Raptors Discussion: v93 | Panic level rising significantly

[Amadeus]

I'm getting a little concerned with what's developing on the Raptors management side.

Masai went on record a month or so ago and said that Bobby Webster's extension was all but sealed but there hasn't been any word since then.

The offseason was very poorly handled, in my opinion. We could have acquired Cousins and Woods who were looking like ideal fits post Gasol and Obama's departures. I just don't think anything was done to really improve the team at all.

 

[Stylizer1]

When your teams top scorer is 41st in the league you know there is a problem.

 

[BAM]

They’re still a top 10 defense by end of year barring injury. They’d be in the running for best, again, if they had a better paint anchor.

With free agent trade restrictions lifting in February, I’d be surprised if they don’t look to add someone more mobile to fit their scheme. Some suggested JaVale McGee from Cleveland would come cheap after their Jarrett Allen acquisition. Definitely has his limitations but he’s mobile and active, defends the rim, and he’ll get easy buckets in the paint on dunks and lobs. Played his best in Golden State with a floor general in Draymond Green that was able to simplify the game for him. I think Kyle Lowry could do the same.

Getting the top draft pick you’re looking for requires several trades, not just Kyle Lowry. Given that they’ve spent almost a decade building this winning culture, I find it hard to believe they’ll be quick to blow it up right now, especially with the ink barely dry on Siakam, Anunoby, and Fred VanVleet’s contracts.

Name one franchise in the last 30-40 years that tanked and went on to win with assets they tanked for. I’ll save you the time - the Spurs are the only one even close when they drafted Tim Duncan in a year David Robinson was hurt. Warriors kind of did last year with their two best players out, too. Remains to be seen if they win with Wiseman but that’s not really the same, either.

Neither is the same as blowing it up and being a doormat for 3-5+ years.

A winning culture is overrated, without the Kawhi trade the Lowry and DD era was basically the Atlanta Hawks from 2007-2017

 

[Eyedea]

When your teams top scorer is 41st in the league you know there is a problem.

I don’t think that’s the whole issue. Their scoring is middle of the pack and defence is 10th, and they are slightly above the likes of Dallas and Boston in net rating. The main problem is they’re lacking consistency. 8 losses in their first 10 games, 4 within 1-2 possessions, and now 4 wins in their last 5.

 

[sparxx87]

A winning culture is overrated, without the Kawhi trade the Lowry and DD era was basically the Atlanta Hawks from 2007-2017

Depends. Some major US markets will always have an opportunity to sign impactful free agents that can dramatically alter a team. At that point they shuffle rotation players to fit around their star. The Lakers were bad for several years but with two transactions they went from bottom 5 to top 5. The Raptors have never been able to do that so I think it’s more important to build a winning program while continuing to accumulate young assets and being aggressive in trades. Tanking in less attractive markets usually produces teams like Minnesota and Sacramento.

That Hawks team you mentioned with Horford and Millsap were one ‘futures for proven star’ trade from being a true contender.. The pre Kawhi Raptors were built the same.

 

[mcleex]

Malachi Flynn has been really unimpressive IMO

 

[BAM]

Depends. Some major US markets will always have an opportunity to sign impactful free agents that can dramatically alter a team. At that point they shuffle rotation players to fit around their star. The Lakers were bad for several years but with two transactions they went from bottom 5 to top 5. The Raptors have never been able to do that so I think it’s more important to build a winning program while continuing to accumulate young assets and being aggressive in trades. Tanking in less attractive markets usually produces teams like Minnesota and Sacramento.

That Hawks team you mentioned with Horford and Millsap were one ‘futures for proven star’ trade from being a true contender.. The pre Kawhi Raptors were built the same.

A winning culture didn't bring the Raps a title, trading a drafted and developed lottery pick for a top 3 player in the world is how the Raps won a title. And that's my point, the Raps of the DD and Lowry era were nothing more than the Hawks north, that's not to be applauded for a winning culture.

The Raps can't attract superstars until proven otherwise, the only other way to get a top 3-5 player is through the draft or through a trade.

Celtics - Brown, Tatum
Sixers - Embiid, Simmons
Mavs - Doncic
Warriors - Curry
Bucks - Giannis
Hawks - Young
Pels - Zion

Just some examples of those teams that drafted their star players, they all have brighter futures than the Raps because they have their franchise player through the draft.

 

[xtra]

You can’t remove the Kwahi trade and championship and say they aren’t a winning culture.

Cause you could simply argue that with no Lebron in the east the DD/Lowry teams probably go to one or two finals themselves.

The raptors have one of the best winning percentages since the Rudy gay trade in the entire NBA.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[BAM]

You can’t remove the Kwahi trade and championship and say they aren’t a winning culture.

Cause you could simply argue that with no Lebron in the east the DD/Lowry teams probably go to one or two finals themselves.

The raptors have one of the best winning percentages since the Rudy gay trade in the entire NBA.

Without the Kawhi trade the Raptors were never a championship contender, that is a fact. DD or Lowry were never top 5-10 players in the NBA.

And that's not the same comparison at all, Lebron WAS in the East, DD and Lowry DID NOT make it past Lebron at any point. Those things all happened, there's no hypothetical required. The Raps pre Kawhi were a great regular season team that struggled during the playoffs against the Cavs.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Can OG be like that more consistently? Not saying he will be averaging 30 points a game, but play great offence and defence every night.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Can OG be like that more consistently? Not saying he will be averaging 30 points a game, but play great offence and defence every night.

We'll see. I was hoping he'd take a big step forward on offence this season, last night was a glimpse of what I've been waiting for. Awesome game OG, keep it up!

 

[GoonieFace]

Can OG be like that more consistently? Not saying he will be averaging 30 points a game, but play great offence and defence every night.

OG is always better when he drives to the net. It opens up other aspects of his game. Sometimes it helps having more time with the ball as well, meaning with Siakam and Lowry out, he gets more opportunities. This is the main problem with the team this year. Siakam has been awful and he eats up a lot of offensive possessions.

Finally Nurse has realized Davis is a detriment to this team. Too many turnovers and lapses on defence. Not sure what he sees is Watanabe either. Guy is a chicken with his head cut off, and isn’t much on offence either.

Hopefully they can keep up the effort.

 

[sparxx87]

A winning culture didn't bring the Raps a title, trading a drafted and developed lottery pick for a top 3 player in the world is how the Raps won a title. And that's my point, the Raps of the DD and Lowry era were nothing more than the Hawks north, that's not to be applauded for a winning culture.

The Raps can't attract superstars until proven otherwise, the only other way to get a top 3-5 player is through the draft or through a trade.

Celtics - Brown, Tatum
Sixers - Embiid, Simmons
Mavs - Doncic
Warriors - Curry
Bucks - Giannis
Hawks - Young
Pels - Zion

Just some examples of those teams that drafted their star players, they all have brighter futures than the Raps because they have their franchise player through the draft.

Both are true. They don’t win without Kawhi, but they aren’t in a position to make that trade without the foundation they’d built for 7-8 years. They’ve been a model franchise since 2016 and that seems to get overlooked. They did a great job of accumulating assets and building a deep and balanced roster that fit their culture and play style. When they saw an opportunity, they made two trades to catapult them from good to great.

They could do that again. It’s the Pat Riley Miami Heat model.

Most teams couldn’t have traded for Leonard and Gasol and still had the pieces in place to win.

Celtics didn’t tank. Tatum and Brown were Brooklyn picks.

Sixers haven’t won. The process has gone on for several years now and their best chance to win came with Jimmy Butler who was acquired by trade.

Mavs have had their culture for two decades. Dirk got old and they had to take a step back. Draft Luka, trade for KP, and they’re still a notch below the top contenders.

Warriors have had a winning culture built on defense. Green was a 2nd round pick and Iguodala was a free agent. They drafted Klay at 11 and developed him well beyond his draft slot. Curry was the same. He was talented, but didn’t have HOF goat type of projections.

Bucks haven’t won and didn’t really tank for Giannis. They developed someone beyond his draft slot. They’re still a flawed team without much depth. I’d bet Brooklyn, Miami and possibly Boston and Philly beat them out this year.

Hawks and the Pelicans are loaded with talent but they’re still mediocre. Trae Young has no idea how to run and offense and Zion is still pretty limited offensively. Brandon Ingram is their best player but he came through trade. Ironically, for Anthony Davis, a player they bottomed out to draft and never won a playoff round with.

The Sixers are the only team that tanked for their two key players and have a chance to win with them.

 

[sparxx87]

....

Finally Nurse has realized Davis is a detriment to this team. Too many turnovers and lapses on defence. Not sure what he sees is Watanabe either. Guy is a chicken with his head cut off, and isn’t much on offence either.

Hopefully they can keep up the effort.

Actually, he said the opposite about Davis. If you listen to his postgame, he “wanted to get Terence out for a minute to settle him down... Bembry came in, played well and took his run” .. He put him back in the 3rd for a minute but subbed for matchups shortly after.

Not sure why you’re so opposed to them giving a young player with talent and physical tools a little more run to work it out. He’s done a lot of very good things in the past few games and if they can get him under control he’s a very useful bench piece with much needed scoring pop at all 3 levels.

As far as Watanabe, he’s done a great job in his role. I wanted them to bring back Rondae for that but Yuta has a much better offensive game. Doesn’t have the first step or quickness off the floor but he does almost everything else better. His job is to play with energy, rebound, box out, contest shots etc, and he’s done all of that surprisingly well.

He’s a high IQ player that can dribble, pass and shoot at 6’9, and doesn’t hurt you on defense. Hard to be mad at that on a two way contract.

 

[GoonieFace]

Actually, he said the opposite about Davis. If you listen to his postgame, he “wanted to get Terence out for a minute to settle him down... Bembry came in, played well and took his run” .. He put him back in the 3rd for a minute but subbed for matchups shortly after.

Not sure why you’re so opposed to them giving a young player with talent and physical tools a little more run to work it out. He’s done a lot of very good things in the past few games and if they can get him under control he’s a very useful bench piece with much needed scoring pop at all 3 levels.

As far as Watanabe, he’s done a great job in his role. I wanted them to bring back Rondae for that but Yuta has a much better offensive game. Doesn’t have the first step or quickness off the floor but he does almost everything else better. His job is to play with energy, rebound, box out, contest shots etc, and he’s done all of that surprisingly well.

He’s a high IQ player that can dribble, pass and shoot at 6’9, and doesn’t hurt you on defense. Hard to be mad at that on a two way contract.

I don’t buy that. He could have easily found a spot to put him back into the game and he didn’t. The game before he had 5 turnovers.

IMO, if you are going to give a journeyman minutes, it should be Watson over Watanabe.

 

[sparxx87]

I don’t buy that. He could have easily found a spot to put him back into the game and he didn’t. The game before he had 5 turnovers.

IMO, if you are going to give a journeyman minutes, it should be Watson over Watanabe.

Listen for yourself. Whether you buy it or not, Nurse has never minced words, especially with Davis.

You’re right, he turns the ball over too often and makes mistakes on defense, but all of his mistakes are correctable (do you remember young Norman Powell, jumping into traffic and throwing the ball out of bounds?)

He does so many little things that you can’t teach with his athleticism, and he has some overlooked details in his game that might not be as easy to spot. This video was made last year gives a pretty good breakdown on his skill set.




No doubt he’s still raw and makes mistakes, but there could be a lot of upside in this player.

 

[GoonieFace]

Listen for yourself. Whether you buy it or not, Nurse has never minced words, especially with Davis.

You’re right, he turns the ball over too often and makes mistakes on defense, but all of his mistakes are correctable (do you remember young Norman Powell, jumping into traffic and throwing the ball out of bounds?)

He does so many little things that you can’t teach with his athleticism, and he has some overlooked details in his game that might not be as easy to spot. This video was made last year gives a pretty good breakdown on his skill set.




No doubt he’s still raw and makes mistakes, but there could be a lot of upside in this player.

I get the comparisons, but to me Davis just seems selfish. It really rubbed me the wrong way when Lowry was giving him pointers on defence and he wasn’t even paying attention. Powell was a bit erratic but it always seemed as a result of trying too hard. Davis just seems like a selfish player. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the vibe i get

 

[Maplebeasts]

Malachi Flynn has been really unimpressive IMO

Hard to impress when you barely play. Expectations shouldn't be so high for a late first rounder immediately following their draft anyways.

 

[sparxx87]

I get the comparisons, but to me Davis just seems selfish. It really rubbed me the wrong way when Lowry was giving him pointers on defence and he wasn’t even paying attention. Powell was a bit erratic but it always seemed as a result of trying too hard. Davis just seems like a selfish player. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the vibe i get

I don’t remember the time with Lowry but I guess I tend to think he’d set Davis straight after the game if he perceived it that way. Kyle has never been scared to stop the bus and slap somebody.

I got the impression his teammates loved him when watching Open Gym, and when we saw him go off against the Bulls and Hornets last year, Fred and Norm specifically. Serge kind of took him under his wing and was his ‘vet’ last year as well. That was a big loss for Davis in particular both on and off the court. I would guess a large portion of his assists were to Serge on mostly dump-offs in the paint. Like most guards, he operates much better in the p&r with a screener that can roll and pop. I’d like to see more two man game with him and both OG and Boucher. He’s shown a bit of chemistry with Boucher, and I think it’s another way to get OG more paint touches with Terence a threat to attack the rim if he gets a step.

He isn’t a point guard and isn’t making high level reads but he’s a willing passer. If he keeps it simple and doesn’t try to do too much he can be very good. His skill and athleticism coupled with that aggressiveness gives him potential to be an impact player. I also think you see little things with strength, toughness and fearlessness likely developed playing high school football in Mississippi that add to his unique skill set. Guards jumping over bigs for putback dunks is something you don’t teach. That ball hawk instinct with strength and quickness can be a great asset on defense

Nothing is for certain but I think he could be a very good player in another year or two. He just needs reps.



Definitely agree with wanting to see Watson but there isn’t a spot for him right now. Stanley Johnson came out of nowhere playing well and took a lot of those wing minutes off the bench. If he maintains this level of play their defense will get them to 6th in the East and probably higher, and all without a starting caliber 5.

 

[Plat87]

Malachi Flynn has been really unimpressive IMO

He needs the G-League bad, he's not ready yet.

 

[GoonieFace]

Nurse is like most Toronto fans and is enamoured with hustle without talent. I get the need for good defenders, but when you need scoring, Stanley Johnson and Watanabe are just not cutting it. They remind me of a checking line, which works in hockey, not the modern NBA. I mean they probably have one of the best pure shooters on the league rotting on the bench, so he can play some scrubs. I know Matt Thomas isn’t perfect, but they could really use the offence.

 

[BAM]

Nurse is like most Toronto fans and is enamoured with hustle without talent. I get the need for good defenders, but when you need scoring, Stanley Johnson and Watanabe are just not cutting it. They remind me of a checking line, which works in hockey, not the modern NBA. I mean they probably have one of the best pure shooters on the league rotting on the bench, so he can play some scrubs. I know Matt Thomas isn’t perfect, but they could really use the offence.

The problem with Thomas is that he's very poor defensively, the net returns so far haven't been pretty.

 

[GoonieFace]

The problem with Thomas is that he's very poor defensively, the net returns so far haven't been pretty.

Lots of NBA players are poor defensively. They have enough defensive minded players, they need someone that can spark the offence. He is an underrated passer as well. I would much rather have him out there than a bunch of plugs

 

[sparxx87]

Lots of NBA players are poor defensively. They have enough defensive minded players, they need someone that can spark the offence. He is an underrated passer as well. I would much rather have him out there than a bunch of plugs

Poor by NBA standards is one thing but Thomas is poor by LA fitness standards. As BAM said, the net returns haven’t been pretty. In fact, they’re downright ugly. I’m not a stats guy but weighing his impact vs the other wings on the team is pretty staggering. The numbers definitely match the eye.

All these ‘plugs’ you speak of make far more positive impact than Thomas and it’s not even really close.