Confirmed Trade: [VAN/CGY] Elias Lindholm for Andrei Kuzmenko, Hunter Brzustewicz, Joni Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond. 2024 4th

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A coach expecting a player to buy into a system (that works), he was a flash in the pan last year in a system that put us in the basement as a team. If your blaming the coach for Kuz sucking this year, you don't understand hockey.
You can't teach Kuzmenko's skill level. I also believe in Kuzmenko's ability to play winning Hockey, even if it didn't work in VAN. He is still a developing player and is fully adapting to NHL-style play. Trading him is a knee-jerk reaction IMO; however, VAN is in the prime of their competitive window so they have to handle their assets this way.
 
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You can't teach Kuzmenko's skill level. I also believe in Kuzmenko's ability to play winning Hockey, even if it didn't work in VAN. He is still a developing player and is fully adapting to NHL-style play. Trading him is a knee-jerk reaction IMO; however, VAN is in the prime of their competitive window so they have to handle their assets this way.

Developing player who is 14 months younger than Lindholm?
 
Guys with Lidholm's stat line usually get a 3rd or maybe 2nd rd pick. Vancouver paid a lot for intangibles and previous glory attributed to Gaudreau and Tkachuk. His playoff performance as a top line C is evident in the Flames "success" as first round fodder.
9 goals and that's in a UFA year, not ideal. Not sure if he really moves the needle for Vancouver.
What about chemistry, a team that's flying high took on a huge risk on a guy that only worked with a magician like Gauderau. What if he turns Petterson into another Huberdeau? I know, extreme case, but chemistry is a funny thing.
Don't like it for Vancouver. A great team like this with such tight chemistry shouldn't gamble like this. Status Quo would have been better.
You could also flip this around and ask how the magician Gaudreau has done without Lindholm? Gaudreau has 7 goals this season. He's -53 without Lindholm. He was +64 in his last season playing with Lindholm. Do you think defensive play doesn't matter? Ask Columbus how that goes. Every player in the league needs quality linemates to help.
 
Look at the numbers? Lindholm's "numbers" are based entirely off of him playing with scrubs and middle 6 guys.

Horvat played significant minutes with Miller and one of Boeser/Garland last year. Those are vastly superior linemates than Lindholm did last year or this year. Even then of his 31 goals and 54 points, only 16 goals and 30 points came at even strength. Besides that he had 10 goals and 17 points on the powerplay, plus 1 goal and 2 points short handed. That leaves 3 goals and 5 points on empty nets.

Lindholm is probably going to be deployed at center for Pettersson and on the first powerplay unit too. There are 33 games left for the Nucks this year, I would not be surprised at all if he gets 45 points in that time.
Toffoli, Huberdeau, Mangiapane, Sharangovich aren't scrubs by any means. And Boeser/Garland last yr were not superior to them.

Being able to score on the PP also counts for offensive production. All top players are also PP performers.

It'll be interesting to see how Lindholm performs in Van though. He will be walking into a far better situation than Horvat left so we should be able to tell if he can contribute offensively.

45 points in 33 games is completely unrealistic. Did you even mean to write that? Thats 111 point pace haha. If he flirted with PPG I think people would be thrilled.
 
Developing player who is 14 months younger than Lindholm?
Developing as in learning NHL-style Hockey and growing through experience, as was evidenced contextually in the very same sentence. This is unlike Lindholm, whom has been playing in the NHL for a decade now.

Unlike the orthodoxy around here though, I am of the mind that actual NHLers develop over the length of their careers and individuals plateau at different ages. Some players keep on getting better into their 30s. Is Lindholm that kind of player? I don't really think so, no.

Don't let me ruin your Gotcha moment though. Good job buddy!
 
A late 1st, b propsect, d prospect, a cap dump and 4th rounder is paying through the nose? LOL it never ceases to amaze me how clueless people are on this forum.
Futures are always going to be overvalued around here.

-1st will be 25 or later most likely. Every few years you get a Oettinger or Pastrnak, but more often than not you get a Ho-Sang or Goldobin. A middle of the lineup player would be a solid pick.
-Hunter B has had a great D+1 year, but it is a very long road from the CHL to NHL. He has a ton of potential, but has 0 guarantees of being an impact player in the league.
-Jurmo has size and is a great skater, but is probably a long shot to get a contract at this point, probably stays in Europe.
-4th is a shot in the dark.

Not saying it's a bad return for the Flames, but there is no sure thing in there. I do think Kuzmenko will get 30 goals for them next year though.
 
Developing as in learning NHL-style Hockey and growing through experience, as was evidenced contextually in the very same sentence. This is unlike Lindholm, whom has been playing in the NHL for a decade now.

Unlike the orthodoxy around here though, I am of the mind that actual NHLers develop over the length of their careers and individuals plateau at different ages. Some players keep on getting better into their 30s. Is Lindholm that kind of player? I don't really think so, no.

Don't let me ruin your Gotcha moment though. Good job buddy!

I'm not trying to do a gotcha by any means—he was given coaching on how he could adapt his game to the new system, had a whole offseason and training camp to make changes and he simply did not adapt. Didn't work out in the the new system, probably will be alright in a different system more similar to what Boudreau was running.

Also, why do we care about Lindholm in his 30's right now? At this stage he's a rental and that's it, they aren't chained down to a long term deal. They'll see how he fits into the team/organization/system and if there's a mutually beneficial relationship then thats when you can start thinking about an extension.
 
A late 1st, b propsect, d prospect, a cap dump and 4th rounder is paying through the nose? LOL it never ceases to amaze me how clueless people are on this forum.

And if you go back five months Boeser and Garland were the worthless cap dumps and Kuzmenko was the 39 goal scorer.

It's funny how quickly things change in the NHL, isn't it? Player values are dependent on many factors.
 
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Toffoli, Huberdeau, Mangiapane, Sharangovich aren't scrubs by any means. And Boeser/Garland last yr were not superior to them.

Being able to score on the PP also counts for offensive production. All top players are also PP performers.

It'll be interesting to see how Lindholm performs in Van though. He will be walking into a far better situation than Horvat left so we should be able to tell if he can contribute offensively.

45 points in 33 games is completely unrealistic. Did you even mean to write that? Thats 111 point pace haha. If he flirted with PPG I think people would be thrilled.
I said "and middle 6 guys." Outside of Huberdeau none of those players are considered anything more than 2nd line players. As for Huberdeau himself, they've barely played together since they have minimal to no chemistry.

Lindholm is an excellent slot shooter and after the departure of Gaudreau and Tkachuk he was forced into the role of a set-up man. It was said on DFO a couple weeks ago but during the 21/22 season Lindholm took something like 47% of his shots from the slot, last year that number dropped to around 30%, and this year it's below 15%. He is absolutely capable of scoring but his ability to do so drops off significantly when he can't get to the slot. Personally I think he's going to have fantastic synergy with Pettersson, even better than he did with Gaudreau (and yes his synergy was more with Gaudreau than Tkachuk, not that Tkachuk didn't also make that line excellent). I don't think it's at all unrealistic for him to get 40 points in these last 33 games if he plays with EP40, and I give that a +/- of 5 points, hence 45.
 
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You could also flip this around and ask how the magician Gaudreau has done without Lindholm? Gaudreau has 7 goals this season. He's -53 without Lindholm. He was +64 in his last season playing with Lindholm. Do you think defensive play doesn't matter? Ask Columbus how that goes. Every player in the league needs quality linemates to help.
If you are trying to argue Lindholm is just as good at generating offense as Gaudreau then you may have missed their entirely time in Calgary

Not only Lindholm not producing, he looked bad this year.
 
Seems like an incredible trade for CGY IMO. Kuzmenko being a "throw-in" is insane. Can't argue against Tocchet's results, but it is a huge blunder to coach a guy of this skill level out the door.

The Canucks are 2nd in the league in scoring, so it isn't a situation where skilled players are being throttled. He was lucky last year and probably unlucky this year. Probably more of a 20 to 25 goal scorer if he doesn't learn to shoot more.

Decent player, but his contract made him a throw-in for this deal.
 
Futures are always going to be overvalued around here.

-1st will be 25 or later most likely. Every few years you get a Oettinger or Pastrnak, but more often than not you get a Ho-Sang or Goldobin. A middle of the lineup player would be a solid pick.
-Hunter B has had a great D+1 year, but it is a very long road from the CHL to NHL. He has a ton of potential, but has 0 guarantees of being an impact player in the league.
-Jurmo has size and is a great skater, but is probably a long shot to get a contract at this point, probably stays in Europe.
-4th is a shot in the dark.

Not saying it's a bad return for the Flames, but there is no sure thing in there. I do think Kuzmenko will get 30 goals for them next year though.
HFBoards has EA-Brain, where they see 5 assets moving and immediately chalk that up as a huge amount to give up. Last week we were talking about giving Kuzmenko away to Chicago for free lol.
 
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Seems like an incredible trade for CGY IMO. Kuzmenko being a "throw-in" is insane. Can't argue against Tocchet's results, but it is a huge blunder to coach a guy of this skill level out the door.
You say you can't argue with the results, and then literally argue that he made a blunder baha.

Vancouver has got to the top of the league and with the highest scoring offense without any contributions from Kuzmenko. It would have been great if he turned it around but the fact is he's been a complete liability this year, despite the coach spending time with him 1-on-1 on multiple occasions,\ and countless opportunities in-game. This isn't on Tocchet, this is a KHL player being unable to adapt to a rigorous defensive style. I'm sure he'll do great in CGY and maybe he'll even learn to play in both zones, but Vancouver can't afford to wait on that. As of right now, he simply can't be trusted to make the right play or not extend his shifts.
 
HFBoards has EA-Brain, where they see 5 assets moving and immediately chalk that up as a huge amount to give up. Last week we were talking about giving Kuzmenko away to Chicago for free lol.
I would think Kuzmenko is a big hit or miss. If he turns it around in CGY it turns the trade into a overwhelming win for CGY. Just the 1st, 4th + Brzustewicz tips the scales in CGY's favor and that still comes with the caveat that Lindholm will elevate his game in a new environment playing with EP. But overall, I can't fault Van for making this deal. May seal a visit to the cup finals.
 
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I would think Kuzmenko is a big hit or miss. If he turns it around in CGY it turns the trade into a overwhelming win for CGY. Just the 1st, 4th + Brzustewicz tips the scales in CGY's favor and that still comes with the caveat that Lindholm will elevate his game in a new environment playing with EP. But overall, I can't fault Van for making this deal. May seal a visit to the cup finals.
Meh, if Kuzmenko has success in CGY, it will be playing a brand of hockey that would get him benched in Vancouver. I expect him to do well getting fed PP time for the rest of the year. If he goes ppg throughout the back half of the season, I still wouldn't consider than additional lost value. He can electric, and is extremely likeable, just couldn't understand how to play Van's system.
 
If you are trying to argue Lindholm is just as good at generating offense as Gaudreau then you may have missed their entirely time in Calgary

Not only Lindholm not producing, he looked bad this year.
I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying the sum of Lindholm and Gaudreau was better than either of them individually. Gaudreau the season Lindholm arrived put up 99 points with Lindholm at RW and Monahan up the middle. Then they moved Lindholm to C on a different line. Gaudreau put up 58 points and 49 (shortened season) in those 2 seasons. They made the purple gatorade line and Gaudreau put up 115 while playing with Lindholm and Tkachuk (the best linemates he has ever had).

He went to columbus where he currently has 7 goals and 32 points while being -20. Good players are always better when they play with other good players. Gaudreau isn't playing with good players now, neither is Lindholm. Both have struggled, Gaudreau more so than Lindholm.
 
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