The Columbus Dispatch: Umberger wants out (Dispatch link post #276)

[blahblah]

Regardless of how you feel about RJ, this is kind of a lesson on what can (and is probably likely) to happen when you scratch players. Especially veterans.

Keep this in mind when you beg the coaching staff to scratch one. You might be able to get away with a wake up call scratching, but if you do it repeatedly you will damage your relationship with the player. It can also have a trickle effect in the locker room (don't look like that happened here). I know a lot of you love that result.

As far as RJ, this isn't exactly surprising. I'm not sure either side has been thrilled with the other.

My opinion. This has been two or three years in the coming. As I said at the beginning of this thread; if you want to improve you have to upgrade positions and use the cap wisely. RJ was a candidate for the former and his cap hit wasn't very good. There are just too many forwards that offer the same or more for less.

I'm sure he'll have value around the league. Not sure we'll get much of anything out of him. Getting rid of the majority of his salary, as opposed to return, will probably be the focus. I could see us taking on a questionable player in the last year of his contract at a similar contract or another player that needs a change of scenery.

 

[Samkow]

Thanks for posting this. I think the key point JD made was that to get better you have to keep evolving. Too many fans fail to see that or get emotionally connected to players. When I watch teams like the Blackhawks or Kings, I see a world of difference between them and the Jackets.

Yep. Remember similar hand wringing over Vinny Prospal. That worked out fairly well.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

good riddance

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Regardless of how you feel about RJ, this is kind of a lesson on what can (and is probably likely) to happen when you scratch players. Especially veterans.

Keep this in mind when you beg the coaching staff to scratch one. You might be able to get away with a wake up call scratching, but if you do it repeatedly you will damage your relationship with the player. It can also have a trickle effect in the locker room (don't look like that happened here). I know a lot of you love that result.

On the other hand you get fair competition going on and guys trying to earn their roles instead of someone just taking the occasional surf during regular season...

Personally I think it is even strange that rotation (beyond absolute key players) doesn't happen even that easily or often barring injuries. If quality depth is everything for success in 30+ games soccer season you could think that going through 80+ games while having good material depth would mean alot. Hence why acquiring all the comeaus, skilles and tropps of the world.

 

[DarkandStormy]

So he's pissed about the "healthy scratches" late in the season, but then comes out a day after the season ends and lists off three or four fairly severe injuries. Maybe part of the reason the scratches came was because he was no longer effective pushing through those injuries?

I think this started awhile ago. I mean...during the lockout, he just went and coached a college team while almost everyone else went to leagues that were operating to at least play and stay in game shape.

Good dude, but he's nowhere near his former 50+ point self. Time to move on.

What about St. Louis? They have roughly $26 million in cap space with a goalie situation to figure out (what does Miller do? Can they win with Elliott/Allen?), three RFAs - Berglund, Sobotka, Schwartz, and a few UFAs - Ott, Derek Roy, & Brenden Morrow. If they let a combination of the UFAs go, that opens up some roster spots. They have the cap space, and if Ott is gone they'd also need a 3rd line checking forward. Granted, he'd become their 2nd or 3rd highest paid forward LOL

 

[blahblah]

On the other hand you get fair competition going on and guys trying to earn their roles instead of someone just taking the occasional surf during regular season...

No idea what this has to do with anything you quoted, to be honest.

Scratching a veteran has little to do with "fair competition" and guys "trying to earn their roles". You can have that type of thing shift during the regular season with ice time. Certainly has almost nothing to do with the damage between coach and player. You save scratches for veteran players that you don't care if you (further) damage the relationship with.

That second paragraph was just a random thought of yours and has nothing to do with RJ, so I'll ignore it. It had soccer in it, so that made it even less interesting. Only comment; mostly depth is there to handle injuries and for role players. But generally your top 11 forwards and top 5 d-man will be there for as long as injuries allow. If they are healthy they will start.

 

[Samkow]

So he's pissed about the "healthy scratches" late in the season, but then comes out a day after the season ends and lists off three or four fairly severe injuries. Maybe part of the reason the scratches came was because he was no longer effective pushing through those injuries?

I think this started awhile ago. I mean...during the lockout, he just went and coached a college team while almost everyone else went to leagues that were operating to at least play and stay in game shape.

Good dude, but he's nowhere near his former 50+ point self. Time to move on.

What about St. Louis? They have roughly $26 million in cap space with a goalie situation to figure out (what does Miller do? Can they win with Elliott/Allen?), three RFAs - Berglund, Sobotka, Schwartz, and a few UFAs - Ott, Derek Roy, & Brenden Morrow. If they let a combination of the UFAs go, that opens up some roster spots. They have the cap space, and if Ott is gone they'd also need a 3rd line checking forward. Granted, he'd become their 2nd or 3rd highest paid forward LOL

St. Louis is interesting. The last thing they need is an Umberger but he's a Hitch guy. Wonder if we could get them to bite.

 

[blahblah]

So he's pissed about the "healthy scratches" late in the season, but then comes out a day after the season ends and lists off three or four fairly severe injuries. Maybe part of the reason the scratches came was because he was no longer effective pushing through those injuries?

You have no idea if he's pissed or, if he is, what he's pissed about. The scratches could have simply been the straw. Generally these things don't come out of no where and we know that RJ got a talk after last season about his conditioning (at a minimum).

Being banged up is pretty common. Normally if you are healthy enough to give it a go, the coach puts you in. I certainly didn't notice anything on the ice to suggest he wasn't healthy enough to play. He wasn't up to the level of liability that Wiz was in the playoffs.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

My fear Socks is seeing to many good Blue Jacket players wanting to get out of Dodge... players that go onto winning teams..

John Davidson better be concerned about the perception of Blue Jacket players wanting to jump ship as rats on a sinking ship... just saying.

RJ is not a good player.

Good players like Dubie and Arty and Jack seem pretty committed to this ship.

 

[Samkow]

You have no idea if he's pissed or, if he is, what he's pissed about. The scratches could have simply been the straw. Generally these things don't come out of no where and we know that RJ got a talk after last season about his conditioning (at a minimum).

Being banged up is pretty common. Normally if you are healthy enough to give it a go, the coach puts you in. I certainly didn't notice anything on the ice to suggest he wasn't healthy enough to play. He wasn't up to the level of liability that Wiz was in the playoffs.

Given that the source says he's pissed off about the healthy scratches, he's more likely than not pissed off at about the healthy scratches.

 

[blahblah]

Given that the source says he's pissed off about the healthy scratches, he's more likely than not pissed off at about the healthy scratches.

Yes, yes "reports". There is no chance that this was building over time. I'll have to remember this the next time I read about Dispatch mind control.

Of course he was upset at the time of the scratches, I would think almost all players would be. However, do you think that is the sole reason for the trade request? Do you think he's still "pissed" now?

Carry on. The questions were rhetorical, no reason to bother answering.

 

[Fro]

of course he was mad about being a healthy scratch, the problem is, when he was no longer one, he did nothing to prove he belonged in the lineup...and that lack of compete is a MAJOR problem...

 

[Mayor Bee]

Given that the source says he's pissed off about the healthy scratches, he's more likely than not pissed off at about the healthy scratches.

So was Cam Atkinson, but when he came back in the lineup he played like he was possessed.

 

[Tairy]

From my viewpoint when RJ returned from his scratches he didn't have any jump in his game that you would expect a veteran to have.


The team was clear about needing to speed up their game as individuals and as a team unit. Where I come from speed is created on an individual basis by skating hard and making smart plays. To get faster as a team you make crisp, tape to tape passes. Once u have an uptempo flow to your team game it opens up room for creativity in your transition game. I just don't see RJ as part of a solution to any one of these things. He is not creative, not a smooth transitional player, doesn't have good vision, he's big but not fast, he's big but plays small, ect.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Then why don't you use them as well. Are you really suggesting that Umberger would be the 12th best forward on the Coyotes or the 11th best forward on the Jets? Because it looks like that's what you're doing.

PRetty much this. If you're suggesting players like Jesse Winchester are better players than RJ, then I don't know what to say.

 

[Xoggz22]

I suggested at the time of the scratches that they were intended to be a message that he will be moved in the off season or that he wasn't part of the future. RJ not playing during the lockout seems to have really hurt him as a player. I know that was 2 years ago but he was horrible last year and while he was better this year he didn't seem to have the same drive to help push this team to the next level.

There was a time people thought RJ would be captain of this team (before JJ and Dubi). My how things have changed. I have to believe there will be a market for a veteran 20 goal scorer. I think CBJ retains $1MM in salary to get a decent return. $3.5-$3.6MM cap hit is very reasonable for most teams. Now if he will accept a deal to one of the teams that may need help reaching the cap floor we may not need to retain any salary which would be ideal.

 

[EspenK]

So was Cam Atkinson, but when he came back in the lineup he played like he was possessed.

You mean pissessed?

 

[thebus2288*]

Really....let's use Winnipeg as an example.


There is zero question that Umberger is better than Thorburn, Wright, Halischuk, Peluso, Tangradi, Slater, and Telegin. That in itself would have Umberger ranked 9th. He's not as good as Kane, Wheeler, Little, Ladd, and Scheifele. I'd have him as better than Setoguchi and Jokinen, and probably Frolik. So...he'd be somewhere between the 5th- and 7th-best forward on Winnipeg, which is a team that (although they missed the playoffs) wasn't exactly destroyed this year.

Thorburn, Halischuk, Tangradi and Slater are all guys I'd take over Umberger. Same with Setoguchi, Jokinen and Frolik. Telegin is very young but prolly better than him also.

 

[DarkandStormy]

St. Louis is interesting. The last thing they need is an Umberger but he's a Hitch guy. Wonder if we could get them to bite.

Signed Elliott to a a 3 year deal, Miller to FA. Leaves STL with >$23 million in cap space still. Would they bring in a $4.6 million 3rd liner?

 

[thebus2288*]

He'd be a first liner on Florida and Nashville. A 2nd liner in Phoenix, and a 3rd liner on the rest. You're wrong.

Bjugstad, Upshall, Boyes, Bergenheim, Huberdeau, Fleischman, Barkov, Hayes, Kopecky and Trocheck. Not even counting a couple other young guys. Definitely not top 6.

Hornqvist, Smith, Fisher, Cullen, Wilson, Spaling, Nystrom, Gaustad, Stalberg. Along with Forsberg and Jarnkrok. Again, nowhere near top 6.

Vrbata, Doan, Boedker, Vermette, Ribeiro, Hanzal, Korpikoski. Klinkhammer, Chipchura and Tim Kennedy are 3 more guys who I think would help a team more than Umberger.

Sure, during a year he could find himself in a top 6 role with a team(like us for MOST of the year) but that would not make them a better team. And it doesn't make him a better player. HE HELD THAT TOP LINE(and our team) BACK. I've said it going very far back that many games you could see the discouragement in body language with Foligno and Joey when Umberger would blow chances or just make a terrible decision with the puck.

One thing I try to bring up about Wiz and ice time is proven with Umberger and his numbers this year. The amount of ice time and situational opportunity is the biggest factor behind "skill" when it comes to looking at a players stats. If you guys think he's getting anywhere near 20-25 goals without playing with a guy like Johansen for a full year then you guys need to get of the synthetic **** and go all natural. RJ Umberger is not even a decent player anymore. And there's millions of reasons why I think its ridiculous that some of you seem to feel bad, or have a need to defend him.

 

[Socks]

And there's millions of reasons why I think its ridiculous that some of you seem to feel bad, or have a need to defend him.

And I think it's ridiculous that you hate him so much that you can't see past your hatred to realize that he's still a serviceable player, just maybe not for us. Works both ways.

He still pots you 20ish goals. That's not a bad player. He's an ideal 3rd liner but can play up or down depending on your needs, that's versatile. As is his ability to play Center or Wing. He's overpaid there's no denying it but if he made 1 or 2 mil less we wouldn't be having this discussion.

He no longer fits as a Jacket but he's not going to get run out of the league tail tucked between his legs so get over it.

 

[Doug19]

If he was a versatile 20 goal scorer that could play up and down the lineup as needed, we wouldn't even be having this problem/discussion/blessing right now.

 

[hip check]

And I think it's ridiculous that you hate him so much that you can't see past your hatred to realize that he's still a serviceable player, just maybe not for us. Works both ways.

He still pots you 20ish goals. That's not a bad player. He's an ideal 3rd liner but can play up or down depending on your needs, that's versatile. As is his ability to play Center or Wing. He's overpaid there's no denying it but if he made 1 or 2 mil less we wouldn't be having this discussion.

He no longer fits as a Jacket but he's not going to get run out of the league tail tucked between his legs so get over it.

Its nice when someone posts exactly how I feel.

 

[Socks]

If he was a versatile 20 goal scorer that could play up and down the lineup as needed, we wouldn't even be having this problem/discussion/blessing right now.

There are plenty of 20 goal scorers who don't necessarily fit the Jacket mold. A certain ex-captain for example. He's not a bad player just because you don't like him. I'm tired of people running him down due to hatred. R.J. Umberger is not a bad hockey player. He's just a bad Jacket.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Thorburn, Halischuk, Tangradi and Slater are all guys I'd take over Umberger. Same with Setoguchi, Jokinen and Frolik. Telegin is very young but prolly better than him also.

If we ever both become GM of NHL teams, I'm keeping you on speed dial.