally just made the same bet for a worse player. They traded (an admittedly lower) 1st for Rasmus Sandin. A 1st that they had just acquired days earlier for 2 impending UFAs.

 

[MS]

I think getting rid of Hronek was legitimately a bad move, even if it cost us too much to acquire him. Like, clearly the problem with Detroits defensive core is that Chiarot is playing in it. Seider struggled to drag him around. Hronek and Maatta were a fantastic pairing. No clue what they're doing breaking that up and getting rid of a young, team-controlled RHD that drove their success this year. Larkin will be 30 by the time they build a D core around Seider.

Yeah, I don't get the sense of it either, unless they do what we did and then try flipping that NYI pick for a young C.

They're a team that is just totally lacking in offensive talent and just traded away one of their most talented players. And it isn't like there's a lot more talent coming through their system - it's big Swedish D and two-way wingers.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Yzerman didn't change a thing from what they were already doing. They did exactly what Chicago is doing right now under Holland and had 13 picks in the first 3 rounds of the 2017-18 drafts.

They're 7 seasons down the road from when they decided to blow it up, way past the point where they would have expected to be competing again, and are now having to start rebuilding the rebuild after their tank didn't yield nearly enough premium talent. It hasn't turned out well for them, and they're now scrambling and improvising on the fly to try and fix the situation.

What exactly was Yzerman supposed to do with the Wings in the 2016-19 seasons? And why is having to rebuild the rebuild bad? Holland tried to keep the playoff streak alive and it put them in a Benning-esque bind that they are having to deconstruct.

 

[pitseleh]

They also are better than the Canucks on the ice this season, have a blue-chip defenseman & center prospect, 25 million+ in cap space next year, and 5 picks that will probably land in the top 50 this year including 2 first-rounders. Plus an extra 1st next year.

They definitely need to actually do something with those resources, but they seem to be setup pretty well to make a tier jump by pushing assets forward.

Yeah. They’re also playing in the meat grinder that is the east this season.

To MS’s point they are in a worse spot than the Canucks were in March 2021, sure, but they are probably in a better spot than the Canucks are right now.

 

[MS]

What exactly was Yzerman supposed to do with the Wings in the 2016-19 seasons? And why is having to rebuild the rebuild bad? Holland tried to keep the playoff streak alive and it put them in a Benning-esque bind that they are having to deconstruct.

Yzerman didn't change the direction.

They started a tank mid-way through 2016-17 season and did the textbook gutting of the roster for a draft pick surplus and drop to the bottom of the standings. The fact that they changed GM mid-way doesn't mean that those 2-3 years didn't happen and shouldn't be factored into the timeframe of their expected return to competitiveness.

Like, if Chicago fires their GM a year from now it isn't like the new guy is starting from scratch on a rebuild or didn't inherit a stocked prospect pool from the already-underway tank.

 

[Svencouver]

Coming out of a rebuild and actually, like, building the team is harder than just playing at the bottom and getting top 5 picks from the league. Canucks fans should know that better than anyone.

 

[Tak7]

The Caps literally just made the same bet for a worse player. They traded (an admittedly lower) 1st for Rasmus Sandin. A 1st that they had just acquired days earlier for 2 impending UFAs.

Younger, cheaper, with much more upside, for a team that has far less need of future capital.

 

[4Twenty]

I personally think Yzerman swerving back to a rebuild is incredibly wise. Why limp the truck down the road if you know there’s not enough gas to get where you’re going.

It’s wild to me that not chasing a “fake Stanley cup” of making the playoffs (in a wildly more difficult division
/conference than the Canucks) is being frowned upon by those who ridiculed the fake Stanley cup chase here under JB.

 

[Tak7]

Coming out of a rebuild and actually, like, building the team is harder than just playing at the bottom and getting top 5 picks from the league. Canucks fans should know that better than anyone.

Why?
Canucks fans haven't experienced an actual rebuild despite begging for one for years.

 

[4th line culture]

Yzerman didn't change the direction.

They started a tank mid-way through 2016-17 season and did the textbook gutting of the roster for a draft pick surplus and drop to the bottom of the standings. The fact that they changed GM mid-way doesn't mean that those 2-3 years didn't happen and shouldn't be factored into the timeframe of their expected return to competitiveness.

Like, if Chicago fires their GM a year from now it isn't like the new guy is starting from scratch on a rebuild or didn't inherit a stocked prospect pool from the already-underway tank.

So Alvin is on the hook for Bennings failures? He hasn't changed direction

 

[Svencouver]

Why?
Canucks fans haven't experienced an actual rebuild despite begging for one for years.

Uh, yeah. Exactly. Benning hopelessly failed to do anything other than draft Hughes and Pettersson. That's my point lol

 

[credulous]

Yeah, I don't get the sense of it either, unless they do what we did and then try flipping that NYI pick for a young C.

They're a team that is just totally lacking in offensive talent and just traded away one of their most talented players. And it isn't like there's a lot more talent coming through their system - it's big Swedish D and two-way wingers.

kasper is one of the best C prospects in the world. soderblom is a real prospect at c too

 

[MS]

kasper is one of the best C prospects in the world. soderblom is a real prospect at c too

Kasper projects as a gritty two-way 2nd liner. Soderblom is under 0.5 points/game in the AHL in his draft +4.

 

[m9]

Yeah. They’re also playing in the meat grinder that is the east this season.

To MS’s point they are in a worse spot than the Canucks were in March 2021, sure, but they are probably in a better spot than the Canucks are right now.

They need a big-time offensive piece up front and to fix their goaltending long-term. They do have the assets to get those players if they become available, though.

But in comparing the two teams, you would have a tough time figuring out why either is buying at the trade deadline.

 

[MS]

So Alvin is on the hook for Bennings failures? He hasn't changed direction

It's not being 'on the hook for failures', it's being tied into the timeline of what came before you. And absolutely that's the case here. Allvin didn't inherit a 19 year old Pettersson or Hughes and their decisions are based on where the team has been and what they're working with.

 

[gringo]

Having a hard shot is like having a big dick, it's counterproductive if you can't use it properly.

I see it opposite I’d rather have a big dick and a big shot because every once in a while you’re gonna hit it right

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Yzerman didn't change the direction.

They started a tank mid-way through 2016-17 season and did the textbook gutting of the roster for a draft pick surplus and drop to the bottom of the standings. The fact that they changed GM mid-way doesn't mean that those 2-3 years didn't happen and shouldn't be factored into the timeframe of their expected return to competitiveness.

Like, if Chicago fires their GM a year from now it isn't like the new guy is starting from scratch on a rebuild or didn't inherit a stocked prospect pool from the already-underway tank.

I'm looking at the 2016-17 roster and I'm not seeing this roster gutting at all (Vanek, Marchenko, Jurco, Smith, and Ott seem like periphery pieces). And I'm not talking about Holland/Detroit, I'm talking Yzerman/Detroit. Holland's Detroit is irrelevant to me because he's not MY subject of the discussion. Most of this rebuild thing other than Tatar occurred well into 2018-19 at best, and that was just Nyquist. I'm trying to meet you in the middle here but I'm finding it hard to even say Yzerman didn't change direction looking at the moves. Like has been said in the past, just because a team is terrible doesn't mean their rebuilding.

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing what you're seeing at all.