Confirmed with Link: [VAN/DET] Canucks acquire D Filip Hronek, 4th in ‘23 for NYI 1st (condt’l), 2023 2nd - Pt. 2

[timw33]

Thought about this as well at the time of the trade but I decided it's a bit nit-picky as at that point it's conditions upon conditions. Obviously you want to protect yourself as much as possible though. That protection would have value though, so would you have added another 5th to the deal to get that protection in?

I don't know. Just another reason not to do this deal now and wait until the off-season when you have a bit more information.

That's exactly how I feel. I would have preferred to shop those picks before the draft when teams are forced to move money out if they want to make signings and teams are absolutely gah gah about picks. I think you're right and that it is nit picky. I will feel better if NYI can go on a run and devalue the pick a bit more.

At that point you know your pick positions and can look at your draft board and consider whether you think you can get "your guy" or whatever. You're also a few days away from the "interview period" and extension date where you can know what Hronek would cost on an extension.

 

[Josepho]

I'll be surprised if Detroit doesn't trade those picks they just got.

They just signed Larkin long term. If they are not using his timeline to win, what are they doing?

They definitely should've outbid Ottawa for Chychrun.

I don't love the trade for us but I think it's equally weird for Detroit if they don't use the picks well.

 

[Nucker101]

vegas and tampa were supplementing teams that were already very good. vancouver is trading picks just trying to claw their way into the playoffs. it's not even remotely the same situation

Even if it’s not the same situations(I agree with you), they have to pick a damn direction and lean hard into it.

Instead they let Horvat go and still own their own 1sts. If the goal is to start being a perennial playoff team asap then the 1sts need to be in play.

If they hold onto them then once again this team is one foot in and one foot out like cowards.


Look at Dorion in Ottawa using multiple 1sts to add DeBrincat and Chychrun within months.

You can stop at Hronek, Hronek has to just be the beginning of an aggressive shopping spree.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I'll be surprised if Detroit doesn't trade those picks they just got.

They just signed Larkin long term. If they are not using his timeline to win, what are they doing?

Exactly. Detroit sold Hronek at his highest value and avoided paying him a premium price to play behind Seider. They got good value for a UFA in Bertuzzi who they had no interest in keeping. And Detroit is a team we should disparage?

 

[timw33]

NYR is a different situation.

Look at Detroit's 'perfect' rebuild for what can happen. They're in Year 7 and they're now entering the 2nd stage of the rebuild where guys like Hronek and Bertuzzi are being flipped and they're taking a step backward again before Year 8. And 7-8 years in they still have nothing resembling any sort of contending core on the rise.

This whole thread is honestly the most bizarre, hysterical over-reaction to a trade I've ever seen. People are so locked into doing what we should have been doing in 2015 and ACCUMULATE PICKS and it's just not the reality of this team's situation right now.

Yeah you have to account for the Ken Holland start of that rebuild though. I keep forgetting this is Yzerman's fourth season as the GM of DET and would probably look at this in the lens of that as the start of the more concerted effort to rebuild?

 

[ahmon]

Exactly. Detroit sold Hronek at his highest value and avoided paying him a premium price to play behind Seider. They got good value for a UFA in Bertuzzi who they had no interest in keeping. And Detroit is a team we should disparage?

We did the exact same thing with Horvat.

we sold Horvat at his highest value and avoided paying him a premium price to play behind Petey.

 

[m9]

This whole thread is honestly the most bizarre, hysterical over-reaction to a trade I've ever seen. People are so locked into doing what we should have been doing in 2015 and ACCUMULATE PICKS and it's just not the reality of this team's situation right now.

I think in general, people are just asking the team makes the appropriate moves at the appropriate time in both the season and the team's competitive cycle. If your team is bad, sell players at the deadline when draft picks are cheap. In the summer when picks are more valuable and contracted players are cheaper, people will be more open to filling out the roster to field a competitive team for the following season. There are always exceptions if you can extract significant value along the way, but there is nothing to suggest that happened here.

Maybe people aren't wording it as such and you get more "omg why are they trading picks!" posts but you have to factor the timing into all this. Seravalli on 650 this morning (paraphrasing) basically said that it seems like Detroit decided to be sellers because they couldn't resist selling because the returns available were so high. It's a massive problem in terms of process that a team so far out of the playoff picture is buying under these circumstances and shows a complete lack of patience and reading the market. This is all coming off a year where this same team completely misread the winger market.

 

[BimJenning]

Yo this Yzerman worship is whack.

He hasn't materially done anything since being hired as the GM.

That team has been rebuilding for like 7 years now with little to show for.

He legitimately inherited a team with similar cap hell bottoming out as the Canucks are in now, without a Quinn Hughes, Petey, or Demko (Bo = Larkin) but waited out some contracts and built up a prospect base, which is about to get better again in selling into a strong rental market when the East is extremely strong. Like other posters have mentioned, I'm pretty sure that draft capital becomes something in the summer when teams dummy themselves with cap space... Like the Canucks.

The more I think about it, the more it looks like the Canucks ended up with a quantity package for Horvat, ironically. This now looks like a grab bag of guys who just don't move the needle enough, and we lost the best player in the package (not that we had an option in trading him or re-signing, by the time we traded him).

 

[timw33]

This trade is interesting in that it shows that every single player on your team should have a price where you very quickly say "yes" to. It just so happens that we reached that price for Hronek and they acted accordingly, realizing it was a market inefficiency to exploit. I don't think they were out there shopping this player around.

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

I'm a bit confused why Hronek and Hughes can't both play on the #1 PP unit. This teams gives up so many shorthanded goals. I've got no idea why they didn't try this with OEL last season.

 

[Peter Griffin]

We did the exact same thing with Horvat.

we sold Horvat at his highest value and avoided paying him a premium price to play behind Petey.

And then turned around and used the most valuable piece in that trade + another valuable asset to overpay for another offensive defenseman that’s due for a big raise that we really can’t afford.

 

[MS]

and how has the Canucks process worked out? We’ve been flipping picks for win now pieces, signing UFA to big deals and it’s been a decade of failure with a bare prospect pool. Is this really the right way?

I mean, comparing the way that Jim Benning went about things to how normal executives will go about things is kind of pointless.

This team right now has 2 of the 5 most dynamic offensive players in our 53-year history. Your core players dictate your direction and they're going to be built around. They aren't going to run those guys out of town because fans have FOMO about the amount of picks Chicago has accumulated while in a completely different situation.

If this situation is too f***ed and can't be saved and Pettersson forces his way out in a year or two then yup, fire away on a full rebuild and fans can have their treasured pick surplus. But that's never going to happen right now, and it absolutely shouldn't be happening right now.

We absolutely should have done what Chicago is doing back in 2016. But we didn't, and that ship has sailed.

 

[bossram]

I'm not directly comparing the players and/or salary, I'm just saying if Hronek has a similar development post-trade, then I'm fine with the deal.

Prior to the trade, Toews was also seen as an offensive D that is questionable on the D-zone. Now he is an elite 2-way beast and he makes one of the best pairing in the league with Makar.

Hronek is at that similar age as Toews at the time of the trade, lets hope he has a similar development. If he can help take Hughes to the next level, all the better.

Note: I am NOT ok with this trade, I am just trying to rationalize it so that I can remain sane while following this joke of a franchise.

This is just a misunderstanding of what the players are/were. Hronek can't have a similar development arc to Toews because he's just not at all a similar player to Toews.

Toews was perceived as an offense-only defenseman. But that was not the truth. His underlying defensive metrics were sterling. He always graded out very well in the zone exit/transition microstats. He needed the opportunity to use that skillset in a different system (very stark contract between the Trotz Isles and Colorado).

Hronek doesn't have that existing skillset. His strengths are in-zone offence. You don't need to rationzalize this trade. Just accept that this team is a joke and watch it for entertainment only - like a circus clown or reality TV. You know it's terrible, that's why it's good.

 

[Nucker101]

We did the exact same thing with Horvat.

we sold Horvat at his highest value and avoided paying him a premium price to play behind Petey.

This is where the re-tool bros lose me and where @MS was right. If the goal is to compete with EP/Hughes/Miller, then you live with overpaying Horvat by 1-1.5M per year.

To draw such a hard line on an impact player that plays a premium position is mind-boggling if re-tool is the plan here.

You draw those hard lines over role players, not your captain and 20 minute center who can score 30+ goals.

I’ll bet good money that the same re-tool bros who say Horvat wasn’t worth it will be the first ones to defend a future role player overpay.

 

[ahmon]

And then turned around and used the most valuable piece in that trade + another valuable asset to overpay for another offensive defenseman that’s due for a big raise that we really can’t afford.

thats your opinion, you have no idea what he will be signed for.

And disagree, that we don't need offensive dman, when we have Hughes and 5 AHLer on defense.

This trade can fail if Hronek doesn't perform, but the idea that the canucks should not have traded a pick for RHD because we somehow need to keep our picks and rebuild to contend in like 5 years is crazy.

 

[timw33]

I mean, comparing the way that Jim Benning went about things to how normal executives will go about things is kind of pointless.

This team right now has 2 of the 5 most dynamic offensive players in our 53-year history. Your core players dictate your direction and they're going to be built around. They aren't going to run those guys out of town because fans have FOMO about the amount of picks Chicago has accumulated while in a completely different situation.

If this situation is too f***ed and can't be saved and Pettersson forces his way out in a year or two then yup, fire away on a full rebuild and fans can have their treasured pick surplus. But that's never going to happen right now, and it absolutely shouldn't be happening right now.

We absolutely should have done what Chicago is doing back in 2016. But we didn't, and that ship has sailed.

There are elements of this strategy that I definitely agree with.

I just hate that this situation and hinge point was a self inflicted gunshot wound by the previous management the moment they did not sign the two star players for 7 or 8 seasons (among...several other back breaking cap moves) and are at a place where we have to beg, borrow, and steal, to please our franchise player enough that he willingly buys into the plan.

 

[ahmon]

This is where the re-tool bros lose me and where @MS was right. If the goal is to compete with EP/Hughes/Miller, then you live with overpaying Horvat by 1-1.5M per year.

To draw such a hard line on an impact player that plays a premium position is mind-boggling if re-tool is the plan here.

You draw those hard lines over role players, not your captain and 20 minute center who can score 30+ goals.

what does everything have to be so binary?

that if we win now we should keep Horvat?

what if management doesn't buy that Horvat this year is sustainable and that selling him and reallocating to another asset can also mean we are still competing now?

 

[JohnHodgson]

thats your opinion, you have no idea what he will be signed for.

And disagree, that we don't need offensive dman, when we have Hughes and 5 AHLer on defense.

This trade can fail if Hronek doesn't perform, but the idea that the canucks should not have traded a pick for RHD because we somehow need to keep our picks and rebuild to contend in like 5 years is crazy.

Yup... this dude keeps repeating this "MASSIVE EXTENSION" when he's a year and a half away from RFA status and literally hasn't played a game yet in a Canuck uniform.

Like he has some crystal ball or something. He originally suggested $8M+ as a contract comparable.

It's really freaking annoying lol... no idea why some posters feel the need to act like they have a crystal ball.

For all we know, it might end up being a long term deal with lower cap hit (something like $5.5-6M for 7/8 years).

 

[MS]

Anybody want to bet Yzerman is getting Sam Malinski to replace Hronek on a cheap contract and will groom him for a yr or 2 and the difference between the 2 will be very little. Meanwhile the NYI first becomes a rock for their core and the 2nd a quality player also

Yeah you have to account for the Ken Holland start of that rebuild though. I keep forgetting this is Yzerman's fourth season as the GM of DET and would probably look at this in the lens of that as the start of the more concerted effort to rebuild?

Detroit had 13 picks in the first 2 rounds of the 2017-18 drafts. They've been in 'concerted effort to rebuild' for a long time, and I don't think you can just write off those first 3-4 years.

Edit - sorry, 13 picks in the first 3 rounds of those draft instead of their allotted 6. They basically did a Chicago at that point ... and it led to absolutely nothing.

I think in general, people are just asking the team makes the appropriate moves at the appropriate time in both the season and the team's competitive cycle. If your team is bad, sell players at the deadline when draft picks are cheap. In the summer when picks are more valuable and contracted players are cheaper, people will be more open to filling out the roster to field a competitive team for the following season. There are always exceptions if you can extract significant value along the way, but there is nothing to suggest that happened here.

Maybe people aren't wording it as such and you get more "omg why are they trading picks!" posts but you have to factor the timing into all this. Seravalli on 650 this morning (paraphrasing) basically said that it seems like Detroit decided to be sellers because they couldn't resist selling because the returns available were so high. It's a massive problem in terms of process that a team so far out of the playoff picture is buying under these circumstances and shows a complete lack of patience and reading the market. This is all coming off a year where this same team completely misread the winger market.

The flipside to this is that the UFA market for RHD is absolutely horrible this year and there looks to be little on the trade market as well. There would be an opposite viewpoint that when you have a chance to get a young top-4 RHD you're smart to strike while the iron is hot and get it done because otherwise you might end up giving a Tyler Myers contract to Damon Severson or Matt Dumba.

Like, U25 RHD playing 20+ minutes/game simply never get traded. I'd be surprised if it's happened more than once or twice in the last 5 years.

But you might be right. I don't know. It will be very interesting to see the market in June.

 

[Nucker101]

what does everything have to be so binary?

that if we win now we should keep Horvat?

what if management doesn't buy that Horvat this year is sustainable and that selling him and reallocating to another asset can also mean we are still competing now?

Because centers like Horvat at his age don’t become available. He’s an extremely valuable player for a team that wants to win during these next 3-5 years.

Again, you’re way better off signing him and using other future assets to cap dump non-core players who make $4M+ on this roster, which is a very long list.

If it costs you a future first or even more to accomplish that, so be it.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Yo this Yzerman worship is whack.

He hasn't materially done anything since being hired as the GM.

That team has been rebuilding for like 7 years now with little to show for.

Yzerman hasn't been GM for 7 years. What the hell are you on about?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

This is where the re-tool bros lose me and where @MS was right. If the goal is to compete with EP/Hughes/Miller, then you live with overpaying Horvat by 1-1.5M per year.

To draw such a hard line on an impact player that plays a premium position is mind-boggling if re-tool is the plan here.

You draw those hard lines over role players, not your captain and 20 minute center who can score 30+ goals.

I’ll bet good money that the same re-tool bros who say Horvat wasn’t worth it will be the first ones to defend a future role player overpay.

Ehhhhhhhhhhh I see what you are saying, I just think for me Horvat is not the ideal 2C and his league-wide value was inflated.

 

[Nucker101]

Ehhhhhhhhhhh I see what you are saying, I just think for me Horvat is not the ideal 2C and his league-wide value was inflated.

What are the odds you find a more ideal 2C than Horvat during the next year or two?

Very slim.

 

[ahmon]

Because centers like Horvat at his age don’t become available. He’s an extremely valuable player for a team that wants to win during these next 3-5 years.

Again, you’re way better off signing him and using other future assets to cap dump non-core players who make $4M+ on this roster, which is a very long list.

If it costs you a future first or even more to accomplish that, so be it.

I just don't like Horvat as much as you. I think he's overrated, and not even someone I want as a 2nd line C on a winning team.

 

[Nucker101]

I just don't like Horvat as much as you. I think he's overrated, and not even someone I want as a 2nd line C on a winning team.

See my post above