Two USHL joining the OHL

[MJ5]

It would be a good size but it's not set up for ice. They'd have to put a bunch of money into it to convert it to a hockey rink.

The spot I'd like to see is Traverse City but they'd have to build a new facility and while that area is exploding with people and money, I don't think that would happen especially considering that the Red Wings camp/tourney isn't drawing the other teams anymore.

If there's an expansion in Michigan, I think Muskegon is the only spot unless someone is going to try to do USA Hockey arena again. There just aren't any other arenas big enough besides UofM and MSU and they're not going to partner up with an OHL team.

It's exploding May - Oct, thats for sure. Theres so many snowbirds up that way, too many "summer homes".

I don't think TC has the population in the winter months to support a team. It's part of my territory. Sales in that area Nov-April drop by about 44%. Accounts close, restaurant's close and the ones that stay open struggle. So much seasonal business up that way.

Summer time when business is absolutely booming, the baseball team they have up there averages about 2,500 people a game.

 

[frontsfan2005]

I think you'll always have the Greyhounds at least. There is no solution for them other than playing Michigan teams and there are some great rivalries in place. Adding Muskegon to the existing West Division is about the only thing that would make sense. It's ideal travel for every team.

Youngstown only makes sense in the existing Mid-West division. Maybe you can bump Guelph and Owen Sound over to the Central Division in that scenario.

You would think 2 other teams need to be added, which maybe opens the door for Belleville in the East Division. I'm not sure who the other team could be, maybe Cornwall?

West
Soo
Sarnia
Flint
Saginaw
Windsor
Muskegon

Midwest
Erie
Kitchener
Youngstown
London
Brantford
Niagara

East
Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Belleville
Oshawa
Team X

Central
Sudbury
North Bay
Barrie
Owen Sound
Guelph
Brampton

While the East is still a work in progress, depending on the other new teams, travel for everyone in the other 3 divisions would be improved, save for the West, which remains about the same. Most notably, Niagara and Brantford make a lot more sense.

I don't see the league ever splitting up Guelph and Kitchener - too big of a rivalry as these teams have played in the same division even back in the Guelph Platers days and have had some memorable playoff rounds. Imagine the Storm and Rangers playing twice a year, down from the eight-ten games plus another possible seven playoff games they've played each other for the past 40+ years? That's not happening because Muskegon and Youngstown, two unproven OHL markets, want to join the league.

Same goes for Owen Sound, moving to the East would be a big blow to the team. They've spent the past 35+ years in the Owen Sound market making rivals with teams like the Knights/Rangers/Storm, who all travel well and help fill the Bayshore, only for them to be placed in another conference. Losing those home games and replacing them with Brampton, North Bay and Sudbury would be quite a big loss of revenue.

At this point in time, Guelph/Owen Sound remain in the Midwest and Brantford/Niagara remain in the Central. If Muskegon and Youngstown join the league, followed by Cornwall and possibly Belleville (I think Andlauer eventually moves the Belleville Senators to the Ottawa-Gatineau region):

East - KGN, OTT, OSH, PBO, COR, BEL
Central - BFD, BRAM, SBY, NB, BAR, NIA

Midwest - GUE, KIT, LDN, OS, ERI, YOU
West - MUS, SAG, FLI, WSR, SAR, SSM

 

[Kingpin794]

I don't see the league ever splitting up Guelph and Kitchener - too big of a rivalry as these teams have played in the same division even back in the Guelph Platers days and have had some memorable playoff rounds. Imagine the Storm and Rangers playing twice a year, down from the eight-ten games plus another possible seven playoff games they've played each other for the past 40+ years? That's not happening because Muskegon and Youngstown, two unproven OHL markets, want to join the league.

Same goes for Owen Sound, moving to the East would be a big blow to the team. They've spent the past 35+ years in the Owen Sound market making rivals with teams like the Knights/Rangers/Storm, who all travel well and help fill the Bayshore, only for them to be placed in another conference. Losing those home games and replacing them with Brampton, North Bay and Sudbury would be quite a big loss of revenue.

At this point in time, Guelph/Owen Sound remain in the Midwest and Brantford/Niagara remain in the Central. If Muskegon and Youngstown join the league, followed by Cornwall and possibly Belleville (I think Andlauer eventually moves the Belleville Senators to the Ottawa-Gatineau region):

East - KGN, OTT, OSH, PBO, COR, BEL
Central - BFD, BRAM, SBY, NB, BAR, NIA

Midwest - GUE, KIT, LDN, OS, ERI, YOU
West - MUS, SAG, FLI, WSR, SAR, SSM

Soo Sudbury is a plenty big rivalry that's split by conference. They can keep GUE/KIT and just separate them for division purposes.

 

[frontsfan2005]

Soo Sudbury is a plenty big rivalry that's split by conference. They can keep GUE/KIT and just separate them for division purposes.

Guelph/Kitchener are the two closest teams (about a 25 min drive between the arenas) in the league and, if including the Platers, they've been divisional rivals for over 40 years. It makes absolutely no sense to split them up because Muskegon/Youngstown are wanting in the league. Plus, the proposal was to have them in separate conferences as Guelph moves to the Central Division, so unless if they meet in the finals, no more playoff series for the Storm against the Rangers. That's not happening.

Soo/Sudbury is a big rivalry, but there is a 3.5 hr drive between the cities. Sudbury is closer to NB (1.5 hrs) and Barrie (3 hrs) whereas Soo/Saginaw is about the same as to Sudbury.

 

[Kingpin794]

Guelph/Kitchener are the two closest teams (about a 25 min drive between the arenas) in the league and, if including the Platers, they've been divisional rivals for over 40 years. It makes absolutely no sense to split them up because Muskegon/Youngstown are wanting in the league. Plus, the proposal was to have them in separate conferences as Guelph moves to the Central Division, so unless if they meet in the finals, no more playoff series for the Storm against the Rangers. That's not happening.

Soo/Sudbury is a big rivalry, but there is a 3.5 hr drive between the cities. Sudbury is closer to NB (1.5 hrs) and Barrie (3 hrs) whereas Soo/Saginaw is about the same as to Sudbury.

My point was that the schedule makers can ignore division/conference and let rivals play more games against each other. You could split GUE/KIT and still have them play the same amount of games as normal. Just take some games away from other teams.

Your playoff point is valid though.

 

[Donnie740]

It’s mind boggling why people continue to suggest OHL expansion/relocation within the GTA.

Mississauga, Brampton, Hamilton, Toronto/St Mikes are all proven losers - - why would Burlington or Markham be any different?

 

[Fischhaber]

Guelph/Kitchener are the two closest teams (about a 25 min drive between the arenas) in the league and, if including the Platers, they've been divisional rivals for over 40 years. It makes absolutely no sense to split them up because Muskegon/Youngstown are wanting in the league. Plus, the proposal was to have them in separate conferences as Guelph moves to the Central Division, so unless if they meet in the finals, no more playoff series for the Storm against the Rangers. That's not happening.

Soo/Sudbury is a big rivalry, but there is a 3.5 hr drive between the cities. Sudbury is closer to NB (1.5 hrs) and Barrie (3 hrs) whereas Soo/Saginaw is about the same as to Sudbury.

I think he's talking about the rivalry itself, not the distance between the teams. The team is literally called the Greyhounds because it's faster than a Wolf.

That rivalry has lasted a staggering 105 years and is not affected by being in different conferences. The Sudbury games are always the most heated every single year. The league still supports the rivalries, while making travel easier for every team. It's really the best of both worlds for everyone if this situation comes to pass.

 

[OMG67]

WRT US Expansion, Toledo has the Walleye in the ECHL as an affiliate with Detroit. Is there any chance they could seriously look in that direction? Could an ECHL and OHL team share the same space and be successful?

 

[Otto]

It’s mind boggling why people continue to suggest OHL expansion/relocation within the GTA.

Mississauga, Brampton, Hamilton, Toronto/St Mikes are all proven losers - - why would Burlington or Markham be any different?

Burlington is nothing like Mississauga, Brampton or Toronto. The city is much more easier to move around in and the demographics are much different.

Hamilton biggest issue was arena location, and later arena/city management. Bulldogs would still be there if they were not unceremoniously kicked out.

 

[OMG67]

I think he's talking about the rivalry itself, not the distance between the teams. The team is literally called the Greyhounds because it's faster than a Wolf.

That rivalry has lasted a staggering 105 years and is not affected by being in different conferences. The Sudbury games are always the most heated every single year. The league still supports the rivalries, while making travel easier for every team. It's really the best of both worlds for everyone if this situation comes to pass.

Rivalry games are relatively easy to accommodate. Even with an expansion to 24 teams, it would mean out of conference teams would play each other only once, not even twice in a home and home. So provided the rivals are not out of conference, it should be fine. If it is out of conference, and they want 6 rivalry games, that is five games they need to shave off of inter-conference and inter-division. Sill possible without too much effort but it would be a little more difficult than now.

Out of conference 12 teams x 1 game (12)
Inter-Conference 6 teams x 4 games (24)
Inter-Division 5 teams x 6 games (30 games)
Rivalry games x 2 (2)
Total 68 games
If they expand the schedule to 70 games, they can increase rivalry games by 2 which would make it somewhat easier as well…

 

[Otto]

It makes absolutely no sense to split them up because Muskegon/Youngstown are wanting in the league.

People have been talking about splitting Kitchener/Guelph up long before Muskegon/Youngstown were mentioned. It's got nothing to do with that. It's about trying to make things easier for Erie and getting them in a division with Niagara.

Personally I like the divisions the way they are. Don't change them and add 1 expansion team to each division

 

[EvenSteven]

Well, as a Ranger fan, I was the one to suggested splitting up Kitchener and Guelph. Truth be told, the rivalry is not near as strong or heated as some try to make it out to be. For the most part, games against the Storm are blah. Kitchener has a much stronger rivalry with London. Even had a stronger rivalry with Plymouth when they were in the league more so than Guelph. Not playing them often in the playoffs may have something to do with it.

I might be wrong, but without looking it up, after the 03 playoffs, the Rangers did not play Guelph again in the post season, I don’t believe, til the year Suzuki and Guelph Storm put us out? That’s a lot of years. But you know what? I don’t believe many fans much cared.

The TV and radio guys, at least in Kitchener, try their best to sell it as a fierce and hated rivalry. But it’s not really the case. And then we have the radio guys talking out of the other side of their mouth bemoaning the fact we play them so often. Every time we play them, they bring it up on the radio. “Why do we have to play Guelph so often?” If this was such a heated rivalry, and heated rivalries are usually entertaining, nobody would be complaining about playing them so often. In a lot of ways, the radio on TV guys are the voice of the fans. In this case, the radio guys are echoing the feelings of much of the fanbase.

I don’t think anybody in Kitchener would lose a lot of sleep moving Guelph out of the Rangers division. Team management in both Kitchener and Guelph may want rivalry games against each other. Well for the sake of saving a few dollars on travel, so be it.

Not a real big fan of expansion. It’s hard enough now getting to see all the teams. But for kicks, here’s my suggestion for a 24 team OHL. For this exercise, I’ve added teams in Belleville, Cornwall, Muskegon, and Youngstown. I’ve also done a significant realignment.

Western Conference

West Division
Soo.
Saginaw
Flint
Sarnia
Windsor
Muskegon*

South Division
Brantford
Erie
Kitchener
London
Niagara
Youngstown*

Eastern Conference
East Division
Belleville*
Cornwall*
Kingston
Oshawa
Ottawa
Peterboro

North Division
Barrie
Brampton
Guelph
North Bay
Owen Sound
Sudbury

– Each team needs an outpost team or two to keep things fair throughout the league. So in other words, creating a North division that includes all the northern teams and then have a west or Midwest division where there is a close cluster of teams is not really fair. And it seems that the league has felt this way now for some time.

– I am a little intrigued about the involvement of Gatineau. But I think it would be a political mess trying to acquire a team from the Q. For years, the Q has been trying to put a team in Cornwall. The OHL has always stood in their way. No doubt, the Q would stand in the way the OHL of putting a team in Gatineau. Also, how would it work regarding boundaries for players? If I remember correctly, back in the day, when Cornwall was a part of the Q, players in that area were not eligible for the OHL draft. They were Q property. Would the Q want to lose Gatineau as a member team and the players in that region to the OHL? I think not.

– The biggest eye-opener in my proposed realignment it’s splitting up Kitchener and Guelph, not only in different divisions, but in different conferences. Hey, these teams are not a package deal. In order to get the south teams in the same division, and Brantford to the west, sacrifices have to be made. Guelph is the easternmost city in the current Midwest division. So I moved them. Ditto Owen Sound moving into the eastern conference. Perhaps Guelph and Owen Sound can have rivalry games against Kitchener.

-Due to the recent instability of the Brampton franchise, if that team is on the move again, Burlington might be a landing spot. Farwell was talking about Burlington on The OHL Podcast as a possible expansion city.

– I put Erie and Niagara in the same division like they should be. I’ve taken Brantford out of the Eastern conference and put them with closer rivals in London, Kitchener and Niagara. I dropped the new teams into their obvious divisions. Each division has an outpost city or cities.

I think you'll always have the Greyhounds at least. There is no solution for them other than playing Michigan teams and there are some great rivalries in place. Adding Muskegon to the existing West Division is about the only thing that would make sense. It's ideal travel for every team.

Youngstown only makes sense in the existing Mid-West division. Maybe you can bump Guelph and Owen Sound over to the Central Division in that scenario.

You would think 2 other teams need to be added, which maybe opens the door for Belleville in the East Division. I'm not sure who the other team could be, maybe Cornwall?

West
Soo
Sarnia
Flint
Saginaw
Windsor
Muskegon

Midwest
Erie
Kitchener
Youngstown
London
Brantford
Niagara

East
Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Belleville
Oshawa
Team X

Central
Sudbury
North Bay
Barrie
Owen Sound
Guelph
Brampton

While the East is still a work in progress, depending on the other new teams, travel for everyone in the other 3 divisions would be improved, save for the West, which remains about the same. Most notably, Niagara and Brantford make a lot more sense.

 

[donjohnson]

WRT US Expansion, Toledo has the Walleye in the ECHL as an affiliate with Detroit. Is there any chance they could seriously look in that direction? Could an ECHL and OHL team share the same space and be successful?

I don't think so... Fans in those cities are already loyal to the local team and hockey is already a niche sport in the US. It's why as big as the Detroit burbs are, they can't support a team because they are all Red Wing fans and that's the game they're going to go to.

The Spirit and the single A baseball loons work in Saginaw because it's an hour and a half to get to Detroit and people can get their fix without driving. Flint is right on the border of "too close". Grand Rapids supports hockey but they already have the griffins.

Lansing would be a good spot for an ohl team but they have Michigan State hockey which has a big following.

Muskegon is really the only possibility in Michigan and that's only because they already have a fanbase (not sure how big though) but I don't know how the economics of OHL vs USHL compare.

 

[SSMHoundsFan]

I'm going to throw a wrench into the mix here, does Muskegon and Youngstown even support their current teams? Why would they suddenly support them more because they join the OHL?

Have a look at the attendance at Muskegon and Youngstown home games so far this season:

https://ushl.com/ht/#/schedule

For sake of argument, the Covelli Center in Youngstown has 5900 seat capacity and they have a difficult time cracking 1000 people attending a although one game they had 1500 at so far.

The stats so far for Muskegon home games aren't as plentiful this season but looking back at last season, for a 4000 seat arena they barely managed to fill 50% of the seats most nights

I'd be curious to know how fans in these cities feel about this possible move

 

[Kingpin794]

I'm going to throw a wrench into the mix here, does Muskegon and Youngstown even support their current teams? Why would they suddenly support them more because they join the OHL?

Have a look at the attendance at Muskegon and Youngstown home games so far this season:

https://ushl.com/ht/#/schedule

For sake of argument, the Covelli Center in Youngstown has 5900 seat capacity and they have a difficult time cracking 1000 people attending a although one game they had 1500 at so far.

The stats so far for Muskegon home games aren't as plentiful this season but looking back at last season, for a 4000 seat arena they barely managed to fill 50% of the seats most nights

I'd be curious to know how fans in these cities feel about this possible move

No one went to Warriors games in Flint. God knows there were maybe 200 people on the stands for whatever Saginaw was putting out in the 90’s before it folded. The OHL is a vastly better product than the USHL. No one cares about the USHL. It’s get no attention. It’s just a holding space for the NCAA. It might not be immediate but people will come out for the OHL. Especially since Muskegon will have some MI teams to play now. Before there was what, the NTDP which isn’t really a MI team. So then Chicago would have been the nearest team. The instate rivalry will get people involved. Youngstown will have Erie.

 

[donjohnson]

I'm going to throw a wrench into the mix here, does Muskegon and Youngstown even support their current teams? Why would they suddenly support them more because they join the OHL?

Have a look at the attendance at Muskegon and Youngstown home games so far this season:

https://ushl.com/ht/#/schedule

For sake of argument, the Covelli Center in Youngstown has 5900 seat capacity and they have a difficult time cracking 1000 people attending a although one game they had 1500 at so far.

The stats so far for Muskegon home games aren't as plentiful this season but looking back at last season, for a 4000 seat arena they barely managed to fill 50% of the seats most nights

I'd be curious to know how fans in these cities feel about this possible move

The more I look into Muskegon, the less I think the OHL would take them on as a franchise...these are good questions and IMO it starts with ownership. The previous owner of the Lumberjacks is Dan Israel who made a bunch of money bid-rigging asphalt projects in SE Michigan. He's been federally charged on it. The current owner is Peter Herms who runs a Utility Construction Company in New Jersey. He was a former player and I'm sure he's a good businessman but he's hardly a pillar of the community.

The reason hockey took off in Saginaw was that Dick Garber was intimately connected with the business community and the corporate sponsors are the support that the team needs to get through the tough years. If you've been to the Dow, you know that there's not much in the arena that doesn't have a sponsor on it and the ribbon-board is now another place to advertise.

How about it just as a population center??? Muskegon County is home to 175K people...would they draw from Grand Haven at all? I doubt it. Meanwhile, when Saginaw was added, we had Bay and Midland counties to support as well which puts us over 400K people to draw from.

Expansion and the USHL is a really interesting discussion but I don't think Muskegon is a viable choice for the OHL.

 

[Kingpin794]

If we're going to include ALL of Bay, Saginaw, and Midland county, we can do the same for Ottawa, Muskegon and Kent. That would be closer to a million people to draw from.

 

[moose311]

I might be wrong, but without looking it up, after the 03 playoffs, the Rangers did not play Guelph again in the post season, I don’t believe, til the year Suzuki and Guelph Storm put us out? That’s a lot of years. But you know what? I don’t believe many fans much cared.

Kitchener defeated Guelph 4-1 in the 2013 first round, and 4-2 in the 2018 first round.

 

[EvenSteven]

Kitchener defeated Guelph 4-1 in the 2013 first round, and 4-2 in the 2018 first round.

Should have looked it up. Forgot about 2013.

 

[donjohnson]

If we're going to include ALL of Bay, Saginaw, and Midland county, we can do the same for Ottawa, Muskegon and Kent. That would be closer to a million people to draw from.

Those are counties who already have high-level AHL hockey in town with the Grand Rapids Griffins and the Griffins are already marketing to those people to come downtown.

Even the outskirts of Bay and Midland and Saginaw Counties are all pretty much within a 30min drive to the Dow and there are no other hockey options for those fans.

 

[Kingpin794]

Hamilton will be in AHL

Yeah the consensus is that they'll take the Sens affiliate once their current agreement runs out in Belleville in 2027.

 

[OMG67]

Those are counties who already have high-level AHL hockey in town with the Grand Rapids Griffins and the Griffins are already marketing to those people to come downtown.

Even the outskirts of Bay and Midland and Saginaw Counties are all pretty much within a 30min drive to the Dow and there are no other hockey options for those fans.

I think the OHL needs a goal first. Then they look at adding teams and where they would need to be added.

If there is a goal to expand, then how many teams does the OHL want to take on and how quickly? Can the OHL add four teams and go to 24 all in one seaosn? Will it need to be adding one at a time and see how it goes? I am not sure what the goal is and if the goal is to expand, I am not sure how fast the league would want to do it.

Assuming the goal is to expand and that number is 24 (which does make sense to me), then geography should play a part but not the primary part. The primary decision should be market viability and that includes demonstrated community support, quality of the infrastructure and capability of the ownership group. THEN it comes down to geography.

So, from my perspective, I think we may be looking at this the wrong way. Two USHL teams approached th eOHL. This may spur internal conversations regarding expansion and/or relocation but I am pretty sure the league would look at this at the Macro level meaning they would include all options, not just the two from the USHL.

There is also the elephant int he room regarding the Steelheads. They have a temporary home where they don’t pay to lease the space which makes the team at least somewhat viable in the short term but that isn’t good for the league. Should the league prioritize finding a location for the Steeleheads or should they focus on expansion? That is a really big question from my perspective.

Yeah the consensus is that they'll take the Sens affiliate once their current agreement runs out in Belleville in 2027.

And this is great for the OHL because Belleville then becomes the prime relocation town for the Steelheads. At least then the OHL can sit with 20 relatively solid franchises and can look more seriously at expansion.

 

[frontsfan67]

Let’s say Cornwall is team X in the east (I think they should get a team after Belleville) who does Brampton turn into cause I don’t see them lasting more than 3-4 years at best

I think Brampton turns into Cornwall (joins east division) and Brantford joins central

Bring back the Royals too

 

[OMG67]

I think Brampton turns into Cornwall (joins east division) and Brantford joins central

Bring back the Royals too

I really like th idea of Cornwall but if they do it, they will need to do an Owen Sound style renovation. If they can blow out the south side stands and update that side with some private boxes and VIP seating etc, I think the remainder of the rink would be just fine. they do have some space on the south side. The existing stands are like Belleville where each of the sets of stands (N-S-E-W) are independent. You can’t walk from one to the other in the aisles. This may make it easier for architecture and construction since it looks like each can stand alone independently with its own supporting structure.

The issue in Cornwall has always been economic. They’ve had a hard time with using public funds for community projects. I think this has gotten batter in recent years but anyone coming in would need to support it independently or garner funds from the Province to cover a good portion of it.

 

[ScoutLife4]

I really like th idea of Cornwall but if they do it, they will need to do an Owen Sound style renovation. If they can blow out the south side stands and update that side with some private boxes and VIP seating etc, I think the remainder of the rink would be just fine. they do have some space on the south side. The existing stands are like Belleville where each of the sets of stands (N-S-E-W) are independent. You can’t walk from one to the other in the aisles. This may make it easier for architecture and construction since it looks like each can stand alone independently with its own supporting structure.

The issue in Cornwall has always been economic. They’ve had a hard time with using public funds for community projects. I think this has gotten batter in recent years but anyone coming in would need to support it independently or garner funds from the Province to cover a good portion of it.

I'd have to say Belleville and Cornwall would both be top choices.
That Cornwall arena it likely looking at 50-100M to make it a proper entertainment venue for Hockey.
I really don't see OHL entertaining anything there until some type of construction plan is approved / going forward.

Belleville by most indications will have a vacant arena after the 2027 season that is perfect for OHL.
Realistically you are likely only seeing around 2000-2500 attendance out of either of those cities.