Player Discussion Tyler Kleven (D) at 44th Overall (Sens traded up)

[RAFI BOMB]

I am the guy who reads endless reviews of players but rarely spends time watching. From what I can tell about Klevin is that his critics were people that watched about as much video as I did. They watched a couple highlights, saw a few big hits, looked at his size and typecast him.

There were about three or four people who posted very well written reports or reviews on him that praised his shot, skating, lateral mobility and stick handling with and without the puck.

I seem to recall a post on how he got put on deeper and older teams and because of his size and age was used as a defensive first player. Welcomes it and did well even as a younger player which spoke highly of his character, iq and adaptability.

By far and away my favourite draft pick this team has made since... Karlsson.

The typecast thing makes a lot of sense. A common thing I see is that when a d prospect is big, physical and hasn't put up a lot of points that some people assume that the prospect has a low hockey iq, can't skate, is slow and has no puck skills or offensive awareness. Sometimes they even assume that the prospect has no defensive awareness either and that they are just some big, slow goon who might as well not have a stick and is a liability to the team.

It is a lot of assumptions to make and there usually is little to no evidence supporting such assessments. It is kind of like a heuristic to make a quick assessment of a prospect to categorize them as bad and unworthy of a draft pick. The same thing also happens with forward prospects as well. It is almost like if a prospect has the attributes of being big, physical and mean that they MUST also be dumb, have limited to no skill and limited to no skating ability. Like you said it is a way to typecast prospects.

I agree that the critics of Kleven probably didn't watch him play. HockeyTV had the USNTDP games so there was a way to watch his games. But HockeyTV only gives access to leagues such as the USHL, NAHL, BCHL and AJHL. So some of those internet scouts might have decided their money was better spent on the CHL streaming packages. The USNTDP wasn't thought of as holding the same high end talent and depth as some of the recent drafts so some internet scouts might have largely written off the team as not being a major priority for scouting. Early assessments of the top of the draft class didn't have any USNTDP players so it was much less focused on than other leagues. It also didn't seem like it was easy to get access to the 5 nations tournament or the bio-steel all American game so internet scouts and others had to go out of their way to get a good viewing of a player like Kleven.

Even Sanderson was pretty underrated for a good chunk of the season as he started to really climb the rankings after the 5 nations tournament and bio-steel all American game. For Kleven, a lot of internet scouts would be unlikely to ty to focus on him. They might scout a game of USNTDP to watch one of the other players and then only make note of Kleven when he happened to be on the ice. Considering Kleven didn't put up a lot of points, most internet scouts probably weren't paying much attention to him even if they watched USNTDP games. Also Trent Mann mentioned how the USNTDP puts players into narrow roles which can sometimes result in them not showcasing the full extent of their abilities. For Kleven, this means that a scout would need to watch a large amount of games and actually scout him specifically. That would allow them to notice the raw upside and what potential was really there.

 

[bert]

From what I remember a large percentage of internet scouts were very critical of Kleven and dismissive of his skill set leading into the draft. I think that may have lead to a lot of the inaccurate assessments of him as a prospect. It wasn't easy to get viewings of him so a lot of people deferred to the assessments and "expertise" of these internet scouts. Maybe that is why they are internet scouts and not hired by NHL teams. If I remember correctly McKenzie was the only public scout that had Kleven ranked in the early 30s. Many other public rankings had him late 2nd round or into the 3rd round, or worse some had him as a 4th or 5th round pick.

Everything I have seen from Kleven's coaches suggest quite a bit of confidence in his skill set and upside. They had (or have) the opportunity to see him on a daily basis and work with him so if they speak so highly of him then that is a pretty good indication that he has solid upside.

Internet scouts appear to strugle with the value of physicality and size for the most part. Or projecting players forward not basing their draft position on who currently is the best player at that level. Hence why they all love the small skill guys so much. Small skill guys excell in less physical leagues as they get more time and space as well as typically being futher along in their physical development. The bigger guys all take longer to fill out to their peak size, speed and strength. Projecting a small skill player at the next level can be really challenging, first and foremost I think you need to look at their ability to create space for themselves. Because when the big physical mobile D men make it to the next level they close the gaps extremely well. Just like the small skill guys the big players that make it will be the elite of the elite, clearly not all big players and not all small players make it. When evaluating both players you have to think will these players be able to beat the big mobile D man consistently and vise versa will this big mobile D men be able to shut down the most skilled players in the world.

It appears to me Kleven has the skating and range to potentially get to that point, I think he has a long way to go before he gets there so going the college route is the perfect way for him to develop and hit his max peak.

 

[Cosmix]

Are you an expert?

yES.

 

[TheDebater]

The typecast thing makes a lot of sense. A common thing I see is that when a d prospect is big, physical and hasn't put up a lot of points that some people assume that the prospect has a low hockey iq, can't skate, is slow and has no puck skills or offensive awareness. Sometimes they even assume that the prospect has no defensive awareness either and that they are just some big, slow goon who might as well not have a stick and is a liability to the team.

It is a lot of assumptions to make and there usually is little to no evidence supporting such assessments. It is kind of like a heuristic to make a quick assessment of a prospect to categorize them as bad and unworthy of a draft pick. The same thing also happens with forward prospects as well. It is almost like if a prospect has the attributes of being big, physical and mean that they MUST also be dumb, have limited to no skill and limited to no skating ability. Like you said it is a way to typecast prospects.

I agree that the critics of Kleven probably didn't watch him play. HockeyTV had the USNTDP games so there was a way to watch his games. But HockeyTV only gives access to leagues such as the USHL, NAHL, BCHL and AJHL. So some of those internet scouts might have decided their money was better spent on the CHL streaming packages. The USNTDP wasn't thought of as holding the same high end talent and depth as some of the recent drafts so some internet scouts might have largely written off the team as not being a major priority for scouting. Early assessments of the top of the draft class didn't have any USNTDP players so it was much less focused on than other leagues. It also didn't seem like it was easy to get access to the 5 nations tournament or the bio-steel all American game so internet scouts and others had to go out of their way to get a good viewing of a player like Kleven.

Even Sanderson was pretty underrated for a good chunk of the season as he started to really climb the rankings after the 5 nations tournament and bio-steel all American game. For Kleven, a lot of internet scouts would be unlikely to ty to focus on him. They might scout a game of USNTDP to watch one of the other players and then only make note of Kleven when he happened to be on the ice. Considering Kleven didn't put up a lot of points, most internet scouts probably weren't paying much attention to him even if they watched USNTDP games. Also Trent Mann mentioned how the USNTDP puts players into narrow roles which can sometimes result in them not showcasing the full extent of their abilities. For Kleven, this means that a scout would need to watch a large amount of games and actually scout him specifically. That would allow them to notice the raw upside and what potential was really there.

Internet scouts appear to strugle with the value of physicality and size for the most part. Or projecting players forward not basing their draft position on who currently is the best player at that level. Hence why they all love the small skill guys so much. Small skill guys excell in less physical leagues as they get more time and space as well as typically being futher along in their physical development. The bigger guys all take longer to fill out to their peak size, speed and strength. Projecting a small skill player at the next level can be really challenging, first and foremost I think you need to look at their ability to create space for themselves. Because when the big physical mobile D men make it to the next level they close the gaps extremely well. Just like the small skill guys the big players that make it will be the elite of the elite, clearly not all big players and not all small players make it. When evaluating both players you have to think will these players be able to beat the big mobile D man consistently and vise versa will this big mobile D men be able to shut down the most skilled players in the world.

It appears to me Kleven has the skating and range to potentially get to that point, I think he has a long way to go before he gets there so going the college route is the perfect way for him to develop and hit his max peak.

Well said by both of you, but I would like to add another factor that was not addressed: draft position.

The reason people jump to certain conclusions, especially with defenseman, about the "type" of player they are is generally directly related to where a player is projected to go in the draft.

If a 6'4"-6'6" defenseman can be mobile, offensive and play physical, then people are expecting this type of player to be drafted top 10, not in the late 2nd or 3rd round.

If that same player is going in the later rounds, then there has to be "a reason" for it, so just like in the case of Kleven, the easiest assumption to make is he probably lacks offensive skill, but he is a big guy so he will play a typical stay at home defenseman type game.

The same can be said about really good offensive d-men who get drafted in later rounds, they must "suck defensively" otherwise why would they not get picked in the 1st round?

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

I am the guy who reads endless reviews of players but rarely spends time watching. From what I can tell about Klevin is that his critics were people that watched about as much video as I did. They watched a couple highlights, saw a few big hits, looked at his size and typecast him.

There were about three or four people who posted very well written reports or reviews on him that praised his shot, skating, lateral mobility and stick handling with and without the puck.

I seem to recall a post on how he got put on deeper and older teams and because of his size and age was used as a defensive first player. Welcomes it and did well even as a younger player which spoke highly of his character, iq and adaptability.

By far and away my favourite draft pick this team has made since... Karlsson.

Stick handling without the puck would significantly increase entertainment value. You’ve convinced me, I’m excited.

 

[Cosmix]

Stick handling without the puck would significantly increase entertainment value. You’ve convinced me, I’m excited.

There are other uses of the stick when you do not have the puck.

 

[Que]

Stick handling without the puck would significantly increase entertainment value. You’ve convinced me, I’m excited.

I believe I read two or three accounts of him being one of the better players they had seen at that age coral a bouncing puck. That’s what excites me. Makes his shot better by decreasing the release time.

 

[Deku]

The typecast thing makes a lot of sense. A common thing I see is that when a d prospect is big, physical and hasn't put up a lot of points that some people assume that the prospect has a low hockey iq, can't skate, is slow and has no puck skills or offensive awareness. Sometimes they even assume that the prospect has no defensive awareness either and that they are just some big, slow goon who might as well not have a stick and is a liability to the team.

It is a lot of assumptions to make and there usually is little to no evidence supporting such assessments. It is kind of like a heuristic to make a quick assessment of a prospect to categorize them as bad and unworthy of a draft pick. The same thing also happens with forward prospects as well. It is almost like if a prospect has the attributes of being big, physical and mean that they MUST also be dumb, have limited to no skill and limited to no skating ability. Like you said it is a way to typecast prospects.

I agree that the critics of Kleven probably didn't watch him play. HockeyTV had the USNTDP games so there was a way to watch his games. But HockeyTV only gives access to leagues such as the USHL, NAHL, BCHL and AJHL. So some of those internet scouts might have decided their money was better spent on the CHL streaming packages. The USNTDP wasn't thought of as holding the same high end talent and depth as some of the recent drafts so some internet scouts might have largely written off the team as not being a major priority for scouting. Early assessments of the top of the draft class didn't have any USNTDP players so it was much less focused on than other leagues. It also didn't seem like it was easy to get access to the 5 nations tournament or the bio-steel all American game so internet scouts and others had to go out of their way to get a good viewing of a player like Kleven.

Even Sanderson was pretty underrated for a good chunk of the season as he started to really climb the rankings after the 5 nations tournament and bio-steel all American game. For Kleven, a lot of internet scouts would be unlikely to ty to focus on him. They might scout a game of USNTDP to watch one of the other players and then only make note of Kleven when he happened to be on the ice. Considering Kleven didn't put up a lot of points, most internet scouts probably weren't paying much attention to him even if they watched USNTDP games. Also Trent Mann mentioned how the USNTDP puts players into narrow roles which can sometimes result in them not showcasing the full extent of their abilities. For Kleven, this means that a scout would need to watch a large amount of games and actually scout him specifically. That would allow them to notice the raw upside and what potential was really there.

I totally agree with what you've said here. I have to wonder if, after suffering through years of the likes of Jared Cowen and Ben Harpur, some fans may have grown a bias against the physical defensive D types

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Stick handling without the puck would significantly increase entertainment value. You’ve convinced me, I’m excited.

extra practice time.. make that long stretch pass out of your end and practice your stick handling without the puck all the way up the ice. If he incorporates some spinneramas in there .. it would be even more entertaining

 

[JD1]

LOL. I'm not sure how much Button watches SOME of these guys to be honest. But the congratulating on Kleven and declaring the Sens "right" for picking him is pretty hilarious right now. He's played three whole games since being drafted. If he goes on to get destroyed during the WJC will he suddenly be a bust? Of course not.

Time will tell and hopefully he becomes a good player. I definitely still have my doubts but even if he struggles until he's 20 I wouldn't call him a bust or anything. There is a lot of development runway ahead of this player (and all other recent picks).

How much does any single person watch these guys?

First off, Button has a job on TV. That limits his time. And he's on TV in studio all the time, so he's clearly not traveling all over hells half acre to watch prospects play live. So he's watching video, talking to his contacts and compiling a list. He's probably big on big event play because the video quality is better.

Button is fine. Knows his stuff. But he's limited by hours in a day.

Contrast that with Bob. You aren't getting Bob's opinion, you're getting a consolidation of 10 scout's opinions. Completely different

 

[JD1]

From what I remember a large percentage of internet scouts were very critical of Kleven and dismissive of his skill set leading into the draft. I think that may have lead to a lot of the inaccurate assessments of him as a prospect. It wasn't easy to get viewings of him so a lot of people deferred to the assessments and "expertise" of these internet scouts. Maybe that is why they are internet scouts and not hired by NHL teams. If I remember correctly McKenzie was the only public scout that had Kleven ranked in the early 30s. Many other public rankings had him late 2nd round or into the 3rd round, or worse some had him as a 4th or 5th round pick.

Everything I have seen from Kleven's coaches suggest quite a bit of confidence in his skill set and upside. They had (or have) the opportunity to see him on a daily basis and work with him so if they speak so highly of him then that is a pretty good indication that he has solid upside.

Bob McKenzie is not a scout. He's a media personality that consolidates the opinions of real live actual scouts. That's why imo his lists end up closer to reality

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Bob McKenzie is not a scout. He's a media personality that consolidates the opinions of real live actual scouts. That's why imo his lists end up closer to reality

Yeah I know. I was using the term scout within the context of who the average fan looks to for information on draft eligible prospects. At the time of writing that post I didn't have a different way of articulating that point in mind and thought it would be inconsequential within the point I was trying to make.

With that said, your point supports the point I was making. With Mckenzie's list being a consolidation of legitimate professional scouts rankings it is clear that that a meaningful number of those scouts had Kleven ranked high and that their opinion of him was much higher than the vast majority of amateur internet scouts. These kinds of assessments may actually be an indication as to why those internet scouts are still amateur and are not currently employed by NHL teams.

 

[Bileur]

 

[mazmin]

I like Kleven’s game but can also see how he’s an easy draft pick to dislike. The Winnipeg Jets traded up a few years back to take Logan Stanley and the Jets fanatics are still complaining.

I don’t mind these risky picks. If a team wants to add a Colton Parayko type player, he must be acquired through the draft. There’s luck involved with scouting the taller 18 year old dmen as almost all of them are still catching up to their own size and won’t be ready for at least 5 years

 

[Xspyrit]

I like Kleven’s game but can also see how he’s an easy draft pick to dislike. The Winnipeg Jets traded up a few years back to take Logan Stanley and the Jets fanatics are still complaining.

I don’t mind these risky picks. If a team wants to add a Colton Parayko type player, he must be acquired through the draft. There’s luck involved with scouting the taller 18 year old dmen as almost all of them are still catching up to their own size and won’t be ready for at least 5 years

Kleven has much more mobility at the same age though, which is maybe why he has a chance to be effective in the NHL.

Also, major difference between 18th OA and 44th OA. Pressure and expectations are not the same, well at least they shouldn't be!

 

[Icelevel]

An interesting player for sure.
Good mobility for a guy his size while playing physical as well.

Can he get more comfortable and play a consistent 60mins within a few years?

Time will tell. He has some great tools.

Hoping for a solid bottom pairing dude

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I like Kleven’s game but can also see how he’s an easy draft pick to dislike. The Winnipeg Jets traded up a few years back to take Logan Stanley and the Jets fanatics are still complaining.

I don’t mind these risky picks. If a team wants to add a Colton Parayko type player, he must be acquired through the draft. There’s luck involved with scouting the taller 18 year old dmen as almost all of them are still catching up to their own size and won’t be ready for at least 5 years

Agreed. And we're the ones who saw Chara blossom too. this guy obviously is skilled but extremely raw.

Might boom and we get one of the most complete D-corps in the league as a result, or he busts and Faber taken 1 pick after goes on to become a silky smooth top pair d.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Ive really liked what I have seen from Faber. A lot.

Kleven very raw though.

 

[Sweatred]

Kleven is 18 and turn 20 in Jan 2022. He’s eligible in next years tourney.

Hopefully he grows and develops into a stronger roll.

For perspective Pinto is already 20.

 

[NHL Dude 120]

I think he spends another 2 more seasons in the NCAA and then he signs. This is my projected D pairing if things work out by 2025-2026

Chabot-XXXX
Sanderson-JBD
Kleven-Brannstrom

 

[Korpse]

Wasn't very excited about this pick but he had a good year as a freshmen. The mobility is impressive and as the season went on he used it more frequently to escape pressure and navigate high traffic areas. He is still a long ways from being an impact player at the NHL level and his offensive upside is probably limited as a NHL defender but he has an intriguing skill set.



You only catch the tail end of it here but on the third UND goal he gets the puck under pressure and works his way to open ice.

 

[GCK]

One more year at UND playing top 4 minutes and then off to Belleville if he progresses.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Wasn't very excited about this pick but he had a good year as a freshmen. The mobility is impressive and as the season went on he used it more frequently to escape pressure and navigate high traffic areas. He is still a long ways from being an impact player at the NHL level and his offensive upside is probably limited as a NHL defender but he has an intriguing skill set.



You only catch the tail end of it here but on the third UND goal he gets the puck under pressure and works his way to open ice.

His offensive upside is limited for sure but it is for most defensemen, even good NHL ones. My concern is that he is not a good passer of the puck. He seems to have gotten a bit better as the season went along but he still looks like a poor man's Gudbranson at the same age. Apparently he has a good work ethic and he's young and raw, so hopefully he makes progress and could be a good pro.

I think next season we'll see more of what we have in this player.

 

[NHL Dude 120]

One more year at UND playing top 4 minutes and then off to Belleville if he progresses.

I'd actually make that 2 more years. With how raw he is maybe spending a total of 3 years in college and perhaps 1-2 seasons in the AHL.

 

[coladin]

He will be an NHL player. A great pick and a piece of a puzzle that is sorely needed in Ottawa