Uh Oh. Matt Murray Leaves Practice LTIR'd (injury discussion)

[34]

I never wish an injury on any athlete, but it is much better with Murray not in the lineup. He is a terrible goaltender. I would leave him out of the lineup all season long! Then buy him out in the summer. The Leafs will be much better off if Murray never plays another game.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I’m curious if Dubas’ backup plan in case of Murray getting injured when he traded for him was always Samsonov. He became available a few hours before the trade, but Dubas and Dorion had been talking well before then. Did he somehow know in advance that Samsonov would be available? Maybe he was waiting to see if Samsonov would be qualified or not before pulling the trigger on the deal. Or, he got lucky that Ilya happened to not get qualified. Though I suppose it’s not out of the realm of possibility that, like Edmonton with Campbell, they were talking before they were allowed to and knew Washington had no plans to bring Ilya back.

Either way, just glad to have a competent goaltender to take the reigns for now.

 

[notbias]

To be fair he's had three lower-body injuries before this.

How long ago? And what were they? Just curious how relevant, I've been told that things that happened on the Pens is too long ago to take into account.

Do you think there was a chance Mrazek was coming back on the Leafs this season? No.

I think it's the exact same with Murray and Ottawa, they wanted to move on at almost any cost.



Injury prone goalie has injury.

People have the pikachu shocked face right now.

Samsonov has been great so it's lessened the blow so at least he got a proper alternative in this case.

Source about any cost. They gave us and Buffalo similar value from the rumours.

Would be weird for a team that isn't ready to win a cup to move a player at "any cost"

 

[Eternal Leaf]

How long ago? And what were they? Just curious how relevant, I've been told that things that happened on the Pens is too long ago to take into account.

October 2022 (Current injury)
April 2021
November 2018
November 2017

This is the timeline for his lower-body injuries. The types of injuries were undisclosed.

Obviously, he has various upper-body injuries sprinkled in between, which are unrelated to this one.

 

[WTFMAN99]

How long ago? And what were they? Just curious how relevant, I've been told that things that happened on the Pens is too long ago to take into account.



Source about any cost. They gave us and Buffalo similar value from the rumours.

Would be weird for a team that isn't ready to win a cup to move a player at "any cost"

25% Murray + 7th overall for 13th overall

We received 25% retained Murray + 3rd + 7th for nothing

We got a bad deal.

 

[deprw]

I’m curious if Dubas’ backup plan in case of Murray getting injured when he traded for him was always Samsonov. He became available a few hours before the trade, but Dubas and Dorion had been talking well before then. Did he somehow know in advance that Samsonov would be available? Maybe he was waiting to see if Samsonov would be qualified or not before pulling the trigger on the deal. Or, he got lucky that Ilya happened to not get qualified. Though I suppose it’s not out of the realm of possibility that, like Edmonton with Campbell, they were talking before they were allowed to and knew Washington had no plans to bring Ilya back.

Either way, just glad to have a competent goaltender to take the reigns for now.

If he had discussed with Capitals I think they might have had an idea of that outcome. They probably have inquired our interest on Samsonov, because whole league knew that we need at least one new goalie.

Samsonov must have been dirt cheap in that point, because they weren't qualifying him.

 

[Niagara Bill]

I think the plan is to roll with Samsonov and Kjallgren and probably win 60% of our games even with average goaltending. We are not going to try to get another goalie (or any player) with the new found (temporary) LTIR. That will be used to bring up Robertson and Gaudette or Steeves when needed, Mete too.

It also allows us to fit in Liljgren for a while. Once Murray comes back, Muzzin or someone else will be hurt for ten games.

Like it or not, get used to this...this is our team and it is unlikely we get reenforcements from the outside.

This roster is statistically projected to be the best in the league and this was not because of Murray. The drop from Murray/Samsonov to Samsonov/Kjallgrenfor ten games is not going to change our foturnes much this year.

As always, let's see what the playoffs bring. I don't see any available goalies that would change our confidence level for the post season... Vasilevsky and Shesterkin are not available.

Wow....rose colored glasses.
Mete, why? Who after 3 games should sit....Likely Sandin. If anyone needs to sit after 3 games they should not be on this team.
If Simmonds plays, why? He got beat out at camp, all players kept were better.
Robertson is explainable as he protected 1 player from waivers.
Simmonds dies not need to be showcased, Mete does not need to be showcased.

There is only 1 player who should sit after 3 games, that is the guy who was saved by Robertson.
Those other moves are bs.

 

[notbias]

25% Murray + 7th overall for 13th overall

We received 25% retained Murray + 3rd + 7th for nothing

We got a bad deal.

Not sure the value is that different.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Not sure the value is that different.

You're stating that you believe you could move up from 13 to 7 in an NHL draft at the cost of a 3rd and 7th...can you substantiate this claim with any transactions of trading into the top 10 for such a low price?

 

[conFABulator]

Wow....rose colored glasses.
Mete, why? Who after 3 games should sit....Likely Sandin. If anyone needs to sit after 3 games they should not be on this team.
If Simmonds plays, why? He got beat out at camp, all players kept were better.
Robertson is explainable as he protected 1 player from waivers.
Simmonds dies not need to be showcased, Mete does not need to be showcased.

There is only 1 player who should sit after 3 games, that is the guy who was saved by Robertson.
Those other moves are bs.

Ummm...you can have a 23 man roster in the league. Where did say on of these guys were playing? Taking anyone out of the lineup?

It's nice to have depth when on the road, at all times really. We go out west after two in TO this week.

Would you prefer we leave Mete on the Marlies and then play shorthanded if a D gets hurt or sick?
It's also good to have a few of the young guys up to give them a taste and get them familiar with the guys and the systems for when we inevitably call them up. Competition also pushes guys. Benn would be a perfect choice but he is hurt right now.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Yes. Imo one of the worst things in sports commentary is the armchair medical analysis. "Injury prone" is one of the most misused phrases on this site.

You are correct that armchair medical analysis is obviously not worth much.

Is "injury prone" misused, or is it just one of those wide-ranging (and/or poorly defined) terms that can mean anything from recurring injuries to wear and tear to purely unlucky?

It's sometimes a hard thing to pin down why some players keep getting injured even if it's different areas, but it certainly seems to be a pattern with some. Joffrey Lupul is a fantastic example.


And to be fair to Murray, groin injuries and goalies are just a thing that happens for obvious reasons, and in his case could easily be due to him not getting much playing time in over the last few years due to his other injuries.


I think we all expected him to spend a significant amount of time on IR during his tenure here, though only getting one game in before his first trip to the medical bay is a bit of a shocker.

 

[rocketman588]

Is this injury related to past ones? Honestly curious, I thought it was mostly concussion-related.

It just seems silly to compare this to his other injuries.

He's had at least 2/3 groin or lower body ones

 

[notbias]

You're stating that you believe you could move up from 13 to 7 in an NHL draft at the cost of a 3rd and 7th...can you substantiate this claim with any transactions of trading into the top 10 for such a low price?

it is all based on tiers, if there is a clear top 10, sure it will be expensive, if there is a top 5 and then 6-15 is mixed, then there is less value.

11th in 2022 was traded for 27, 34, 45.
15th in 2021 was traded for 23, 48, 138

It varies in each draft but from a quick search in the first round, it has ranged from a 3rd for one spot to a 3rd for like 7.

He's had at least 2/3 groin or lower body ones

most are from Pitts, which I've been told constantly is irrelevant to current Murray, although some may think it is concerning, a single groin injury in the last 4 years does not raise red flags for me.

and are they groin injuries? I could only see lower body, I assume the groin but could be a broken foot for all I know.

 

[rocketman588]

it is all based on tiers, if there is a clear top 10, sure it will be expensive, if there is a top 5 and then 6-15 is mixed, then there is less value.

11th in 2022 was traded for 27, 34, 45.
15th in 2021 was traded for 23, 48, 138

It varies in each draft but from a quick search in the first round, it has ranged from a 3rd for one spot to a 3rd for like 7.



most are from Pitts, which I've been told constantly is irrelevant to current Murray, although some may think it is concerning, a single groin injury in the last 4 years does not raise red flags for me.

and are they groin injuries? I could only see lower body, I assume the groin but could be a broken foot for all I know.

April 2021 was groin appearently.

I don't think it was the biggest concern however. I'm more worried that we seem to be doing something weird with off season conditioning.

Shouldn't have this many early season injuries

 

[WTFMAN99]

it is all based on tiers, if there is a clear top 10, sure it will be expensive, if there is a top 5 and then 6-15 is mixed, then there is less value.

11th in 2022 was traded for 27, 34, 45.
15th in 2021 was traded for 23, 48, 138

It varies in each draft but from a quick search in the first round, it has ranged from a 3rd for one spot to a 3rd for like 7.



most are from Pitts, which I've been told constantly is irrelevant to current Murray, although some may think it is concerning, a single groin injury in the last 4 years does not raise red flags for me.

and are they groin injuries? I could only see lower body, I assume the groin but could be a broken foot for all I know.

So the 2 examples are a lot more than a 3rd and a 7th.

 

[egd27]

So when we talk about trading for a player I can just say hey we signed Patrick Kane at the TRADE deadline and everyone will be cool with that?

I'd be fine with it.

But I'm not particularly anal retentive so I can accept the intent of a statement without getting worked up about the semantics.

 

[Stephen]

Not sure what his injury status is, but I wouldn't mind someone like Korpisalo coming in at $1.3 million the rest of the way in a backup role. This is assuming Murray will end up being a permanent resident on Robidas Island.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Ummm...you can have a 23 man roster in the league. Where did say on of these guys were playing? Taking anyone out of the lineup?

It's nice to have depth when on the road, at all times really. We go out west after two in TO this week.

Would you prefer we leave Mete on the Marlies and then play shorthanded if a D gets hurt or sick?
It's also good to have a few of the young guys up to give them a taste and get them familiar with the guys and the systems for when we inevitably call them up. Competition also pushes guys. Benn would be a perfect choice but he is hurt right now.

Yes, leave him in TO, and what young guys? We do not have any rookies except Robertson.
Make up reasons why 7 days ago you kept players that 3 games later need to be replaced by guys you know are not suitable. If you need to push a guy who just made an NHL team, 3 games in, you made the wrong choice. You exposed players to waivers that 7 days later are better than those you kept. BS. So which defenseman sits. Sandin who you had to sign asap, or Holl who got the winning goal.
Only Robertson is a young guy. Typical Keefe here. Got to blame someone for his inability to get his team ready. 7 days after Simmonds is expendable.......good thing he was not claimed.

 

[conFABulator]

Yes, leave him in TO, and what young guys? We do not have any rookies except Robertson.
Make up reasons why 7 days ago you kept players that 3 games later need to be replaced by guys you know are not suitable. If you need to push a guy who just made an NHL team, 3 games in, you made the wrong choice. You exposed players to waivers that 7 days later are better than those you kept. BS. So which defenseman sits. Sandin who you had to sign asap, or Holl who got the winning goal.
Only Robertson is a young guy. Typical Keefe here. Got to blame someone for his inability to get his team ready. 7 days after Simmonds is expendable.......good thing he was not claimed.

Why are we leaving guys at home when we go on a 5 game western road trip? What?

Why not have a 7th dman on a trip that length? Seriously, what is the possible reason this is a good idea?
Same with extra forward. Why not? Also a western road trip, a good opportunity for guys to feel part of the team. They will be later.

Team not ready? They have won two out of three and could have won that first one too. A .667 winning percentage puts you on top of the league most years.

You seriously think it was lucky we didn't lose Simmonds? Seriously? We were never losing Simmonds.

I thought maybe you were going to make hockey points or business of hockey points, I didn't know you were one of those make everything look like it is a problem caused by Dubas' or Keefe. That's tiring.

 

[TorMapleJays]

it was. the leafs had very little options. Fleury refused to go to canada. So we had to choose from backups.

So Leafs ate cap, took murray (which came with picks) and that allows the leafs to hopefully function as a proper 1a/1b pairing... plus sheltering kallgren and woll (especially) because they're not ready for primetime. If murray goes down, then Leafs still have options. .. and that's what this front office does is try to layer that position.

Good goalies do not grow on trees and it seems people keep falsely assuming that there's an ed belfour or curtis joseph just ready and available to save us because there was one before. We got lucky in the early 2000s and since then we've had poor luck with prospects (except rask wtf jfj)

people really need to go look at what goalies were available because it was bad... especially in the price range we needed.

$4.6 million would get you a choice from:

Eric Comrie (unreliable)
Charlie Lindgren (unreliable)
Martin Jones (unreliable)
Ilya Samsonov (we got him)
Jaroslav Halak (old)
Calvin Pickard (unreliable)
Kevin Lankinen
Louis Domingue
Thomas Greiss (old)
------- everyone under this point earning less than a million -------
David Rittich (lol)
pheonix copley
aaron dell
dustin tokarski
cory schneider
zach sawchenko
antoine bibeau
it just gets so much worse from there

pretty much the free agency outside of Campbell (which we couldn't afford) and Kuemper (who we also couldn't afford) was a giant pile of ass. So Leafs just layered, got good potential at risk and decent potential at minimal risk and went from there.

Fleury never said Canada, he said Edmonton. He was open to Toronto.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Please don't label people "armchair medical experts" because they didn't like Dubas' risky trade for Murray.

We knew this was a big risk. His injuries are substantial. A new type of injury doesn't excuse Dubas' risky transaction. The only reason people are not calling for Dubas' dismissal is because Samsungov had a good couple of games.

I for one am not convinced we are out of the woods. What happens if Samsungov gets injured? We are going to be satisfied with Kallgren and a 4th string goalie?

Don't worry. I'm rooting for the good guys. I want this to work out no matter what.

 

[notbias]

So the 2 examples are a lot more than a 3rd and a 7th.

one of those is 16 spots, almost cracking top ten which cost 2 seconds.
one was a 2nd and a 5th which is not far off from a 3rd and a 7th for 8 spots.

not too many trades to choose from.

regardless, it depends on the tiers, if 1-5 is good and 6-15 is lumped in together, then 7-14 is not going to be as pricey as if 1-10 was good and then 11-20 is lumped into together.

I am not saying it is identical value, I am saying it is not very far off in value.

 

[cyris]

Please don't label people "armchair medical experts" because they didn't like Dubas' risky trade for Murray.

We knew this was a big risk. His injuries are substantial. A new type of injury doesn't excuse Dubas' risky transaction. The only reason people are calling for Dubas' dismissal is because Samsungov had a good couple of games.

I for one am not convinced we are out of the woods. What happens if Samsungov gets injured? We are going to be satisfied with Kallgren and a 4th string goalie?

Don't worry. I'm rooting for the good guys. I want this to work out no matter what.

Wouldn’t any team in the league be in trouble if their 1 and 2 goalies got injured?
Campbell and Kemper also have injury history so it isn’t like Murray is the only one we would have been taking a risk on

 

[WTFMAN99]

one of those is 16 spots, almost cracking top ten which cost 2 seconds.
one was a 2nd and a 5th which is not far off from a 3rd and a 7th for 8 spots.

not too many trades to choose from.

regardless, it depends on the tiers, if 1-5 is good and 6-15 is lumped in together, then 7-14 is not going to be as pricey as if 1-10 was good and then 11-20 is lumped into together.

I am not saying it is identical value, I am saying it is not very far off in value.

A 2nd and a 5th or 2 2nds for taking on the cap dump would have been a lot more bearable considering we dumped a 13th overall pick for only 1 year of Marleau

 

[Tak7]

How did this post age for you?

I’m not sure why you quoted me in the first place. I was just replying to someone who was talking about the number of contracts we had limiting our ability to to sign somebody if we need to. And it won’t.

He's out a minimum of 4 weeks - so nothing has changed since I posted it? Unless he's magically returned and no one knows about it?

LOL YES @ the bolded. Absolutely I think the plan has always been this from the get go. If Murray gets injured in any capacity he's going to LTIR to give him as much time as possible to recover and also maximize cap space. I have no doubts that Murray is injured. But do I think a groin tweak was gonna keep him out 10 games/24 days? no. The leafs are being cautious given his injury history. "Hey Matt, take as much time as you need to get better and make sure you're 100% healthy"

EI think of the two goalies Samsonov is the guy they were hoping proves to be the starter. He's 25 years old, just getting into his stride.

So they, a cap strapped team, acquired a guy with 2 years left @ $4.7M, just to make someone else the guy?

Do you not think this stuff through before you hit Post Reply?