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Raptors Discussion: v93 | Panic level rising significantly

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hamzarocks said:
KD also outplayed Lebron in 2012 but had zero support from Westbrook and Harden. Man was dropping 31 ppg on 50+ shooting. He was the best player that series for either team but his support failed while Lebron had Wade/Bosh/Miller(hit 7 3s one game I think) all tep it up and get job done along with his great performance.

Plus 2017 lebron had Kyrie + POV while KD had Curry + Klay + Dray. The situations reversed with KDs stars supporting him well with Lebron not getting good support outside of Kyrie who matched Curry.
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Why do you think those shooters had good games? It's literally in Lebron's game to primarily be a playmaker. Durant can't touch Lebron in terms of passing, he is primarily a scorer.

Durant had 30/6/2 on 548/394/839 shooting while Lebron had 28/10/7

I suggest you look at the playoff resume's of James, Leonard and Durant. Other than casual fan stats like ppg Durant is distinctly behind James and Leonard in terms of playoff impact historically across the various advanced stats.

1. James
2. Leonard
3. Durant

That's the order if you're ranking their postseason numbers + advanced stats+ability to turn it up compared to regular season. James and Leonard are in a class separate to that of Durant when it comes to this stuff. If you actually knew the numbers then you'd know that prior to joining GS, Durant continuously experienced Harden-esque playoff failures.
 
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How the trade breaks down:

Brooklyn gets:
James Harden
Cleveland 2nd in 2024

Houston gets:
Victor Oladipo
Dante Exum
Rodions Kurucs
Brooklyn 1st in 2022
Cleveland 1st in 2022 (via Milwaukee)
Brooklyn 1st in 2024
Brooklyn 1st in 2026
Swap 1sts with Brooklyn in 2021
Swap 1sts with Brooklyn in 2023
Swap 1sts with Brooklyn in 2025
Swap 1sts with Brooklyn in 2027
Future Indiana 2nd round pick

Indiana gets:
Caris LeVert

Cleveland gets:
Jarrett Allen
Taurean Prince


The Nets are either going to be the best offensive team in the NBA or a total dumpster fire that implodes from the stress of managing 3 high-usage, ball-dominant lead players, two of whom are also known to be sulky and pouty when they aren't at the center of all the attention and focus. It's going to be a tightrope walk for that set to coexist.

I feel really bad for Steve Nash too. With Harden and co flexing their power the way they have, they'll probably never listen to him and just go out and wing it under Irving's ridiculous "Steve's not always the coach. Sometimes I'm the coach. Sometimes the other guys are the coach." mentality.

I have no idea if those pick swaps for Houston and Brooklyn are optional, but if they aren't then the Rockets are banking on the Nets being a wreck or their ability to rebound into a highly competitive team in a hurry.
 
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Funny thing is this big 3 of Durant, Harden and Kyrie is worse than the GS big 3 of Durant, Curry, Thompson. Curry and Thompson are two of the most unselfish players in the league and great off-ball. Good luck telling flat earth to stand in a corner and be the 3rd best player on his hometown team in crunch time. The Nets would be better served trading Kyrie for much needed rotation pieces tbh.
 
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BAM said:
Harden is already available
KAT could want out any day now but probably more noise around the draft/free agency.
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I'm ecstatic that Harden isn't available. Cannot stand him. As for KAT, is there any truth to Jimmy Butler not wanting to resign in Minny was due to KAT and Wiggins being the type of players who were more comfortable with getting their paycheck than winning games (I realize there is zero comparison to playing in Miami as opposed to Minny)? I don't believe I read that anywhere. More like it seemed to want you to think that was the reason.
 
Beleafer34 said:
I'm ecstatic that Harden isn't available. Cannot stand him. As for KAT, is there any truth to Jimmy Butler not wanting to resign in Minny was due to KAT and Wiggins being the type of players who were more comfortable with getting their paycheck than winning games (I realize there is zero comparison to playing in Miami as opposed to Minny)? I don't believe I read that anywhere. More like it seemed to want you to think that was the reason.
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I think certain players develop bad habits playing on horrible teams/organizations. Similar to my earlier post about not trading FVV or Siakam to insulate the development of Suggs/Cunningham (if Raps can get one of them), the Wolves are an example of what happens when you have highly-skilled, high draft picks that are in a losing environment.

I don't think KAT is going to be a two-way force like AD or Embiid but he is a special player offensively. Surround him with solid/great defenders and who knows how he'd look.
 
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Beleafer34 said:
I'm ecstatic that Harden isn't available. Cannot stand him. As for KAT, is there any truth to Jimmy Butler not wanting to resign in Minny was due to KAT and Wiggins being the type of players who were more comfortable with getting their paycheck than winning games (I realize there is zero comparison to playing in Miami as opposed to Minny)? I don't believe I read that anywhere. More like it seemed to want you to think that was the reason.
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Jimmy Butler told no lies in his practice tirade

Butler + 3rd stringers beating the Wolves starters is one of the best NBA stories. I wouldn’t touch Wiggins with a 39 1/2 foot pole, and I’m extremely skeptical of KAT. Nobody can deny his talent, but some question his drive and commitment to winning. Maybe a change of scenery could inspire him, but that’ll be a steep price for someone with those type of question marks.


I would have been down with them doing what Cleveland did, using a second round pick to grab Jarrett Allen and Taurean Prince. Allen that athletic rim runner and paint defender/rebounder they could really use. Prince a decent front court player whose a bit overpaid this and next year, but gives them another versatile bench option that can play small and power forward at 6’7-6’8.

Waive Thomas and one of Len/Baynes.
 
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BAM said:
Why do you think those shooters had good games? It's literally in Lebron's game to primarily be a playmaker. Durant can't touch Lebron in terms of passing, he is primarily a scorer.

Durant had 30/6/2 on 548/394/839 shooting while Lebron had 28/10/7

I suggest you look at the playoff resume's of James, Leonard and Durant. Other than casual fan stats like ppg Durant is distinctly behind James and Leonard in terms of playoff impact historically across the various advanced stats.

1. James
2. Leonard
3. Durant

That's the order if you're ranking their postseason numbers + advanced stats+ability to turn it up compared to regular season. James and Leonard are in a class separate to that of Durant when it comes to this stuff. If you actually knew the numbers then you'd know that prior to joining GS, Durant continuously experienced Harden-esque playoff failures.
Click to expand...

Which year did OKC choke besides 2016?


2011: They make it to the WCF before getting Swept by a determined and incredible Mavs team. KD puts up 28.5/8/3 on solid shooting with Harden being a Nothing player at the time and Westbrook being a fringe all star level guy

2012 they were the under dog with Bron+Wade > KD+Westbrook

Durant had a amazing playoffs with him average 28.5/7/4 on 52% shooting. Harden and Westbrook play terrible in the finals and the Thunder fall to a deeper Heat team led by Lebron

2013: Westbrook gets injured early on and KD with little support falls in 5 to the Grizzlies. Perhaps he could have shot better but still playing as the primary option against a great defensive team in the Grizzlies he still poured points in. Jusy had little support. Similar to 2005-2010 Lebron where he put great numbers but had poor shooting and unclutch moments. Puts 31/9/6 on 45.5% from the field

2014: KD wins reg season MVP. Goes out and plays crazy good to get the Thunder to ECF. They miss Ibaka first two games and end up falling in 6. He loses to the spurs in 6 while Lebron ends up going home in 5 in the finals. He got criticized for missing a clutch game tying 3 I believe this year. Averages 30/9/4 on 46% from the field which is insane performance overall

2015: KDs legacy is impacted by injuries like this post year. The Weat was weak and the Warriors were beatable this year with the Cavs and the east being really soft. He misses the entire playoffs and 55 games in reg season with major foot injury. Loses his best chance at a ring with the Thunder

2016: Final year there. This year he no doubt choked vs the Warriors as despite great statline getting 28/7/3 he shot terrible overall at 43% which was mostly due to disappearing in game 6 and 7.

His 2013, 2014 and 2016 performances are very similar to Lebrons 2008 and 2010, 2011 performances with both players failing to step up and deliver in clutch moments

Kawhi is an elite player but Playoff wise he is behind KD. KD has lost 2 years (2015, 2020) in which he would have been a final 4 team at the minimum if he had been healthy.

Lebron started winning once he got players to support him. Wade for the first two years was a top 7 player and the last two still a top 20 who could deliver in clutch moments. He had Bosha top 10 PF), Allen, Battier, Miller as great supporting shooters who helped make sure he couldnt he closed down and prevented from scoring with efficiency like we saw from 2008-2011.

KD saw the exact same happen to him when he joined the Warriors.

2017-2019 Curry was a consistent top 5 player

2017-2019 Klay was a consistent top 7 SG

KD did have another supporting star player but Draymond was mostly there for defense and leadership rather than offensive and spacing contributions.

KD has never been dominated in a final series by Lebron. If they meet this year in the finals we will see who is better with both having elite teams though the Nets being idiots and getting an offensive hog in Harden hurts their chances of winning
 
hamzarocks said:
Which year did OKC choke besides 2016?


2011: They make it to the WCF before getting Swept by a determined and incredible Mavs team. KD puts up 28.5/8/3 on solid shooting with Harden being a Nothing player at the time and Westbrook being a fringe all star level guy

2012 they were the under dog with Bron+Wade > KD+Westbrook

Durant had a amazing playoffs with him average 28.5/7/4 on 52% shooting. Harden and Westbrook play terrible in the finals and the Thunder fall to a deeper Heat team led by Lebron

2013: Westbrook gets injured early on and KD with little support falls in 5 to the Grizzlies. Perhaps he could have shot better but still playing as the primary option against a great defensive team in the Grizzlies he still poured points in. Jusy had little support. Similar to 2005-2010 Lebron where he put great numbers but had poor shooting and unclutch moments. Puts 31/9/6 on 45.5% from the field

2014: KD wins reg season MVP. Goes out and plays crazy good to get the Thunder to ECF. They miss Ibaka first two games and end up falling in 6. He loses to the spurs in 6 while Lebron ends up going home in 5 in the finals. He got criticized for missing a clutch game tying 3 I believe this year. Averages 30/9/4 on 46% from the field which is insane performance overall

2015: KDs legacy is impacted by injuries like this post year. The Weat was weak and the Warriors were beatable this year with the Cavs and the east being really soft. He misses the entire playoffs and 55 games in reg season with major foot injury. Loses his best chance at a ring with the Thunder

2016: Final year there. This year he no doubt choked vs the Warriors as despite great statline getting 28/7/3 he shot terrible overall at 43% which was mostly due to disappearing in game 6 and 7.

His 2013, 2014 and 2016 performances are very similar to Lebrons 2008 and 2010, 2011 performances with both players failing to step up and deliver in clutch moments

Kawhi is an elite player but Playoff wise he is behind KD. KD has lost 2 years (2015, 2020) in which he would have been a final 4 team at the minimum if he had been healthy.

Lebron started winning once he got players to support him. Wade for the first two years was a top 7 player and the last two still a top 20 who could deliver in clutch moments. He had Bosha top 10 PF), Allen, Battier, Miller as great supporting shooters who helped make sure he couldnt he closed down and prevented from scoring with efficiency like we saw from 2008-2011.

KD saw the exact same happen to him when he joined the Warriors.

2017-2019 Curry was a consistent top 5 player

2017-2019 Klay was a consistent top 7 SG

KD did have another supporting star player but Draymond was mostly there for defense and leadership rather than offensive and spacing contributions.

KD has never been dominated in a final series by Lebron. If they meet this year in the finals we will see who is better with both having elite teams though the Nets being idiots and getting an offensive hog in Harden hurts their chances of winning
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1. I'm not reading all that

2. The Thunder were the betting favourites against the Heat in 2011-12, go look it up.
 
BAM said:
Funny thing is this big 3 of Durant, Harden and Kyrie is worse than the GS big 3 of Durant, Curry, Thompson. Curry and Thompson are two of the most unselfish players in the league and great off-ball. Good luck telling flat earth to stand in a corner and be the 3rd best player on his hometown team in crunch time. The Nets would be better served trading Kyrie for much needed rotation pieces tbh.
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I actually agree with this 100%. I wouldnt want him but getting someone with the mentality of a Lowry fits far better (or if Dinwiddie was healthy).
 
chaosrevolver said:
I actually agree with this 100%. I wouldnt want him but getting someone with the mentality of a Lowry fits far better (or if Dinwiddie was healthy).
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The irony of that is that Irving would benefit the Raptors far more than Brooklyn, and Lowry would benefit Brooklyn at this point in his career far more than Toronto. Lowry know's his role, think of him letting Siakam and Leonard do their thing but instead it's Durant and Harden...a massive upgrade.

Irving on the other hand would give the Raptors what they sorely lack, a clutch, late-game option that is great at creating offence. He similar to Harden by providing the Raptors a solution to their biggest problem, a consistent, 1st option scorer that they've lacked since Kawhi and someone that pushes FVV and Siakam down to their ideal roles.
 
KAT if available, you do it in a heart beat. He would become the franchise, put it on it's back and we would be on the road to glory...Again.

I'm a big fan clearly lol, he's a good dude, change of scenery would do him great and if Ujuri stays, he would become a champion.
 
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Raptors and Leafs winning again. Great night for the city of Toronto

Raptors slowly crawling their way back to .500 now with the win putting them at 5-8

In the east 34-35 wins should he enough for with seed.

I still think come game 40-45 if raptors are 6th seed or above, we should deal our 1st and go after Drummond to upgrade the center position. Not sure what the salary pieces would look like. But I think adding Drummond would give us a shot to make some noise come playoffs and we would have another asset we could see next year (Powell, Drummond, Lowry if he asks for a deal) to gain back picks and enter a rebuild


Go for one more decent run with the squad imo if the team keeps on winning
 
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