Confirmed with Link: [VAN/DET] Canucks acquire D Filip Hronek, 4th in ‘23 for NYI 1st (condt’l), 2023 2nd - Pt. 2

[bossram]

Agreed. But we used up 2 of those chips.

I don't like trading draft picks, and I really don't like trading draft picks when I figure we got fleeced. This was a Jimbo level trade. And as everyone has said, we need a decent defensive D man. What Meyers and OEL should be.

The other part I hate about this is it is going to once again get us into cap trouble. The last 4 -5 years have shown that having cap space is very valuable. If you use it correctly.

To complete the retool, all Alvin needs to do is add another high-end defender, a 2C, a 3C, and a top-line winger. And do it with no cap space, a barren prospect pool, and depleted draft capital.

Easy!

 

[jigsaw99]

Trade reminds me of Keith Ballard trade.

Here's whats going to happen:
- Hronek turns out to be injury prone (dude is starting injured)
- Tocchet hates the guy due to his defensive liability
- Hornek demotes to 7th defenseman and Canucks complains that Aaron Rome is playing over him every night

 

[geebster]

Just for fun, I'm going to list all reasonable 2C targets that IMO I like better than Horvat and see where it goes. Again, I'm not saying these players are objectively better than Horvat, just that I like them as *my* 2C better than Horvat. Contracts and age aside, just as the player they are today.

Nick Schmaltz, David Krejci, Mikael Backlund, RNH, Phillip Danault, Claude Giroux, Logan Couture, Yanni Gourde (maybe), Robert Thomas, Anthony Cirelli, RoR, William Karlsson.

Which is a list that dwindles fast when you consider contracts and age. So yeah, pretty damn slim.

I like Conor McDavid as my 2nd C tbh.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I like Conor McDavid as my 2nd C tbh.

Who's your 1C? Zarilion Romulus-Xenon?

 

[MS]

It's funny because this is what I said, you obviously you agreed with, earlier in the season. Teams can rebuild at any time. Emotionally, now would have been a great time to rebuild but it doesn't line-up with where they are at.

I do think there is a real fear and threat that ownership will never allow a proper rebuild. Anyone that pushes for it is tossed aside and someone else who will execute doofus-in-charge's pie-in-the-sky plan will be brought in. So in two years they'll trade Pettersson and Hughes for terrible returns because ownership refuses to do anything but constantly push for mediocrity.

I don't know whether this is ownership or not.

But if I was the GM here and I was hired a year ago and I had total autonomy to do whatever I wanted, this sort of move is what I'd be doing. Whether the price or the player was right or wrong is another argument, but if I inherited a team with this core my entire prerogative would have been to aggressively as f*** move out the bad cap and aggressively as f*** try to bring in quality players to augment what we already had and I probably would have traded away a couple entire drafts in the process as that was the price that needed to be paid to un-Benning the team and get things back on the rails.

 

[Nucker101]

Just for fun, I'm going to list all reasonable 2C targets that IMO I like better than Horvat and see where it goes. Again, I'm not saying these players are objectively better than Horvat, just that I like them as *my* 2C better than Horvat. Contracts and age aside, just as the player they are today.

Nick Schmaltz, David Krejci, Mikael Backlund, RNH, Phillip Danault, Claude Giroux, Logan Couture, Yanni Gourde (maybe), Robert Thomas, Anthony Cirelli, RoR, William Karlsson.

Which is a list that dwindles fast when you consider contracts and age. So yeah, pretty damn slim.

Exactly. Of that list I’d say only Schmaltz(who’s been a winger the past 2 seasons), is a realistic and worthwhile target.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Trade reminds me of Keith Ballard trade.

Here's whats going to happen:
- Hronek turns out to be injury prone (dude is starting injured)
- Tocchet hates the guy due to his defensive liability
- Hornek demotes to 7th defenseman and Canucks complains that Aaron Rome is playing over him every night

I'll just amuse myself with Tanner Glass scrabble videos.

 

[JohnHodgson]

The problem is that this appears to be more of the same. It's not so much 'living in the past' as seemingly 'reliving the past.'

Hronek is fine in a vacuum, but magically acquiring a defenseman isn't the panacea you're painting it out to be with your Jersey example. I would go further, while explaining what the issue is:

What has people anxious is that this is the same sort of shortcutting efforts that was tried under Benning.

What's encouraging is that it seems that Alvin and Co. are being a lot smarter about who they are targeting. Instead of chasing after a Roussel and overpaying in free agency, gifting an utterly insane golden parachute retirement contract with Eriksson, or proclaiming bums like Sutter to be 'foundational players' on a '100 point playoff team', we're focusing on players who have encouraging underlying numbers, are in the right age bracket, etc.

Current management isn't focusing on name recognition or draft pedigree like our idiot former GM. They also aren't largely overspending. I was kinda stupified with this deal when I first heard about it yesterday, but it seems to be trending in the right direction.

It's more calculated and targeting the sorts of players we should be focusing on and taking educated gambles while using 'fungible assets.' It's the sort of shit this team should always be doing, regardless of where they are.

However, there's always the concern/fear that the team is operating on a different mandate of 'compete now now now now now' and that's what has people antsy.



I think that a lot of this comes down to what the team should be prioritizing. But they can work on different aspects simultaneously. First reaction is that I didn't like the Hronek deal, but I'm coming around to it after processing it a bit.

The problem is that this appears to be more of the same. It's not so much 'living in the past' as seemingly 'reliving the past.'

At what point did Jim Benning ever acquire quality 25/26 YO players?

You mean the Sea of Granlunds? Baertschi? Vey? Pedan? Gudbranson? Bonino? Sbisa? Ferland? The only one that ever really worked out was JTM - JB was hitting like 1 for 20. Did I mention that JB couldn't identify ANY defensive talent and lucked out on Quinn Hughes? Imagine this defense without Quinn.

Jim Benning is an ALL-TIME worst executive in sports history. Don't let HIS experience ruin what your perspective should be.

Allvin/JR have acquired more quality players than Jim Benning did via trade through ONE year on the job than Jim did in EIGHT years. Beau, Kuzmenko, Mikheyev, and Hronek speak to that.

People can't separate the Benning and Allvin eras because the mandate is the same (compete now). The execution is 1000% times different.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I don't know whether this is ownership or not.

But if I was the GM here and I was hired a year ago and I had total autonomy to do whatever I wanted, this sort of move is what I'd be doing. Whether the price or the player was right or wrong is another argument, but if I inherited a team with this core my entire prerogative would have been to aggressively as f*** move out the bad cap and aggressively as f*** try to bring in quality players to augment what we already had and I probably would have traded away a couple entire drafts in the process as that was the price that needed to be paid to un-Benning the team and get things back on the rails.

Yeah, the key thing is that you wouldn't be half-assing it in any direction. Which doesn't seem to line up with what lots of fans believe is the ownership mandate.

 

[VintageBure]

Is it a good time to gamble when your millions of dollars in debt ?? Anybody ?? Should I call and ask Evander Kane ?

 

[Hit the post]

"He hasn't materially done anything since being hired as the GM.

That team has been rebuilding for like 7 years now with little to show for."

These are 2 sentences that follow right after another. You didn't say jack shit about 2019 in the post I responded to.

Maybe you need to see an optician, lol.



Ya, see, this is context that is actually useful and germane to your point, instead of trying to conflate Yzerman as being part of Detroit's '7 year rebuild.'

He doesn't like Trevor Linden:

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

The problem is that this appears to be more of the same. It's not so much 'living in the past' as seemingly 'reliving the past.'

At what point did Jim Benning ever acquire quality 25/26 YO players?

Did you read the post? Reading the post explains the post. Here, for emphasis, since it seems your wrangler is taking a coffee break or something:

What's encouraging is that it seems that Alvin and Co. are being a lot smarter about who they are targeting. Instead of chasing after a Roussel and overpaying in free agency, gifting an utterly insane golden parachute retirement contract with Eriksson, or proclaiming bums like Sutter to be 'foundational players' on a '100 point playoff team', we're focusing on players who have encouraging underlying numbers, are in the right age bracket, etc.

I was explaining why this is different from Benning while simultaneously explaining why folks are anxious about these moves. On the surface, they appear to be similar, but a deeper examination shows that they aren't.

People can't separate the Benning and Allvin eras because the mandate is the same (compete now). The execution is 1000% times different.

Tell me you only read the first sentence without telling me you only read the first sentence, lmao.

Seriously, go to Lenscrafters or something dude.

 

[JohnHodgson]

"He hasn't materially done anything since being hired as the GM.

That team has been rebuilding for like 7 years now with little to show for."

These are 2 sentences that follow right after another. You didn't say jack shit about 2019 in the post I responded to.

Maybe you need to see an optician, lol.



Ya, see, this is context that is actually useful and germane to your point, instead of trying to conflate Yzerman as being part of Detroit's '7 year rebuild.'

Buddy.

I never said Yzerman was there for 7 years.

Don't put words in my mouth. If reading comprehension is your flaw - that's ok.

 

[NYVanfan]

We absolutely should have done what Chicago is doing back in 2016. But we didn't, and that ship has sailed.


1000% percent... amen brother.

People are stuck living in 2015/2016. I have seen so many comments about how the Canucks have tried retooling for 10+ years and it's failed etc. etc.

People are literally so stuck in the past - it's wild.

The very moment that Petey and Hughes showed us they were TRUE superstars - everything changed. Everything happened prior to that is completely irrelevant. Our absolute focus should be to build around our two superstars that are 24 and 23 respectively. Draft picks, especially, d-men can take 3-5 years before they establish themselves as useful players unless you find the rare guys like Seider, Makar, etc.

Our superstars are heading into their prime and people want to just sit here and collect picks like Thanos collecting his stones. The number one focus is rebuilding this roster around Petey and Hughes.

They are doing that as we speak. Kuzmenko, Beau, and Mikheyev (all brought in by Allvin/JR) have been great wingers for Petey. Acquiring Hronek will help shoulder Hughes' responsibilities and minutes and provide some PP insurance.

Agree with this take.
We are not rebuilding, like it or not — maybe they should be trading EP and QH, but no guarantees there. And going all for top picks and waiting for 4-5 years for them (and/or more scotch tape solutions) seems a recipe for EP to force his way out.
saying things like “Yzerman sold high” is conjecture, noone knows that. If anything Hronek’s trajectory has been pointing upwards.
I think I read somewhere we are now the second youngest team in the league…? in any case we have gotten younger. If we can get a few more draft picks for Miller or Boeser I’ll be pretty happy with this deadline

 

[MS]

Using Jim Benning as the benchmark for anything and whether it's a good idea/possible/workable or whatever is just so absurd.

It's like if my car quits running and my solution is to let my 2 year old swing a hammer at it for 10 minutes and add some dents and then declaring 'it's absolutely unfixable!' and selling it for parts.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Did you read the post? Reading the post explains the post. Here, for emphasis, since it seems your wrangler is taking a coffee break or something:

What's encouraging is that it seems that Alvin and Co. are being a lot smarter about who they are targeting. Instead of chasing after a Roussel and overpaying in free agency, gifting an utterly insane golden parachute retirement contract with Eriksson, or proclaiming bums like Sutter to be 'foundational players' on a '100 point playoff team', we're focusing on players who have encouraging underlying numbers, are in the right age bracket, etc.

I was explaining why this is different from Benning while simultaneously explaining why folks are anxious about these moves. On the surface, they appear to be similar, but a deeper examination shows that they aren't.



Tell me you only read the first sentence without telling me you only read the first sentence, lmao.

Seriously, go to Lenscrafters or something dude.

I wasn't taking shots at you bud. I was directing the comments to the general idea of people who can't separate between the two.

I actually mostly agree with you for what it's worth.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Buddy.

I never said Yzerman was there for 7 years.

Hence me asking you what you were on about, so that you could explain your point since it looked like you were implying he was, while also ignoring his efforts in Tampa (which has been a real dumpster fire, so, ya, good point, 'worship' over Yzerman is completely unfounded, lmao.)

If reading comprehension is your flaw - that's ok.

I mean, this is hilarious given everything.

 

[m9]

The flipside to this is that the UFA market for RHD is absolutely horrible this year and there looks to be little on the trade market as well. There would be an opposite viewpoint that when you have a chance to get a young top-4 RHD you're smart to strike while the iron is hot and get it done because otherwise you might end up giving a Tyler Myers contract to Damon Severson or Matt Dumba.

Like, U25 RHD playing 20+ minutes/game simply never get traded. I'd be surprised if it's happened more than once or twice in the last 5 years.

But you might be right. I don't know. It will be very interesting to see the market in June.

I don't know whether this is ownership or not.

But if I was the GM here and I was hired a year ago and I had total autonomy to do whatever I wanted, this sort of move is what I'd be doing. Whether the price or the player was right or wrong is another argument, but if I inherited a team with this core my entire prerogative would have been to aggressively as f*** move out the bad cap and aggressively as f*** try to bring in quality players to augment what we already had and I probably would have traded away a couple entire drafts in the process as that was the price that needed to be paid to un-Benning the team and get things back on the rails.

You have said that you valued the Islanders pick as more than two late 1sts. Do you not think with value of two late 1sts and an early 2nd you should be able to address multiple issues (bad contracts out, hole at C, hole at LD, hole at RD) instead of pouring so much value into one player right now? Or would your plan to just be to keep trading premium draft picks to take care of those as well?

This is the part that I don't get with the deal for those who think the team's "attack" philosophy is the correct one right now. You still are going to need multiple assets to dump contracts, add a center, and make additions to the defense. Are there enough assets to accomplish all that even left? I don't know if they were really in position to put this much into one piece.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

I wasn't taking shots at you bud. I was directing the comments to the general idea of people who can't separate between the two.

This is great, cos you were being directly confrontational with me by asking very pointed questions, directed to me:

At what point did Jim Benning ever acquire quality 25/26 YO players?

You mean the Sea of Granlunds? Baertschi? Vey? Pedan? Gudbranson? Bonino? Sbisa? Ferland? The only one that ever really worked out was JTM - JB was hitting like 1 for 20. Did I mention that JB couldn't identify ANY defensive talent and lucked out on Quinn Hughes? Imagine this defense without Quinn.

Jim Benning is an ALL-TIME worst executive in sports history. Don't let HIS experience ruin what your perspective should be.

Lots of 'yous' and 'yours' in there. Backpedal harder, 'bud.'

I actually mostly agree with you for what it's worth.

Ya, maybe don't come out guns blazing and read the post (it explains the post.)

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I think Hronek is a good player. But he's not actually addressing any of the Canucks' weaknesses, other than the "RHD" archetype. A good point shot is really the least valuable attribute of any modern defenseman's skillset.

What I bolded is the big problem. It could work out, despite being risky, despite being expensive, if everything else involved with the team and his development go perfectly. That's just not a well-calibrated gamble.

Again, just accept the club for what it is: Doo-doo. Watch it like you would the Bachelor or Jersey Shore.

His PK metric is quite strong this year, we definitely need help there. He can't do it all by himself, but, well, brick by brick right?

Looking at the right side D in the organization now, you have Bear, Myers, Burroughs, Juulsen, Woo and...? Anybody that can play that side competently is going to be HUGE for us. And you hope he grows into either a great partner for Quinn, or can anchor his own pair. Like I said, he checks some boxes, not all, but there isn't any player available that can solves all of our problems by himself, so might as well just add to it, again, brick by brick.

It really isn't a well-calibrated gamble, it is super risky to bet so much assets on this player. This is a bet we simply CANNOT lose. But what's done is done, now just crossing my finger that it works out.

I cannot watch this team like reality TV for much longer. It was fun for awhile to pick apart the idiotic moves by management. But that is getting really tiring now. I just want to passionately cheer for the Nucks to win and be proud of my favorite team. How many more years of tank threads do I have to live through? You can only watch so many seasons of the Bachelor before you find new shows or new hobbies altogether. I'm nearing that point.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

I don't know whether this is ownership or not.

But if I was the GM here and I was hired a year ago and I had total autonomy to do whatever I wanted, this sort of move is what I'd be doing. Whether the price or the player was right or wrong is another argument, but if I inherited a team with this core my entire prerogative would have been to aggressively as f*** move out the bad cap and aggressively as f*** try to bring in quality players to augment what we already had and I probably would have traded away a couple entire drafts in the process as that was the price that needed to be paid to un-Benning the team and get things back on the rails.

Just to re-benning the team? They have already shot themselves in the foot add millions and millions to the wings and signing Miller, Boeser, etc to high money deals. Now they are trying to also move those deals.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

You have said that you valued the Islanders pick as more than two late 1sts. Do you not think with value of two late 1sts and an early 2nd you should be able to address multiple issues (bad contracts out, hole at C, hole at LD, hole at RD) instead of pouring so much value into one player right now? Or would your plan to just be to keep trading premium draft picks to take care of those as well?

This is the part that I don't get with the deal for those who think the team's "attack" philosophy is the correct one right now. You still are going to need multiple assets to dump contracts, add a center, and make additions to the defense. Are there enough assets to accomplish all that even left? I don't know if they were really in position to put this much into one piece.

Well we are seeing contenders trading 2025 and 2026 picks, so...thats an option.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Using Jim Benning as the benchmark for anything and whether it's a good idea/possible/workable or whatever is just so absurd.

It's like if my car quits running and my solution is to let my 2 year old swing a hammer at it for 10 minutes and add some dents and then declaring 'it's absolutely unfixable!' and selling it for parts.

Perfect analogy.

If Jim Benning didn't sign Myers and used the assets (that went to OEL) to acquire actual competent defenseman...

How far would we be right now?

We would be a legit contender if we weren't saddled with $13M to two AHL defenseman. Imagine if we traded our 2nds for Devon Toews.

Retooling CAN work - it just needs to be executed properly. Whatever the hell Jim Benning was doing was an absolute atrocity and frankly an embarrassment. He is absolutely NOT the baseline or benchmark.

This is great, cos you were being directly confrontational with me by asking very pointed questions, directed to me:







Lots of 'yous' and 'yours' in there. Backpedal harder, 'bud.'




Ya, maybe don't come out guns blazing and read the post (it explains the post.)

Because I didn't agree with the notion that we are "Reliving the past".

That's why I referred to you in the manner that I did.

It looks like you're still on the fence with Allvin/JR but I see you'll get there.

 

[ChilliBilly]

The general opinion of analysts, (people who actually get paid to do this) is that we lost this deal. I think we got fleeced myself. We overpaid. It would be nice to think for once that we got a good bargain. I think a 2nd and a 3rd would have been a fair price. Hate to see that Isle pick go.

 

[DL44]

If the orginal Horvat trade was:

OUT: Horvat, 2nd
IN : Hronek, Beauvaullier, Raty

I would of been like 'ok i see it.. deals with need and brings in two very good roster spots for a soon to be paid Horvat....'

But having that mystery 1st, and then not having it sucks.

So I'm just gonna think of it all as one big together trade to help cope... ha..

When's he goona be here?