Turcotte- time to worry?

[Raccoon Jesus]

The vets are by design. You have to have competition and you have to have guys who set examples of being a pro to the younger guys. It makes them earn it. If they wanted these kids to just play 20+ minutes a night they either wouldn't sign the Tynan's or they'd simple scratch them.

I agree with that. A Tynan is good--an AHL MVP, been around the block, can definitely help.

The problem isn't Tynan in isolation--it's Tynan plus the rest of the OVERdone signings being guys spilling down, like Tkachev, Frk, and even guys like JAD being smushed down by roster cloggers like AA. PP1 shouldn't have zero bluechippers, to be blunt to the thread. It just goes back to pisspoor asset mgmt by Blake and co--they OVERcreated redundant competition at forward, yet look how thin the D is in both LA and ONT (this year). And thus the best we can do with our top prospects is AHL middle six or NHL bottom line.

 

[Statto]

I have to agree about the excessive ’depth’ I’m the system. From day one the signing of AA hasn’t sat well with me and I agree completely about how they are using players in the AHL. I’m very worried about losing Wrobo and whilst his own health situation is obviously more important losing his influence on player development is definitely a major issue.

However I’m not yet calling for anyones head because whilst I have concerns it may just be that we cannot see the plan. They are having some success with bringing guys through with Grunström, Kupari, Kalyev and now Durzi. The big question will be what they do with Byfield and Turcotte because if they mess up those guys both Blake and Luc will be done. Vilardi they will get a pass on due to his back and I’m not yet worried about QB because they seemed to be getting that right before his broken ankle. However crunch time is fast approaching.

There really needs to be a clear plan appearing by the TDL to get Turcotte and QB into the NHL. They need to make space and after the TDL I want AA and Lizotte (his recent play has been good but if he’s here long term we are in trouble) gone and they need to start getting guys in NHL games with that space. In a weird way COVID may help with that but we we will see.

 

[apocalypse]

I have to agree about the excessive ’depth’ I’m the system. From day one the signing of AA hasn’t sat well with me and I agree completely about how they are using players in the AHL. I’m very worried about losing Wrobo and whilst his own health situation is obviously more important losing his influence on player development is definitely a major issue.

However I’m not yet calling for anyones head because whilst I have concerns it may just be that we cannot see the plan. They are having some success with bringing guys through with Grunström, Kupari, Kalyev and now Durzi. The big question will be what they do with Byfield and Turcotte because if they mess up those guys both Blake and Luc will be done. Vilardi they will get a pass on due to his back and I’m not yet worried about QB because they seemed to be getting that right before his broken ankle. However crunch time is fast approaching.

There really needs to be a clear plan appearing by the TDL to get Turcotte and QB into the NHL. They need to make space and after the TDL I want AA and Lizotte (his recent play has been good but if he’s here long term we are in trouble) gone and they need to start getting guys in NHL games with that space. In a weird way COVID may help with that but we we will see.

i think you give QB some time to put it all together. And why do you not want Lizzotte in the lineup? Guy has been good for us, can cycle, aggressive, does it all.

 

[Schrute farms]

I personally don't see the need to rush these guys up and into NHL. Maybe i'm a bit more old school, but i prefer to let them continue to grow their bodies into full fledged men, adding NHL muscle, develop their games, learn the NHL way, etc. Then be ready to step in and make a difference at 22-24. For elite guys like Byfield, Turc, AK, Clarke, etc. -- a year or more earlier if they truly are ready.

I do think Turc should get a cup of tea time at some point this season. Then have a real chance of making them next year at 21 -- whether than be out of training camp or sometime during the year. With him being solidly entrenched as a top 9 guy Day 1 full season by the 2023-2024 season when he's 22.

 

[Statto]

i think you give QB some time to put it all together. And why do you not want Lizzotte in the lineup? Guy has been good for us, can cycle, aggressive, does it all.

It’s nothing against Lizotte but IMO we need to see him surpassed because I don’t think he plays on a contender. As such he will be blocking others if we keep him in place. He will only be there is the likes of JAD and Akil Thomas fall short and because of that I’d move him out now to give the roster flexibility to give the likes of Turcotte their cup of coffee.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I personally don't see the need to rush these guys up and into NHL. Maybe i'm a bit more old school, but i prefer to let them continue to grow their bodies into full fledged men, adding NHL muscle, develop their games, learn the NHL way, etc. Then be ready to step in and make a difference at 22-24. For elite guys like Byfield, Turc, AK, Clarke, etc. -- a year or more earlier if they truly are ready.

I do think Turc should get a cup of tea time at some point this season. Then have a real chance of making them next year at 21 -- whether than be out of training camp or sometime during the year. With him being solidly entrenched as a top 9 guy Day 1 full season by the 2023-2024 season when he's 22.

Yeah I'm not going to go down the list because it's a similar thought, but with Turcotte in particular, I'm not saying he should be full-time right now, only that I think he can...but mostly that it's just absolutely insane that he hasn't even gotten a handful of games for a taste and some homework.

 

[YAYSAY]

It’s nothing against Lizotte but IMO we need to see him surpassed because I don’t think he plays on a contender. As such he will be blocking others if we keep him in place. He will only be there is the likes of JAD and Akil Thomas fall short and because of that I’d move him out now to give the roster flexibility to give the likes of Turcotte their cup of coffee.

I don't really think Lizotte is a problem, Turc and Byfield aren't projected to be 4C anyway so JAD is his only real competition at the moment. He's been our best 4C in a long time. The way he plays seems like he'd work well in the playoffs too. I wouldn't be surprised if he got shipped out but wouldn't hate if they keep him around. Either way, he's not losing his spot anytime soon.

 

[SmytheKing]

Honestly, at this point, I would like him to be included in a trade. A couple of reasons why:

1. Durability questions. I think his "window of effectiveness" will be very short. 3-5 years at the most. He'll be solid outside of that, but the drop will be a lot from his peak. Similar to Richards really.
2. Numbers. He's at this point stuck as the #4 center (in skill if not role/depth). You have to move him to winger if you want to slot him in for significant time in the NHL over the next three years.
3. Value. He still holds value as a prospect that could return something else the Kings could use and that alone is worth the consideration. If either of the above two come to fruition, his value is tremendously diminished. If he's not getting a regular shift in the NHL by next year, he's going to ask to be traded for opportunity too which will also reduce his value.

It's just sad that, as others have mentioned throughout the season, the Kings just don't seem to know what to do with the assets they've acquired from being so bad. Hoarding prospects like a dragon hoards gold isn't a strategy.

 

[Kurrilino]

It's just sad that, as others have mentioned throughout the season, the Kings just don't seem to know what to do with the assets they've acquired from being so bad. Hoarding prospects like a dragon hoards gold isn't a strategy.

I would keep the prospects far away from our train wreck vets until they are gone.
Hoarding them until this point is a valid strategy.
Let them grow together and build chemistry, play them to their strength and see what happens.
If they don't cut it when they are 24, then we can worry.

I really don't want any of our youngsters copying anyhing of the lifeless body that Kopitar is.
They need to grow with emotions and the will to win. This is what farm teams are for.

And yeah, stop waiving them for absolutely no reason
If any, take one of our center prospects and trade for a scoring winger prospect

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I'm worried too...I've it a million times where the player thinks he's ready for the next step and then struggles or falls on their asses...Turcotte should have stayed in college for 2 more seasons...I can say that of most of LA prospects...Madden needed to put on more mass and strength,2 more years of college would done a World of good. 2 more for Fagemo in Sweden, playing a ton and coming over scoring 30 plus goals...2 more for Kupari to play first line centre in Finland and not Ontario...Byfield needs to get his head outta his ass and not think of himself as the next great one! At this rate he'll be Lucky to the 3rd line centre on the Kings...as for Vilardi...well shite he's not a 1st or 2nd line centre but maybe a 3rd line RWinger if he can develop some strength...I can go on and on and on

You can definitely go on and on......probably still wouldn't make sense....but you could.

 

[Kurrilino]

The problem isn't Tynan in isolation--it's Tynan plus the rest of the OVERdone signings being guys spilling down, like Tkachev, Frk, and even guys like JAD being smushed down by roster cloggers like AA. PP1 shouldn't have zero bluechippers, to be blunt to the thread. It just goes back to pisspoor asset mgmt by Blake and co--they OVERcreated redundant competition at forward, yet look how thin the D is in both LA and ONT (this year). And thus the best we can do with our top prospects is AHL middle six or NHL bottom line.

I'm not sure i would agree at all with that statement.

We are 6th in the NHL in Goals Against and we are 10th in the AHL in Goals against.
How this is considered middle six or bottom line is far beyond me.

The difference between Ontario and L.A. is that the Ontario system encourages goal scoring.
Just by looking at the AHL standing, we can see what needs to be adjusted.
The problem is that our vet group grew up under Murray and Sutter's dinosaur hockey that kills any creativity
or out of the box thinking. Out of the box thinking was also punished hard and it shows badly.

If we really want to win something, we need a young ambitious coaching staff with a fresh approach to the new NHL.
The talent to play hockey with speed and creativity is there, the system and coaching is not.
How can we even point fingers at Kupari and Kaliev's progress, when there day by day job is to be pinned against a the boards?
Nobody would score from there. Entering the o-zone already at the boards needs to stop before everything else

 

[AbsentMojo]

I personally don't see the need to rush these guys up and into NHL. Maybe i'm a bit more old school, but i prefer to let them continue to grow their bodies into full fledged men, adding NHL muscle, develop their games, learn the NHL way, etc. Then be ready to step in and make a difference at 22-24. For elite guys like Byfield, Turc, AK, Clarke, etc. -- a year or more earlier if they truly are ready.

I do think Turc should get a cup of tea time at some point this season. Then have a real chance of making them next year at 21 -- whether than be out of training camp or sometime during the year. With him being solidly entrenched as a top 9 guy Day 1 full season by the 2023-2024 season when he's 22.

I agree re not rushing guys.. They can be on the big club and not be rushed if the team is willing to commit to their development and not relegate them to the 4th line. In most cases better to let them marinate in the AHL. Also setting expectations is important.. Look at Draisaitl.. He was called up when he was 19 + a few months mid-season.. and had 9 pts in 37 games. The next year he had very respectable .75 pts per game at age 20. QB is 18 - but he looks ready to give it a go in the NHL based on the pre-season. If he stumbles it shouldnt be a concern. You can see already in his games back in Ont his speed an agility stand out against the rest of the players..yet he hasnt scored. Id be happy with him just getting reps even if he doesnt put up a lot of points just to get familiar with the system. https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/71913/leon-draisaitl

 

[FSL KINGS]

Like that the Kings have the depth to be able to allow Turcotte time to develop at the AHL level without rushing him like Caufield.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

It's the same old, same old,

If you bring them up and they fail, they are damaged goods, you rushed them, ruined them,

If you let them stay down, they are damaged goods, you didn't give them a shot, it's no good etc,

It's bullshit either way, Lafrenierre, Kakko, both looked like dogshit rushed up etc,

Everyone is bitching that LA can't develop players, yet guys like Durzi, Bjornfoot are thriving, Kaliyev and Kupari are learning the ropes, Roy, Walker, Iafallo, Mike Andersson, Kempe, Lizotte, those are all guys that are on the Kings that they developed, then taking projects like Lemieux, Lias Andersson, those are still up in the air etc, you can even make an argument for Grundstrom, etc.

Seems to me they develop players fine, fans are just impatient as hell.

 

[kingsboy11]

It's the same old, same old,

If you bring them up and they fail, they are damaged goods, you rushed them, ruined them,

If you let them stay down, they are damaged goods, you didn't give them a shot, it's no good etc,

It's bullshit either way, Lafrenierre, Kakko, both looked like dogshit rushed up etc,

Everyone is bitching that LA can't develop players, yet guys like Durzi, Bjornfoot are thriving, Kaliyev and Kupari are learning the ropes, Roy, Walker, Iafallo, Mike Andersson, Kempe, Lizotte, those are all guys that are on the Kings that they developed, then taking projects like Lemieux, Lias Andersson, those are still up in the air etc, you can even make an argument for Grundstrom, etc.

Seems to me they develop players fine, fans are just impatient as hell.

Agreed for the most part, but I do think there's some reason to worry. I don't doubt the Kings ability to draft and develop NHL players, I think our drafting record is better than most teams into making NHL players. But if you look over the course of the past 14-15 years since Lombardi took over how many top 6 forwards have we developed? Toffoli, Kempe and...? I'm not counting Iafallo/Lizotte as they got most of their development in college and spent little to no time in the AHL. Now to be fair when we were winning cups we didn't have the higher end draft picks, but the track record isn't quite there yet.

I'm not as concerned as others are when it comes to the prospects as I think the grouping of high end talent with character will make most of these guys impact NHL players, but we need guys like Byfield, Kaliyev, Turcotte and Vilardi to hit eventually. I know this forum loves discussing what the Ducks are doing, but if you look at Troy Terry it took him several seasons going up to the NHL level where he was struggling to produce and now its paying off at age 24. Development isn't linear and I think we all need to keep that in mind.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Agreed for the most part, but I do think there's some reason to worry. I don't doubt the Kings ability to draft and develop NHL players, I think our drafting record is better than most teams into making NHL players. But if you look over the course of the past 14-15 years since Lombardi took over how many top 6 forwards have we developed? Toffoli, Kempe and...? I'm not counting Iafallo/Lizotte as they got most of their development in college and spent little to no time in the AHL. Now to be fair when we were winning cups we didn't have the higher end draft picks, but the track record isn't quite there yet.

I'm not as concerned as others are when it comes to the prospects as I think the grouping of high end talent with character will make most of these guys impact NHL players, but we need guys like Byfield, Kaliyev, Turcotte and Vilardi to hit eventually. I know this forum loves discussing what the Ducks are doing, but if you look at Troy Terry it took him several seasons going up to the NHL level where he was struggling to produce and now its paying off at age 24. Development isn't linear and I think we all need to keep that in mind.

Kings really have never had a chance to develop top six offensive talent, going back a decade, 2012

Pearson at 30, after that
2013 - no first
2014 - 29th OA - Kempe, finally developing into a top six
2015 - No first
2016 - No first
2017 - Vilardi - Jury is still out
2018 - Kupari - at 20OA, jury still out
2019 - Turcotte
2020 - Byfield

You need some 1sts to develop top six talent, can you get them in the 2nd, sure....absolutely, but lets look at 2012 - 2016 2nd rounders who are producing top six, I do those years due to development, not really fair to judge 2018 2nds if we cant even judge the 1sts,

2012 - Zero
2013 - Tyler Bertuzzi
2014 - Barbashev (just got there this season), Dvorak? Maybe
2015 - Aho, Hintz
2016 - Kyrou, Debrincat and Kyrou is just hitting his stride 5 years later,

So 5 years, 30 picks, 150 players and 7 players out of the 150 developed into top six,

Yea, no where close to being worried about player development.

 

[HookKing]

Kings really have never had a chance to develop top six offensive talent, going back a decade, 2012

Pearson at 30, after that
2013 - no first
2014 - 29th OA - Kempe, finally developing into a top six
2015 - No first
2016 - No first
2017 - Vilardi - Jury is still out
2018 - Kupari - at 20OA, jury still out
2019 - Turcotte
2020 - Byfield

You need some 1sts to develop top six talent, can you get them in the 2nd, sure....absolutely, but lets look at 2012 - 2016 2nd rounders who are producing top six, I do those years due to development, not really fair to judge 2018 2nds if we cant even judge the 1sts,

2012 - Zero
2013 - Tyler Bertuzzi
2014 - Barbashev (just got there this season), Dvorak? Maybe
2015 - Aho, Hintz
2016 - Kyrou, Debrincat and Kyrou is just hitting his stride 5 years later,

So 5 years, 30 picks, 150 players and 7 players out of the 150 developed into top six,

Yea, no where close to being worried about player development.

Its understandable when you consider the Kings have drafted just 1 winger in the first round since Lauri Tukonen in 2004. That winger was Tanner Pearson, the last pick of the first round in 2012. I'm shocked, shocked that the Kings never seem to have any snipers coming up other than random hits from later rounds (Toffoli/Kaliyev). Converting (pass first) centers to wingers isn't the answer. You can only develop what you have to work with.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Its understandable when you consider the Kings have drafted just 1 winger in the first round since Lauri Tukonen in 2004. That winger was Tanner Pearson, the last pick of the first round in 2012. I'm shocked, shocked that the Kings never seem to have any snipers coming up other than random hits from later rounds (Toffoli/Kaliyev). Converting (pass first) centers to wingers isn't the answer. You can only develop what you have to work with.

Sky is falling shocked because you know, development.

 

[apadilla]

Yes, if you are hoping or expecting Turcotte to become a 1st or 2nd line productive center, it is time to worry. He is in his 3rd season since his draft, and since then hasn't shown a scoring touch that is expected of a 5th overall pick.

But IMO, if you'd be content with Trevor Lewis part 2, it is not yet time to worry. And I'm not knocking Trevor. Hell, he was also a 1st rounder (believe 17th OA), took a few years after his draft year to make the NHL, and played a superb role as a gritty 4th line center + penalty killer, who helped the Kings win 2 Stanley Cups. I'd be okay or content with Turcotte becoming TL part 2, if it includes a Cup or two.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Kings really have never had a chance to develop top six offensive talent, going back a decade, 2012

Pearson at 30, after that
2013 - no first
2014 - 29th OA - Kempe, finally developing into a top six
2015 - No first
2016 - No first
2017 - Vilardi - Jury is still out
2018 - Kupari - at 20OA, jury still out
2019 - Turcotte
2020 - Byfield

You need some 1sts to develop top six talent, can you get them in the 2nd, sure....absolutely, but lets look at 2012 - 2016 2nd rounders who are producing top six, I do those years due to development, not really fair to judge 2018 2nds if we cant even judge the 1sts,

2012 - Zero
2013 - Tyler Bertuzzi
2014 - Barbashev (just got there this season), Dvorak? Maybe
2015 - Aho, Hintz
2016 - Kyrou, Debrincat and Kyrou is just hitting his stride 5 years later,

So 5 years, 30 picks, 150 players and 7 players out of the 150 developed into top six,

Yea, no where close to being worried about player development.

Its understandable when you consider the Kings have drafted just 1 winger in the first round since Lauri Tukonen in 2004. That winger was Tanner Pearson, the last pick of the first round in 2012. I'm shocked, shocked that the Kings never seem to have any snipers coming up other than random hits from later rounds (Toffoli/Kaliyev). Converting (pass first) centers to wingers isn't the answer. You can only develop what you have to work with.

I think, for the most part, people acknowledge that. Maybe I'm misremembering. I definitely think that for the vast majority of the decade the Kings didn't have the ammunition to do much at the draft anyway--and they've still turned each (late) 1st into a useful pick and gotten great mileage out of post-1st-round picks.

Where I worry--and I know KP is on the same page--is that the Kings haven't had elite talent to work with. We churn out NHLers like there's no tomorrow--but we have yet to handle and place an impact player of a blue chip background. I know absence of proof isn't proof of absence, that it's still early, and it's just an opinion at this point, but I'm absolutely worried about Vilardi, Turcotte, Byfield, Clarke, and how the organization handles them. Seeing guys get PP time over Turcotte in the AHL and Vilardi with harder starts than Danault on a team with two Selke finalists and "yay Byfield made the team...on the 4th line" after seeing how they handle that can be interpreted as something to worry about even if some disagree. It's at least something to keep an eye on, to scrutinize.

Yes, if you are hoping or expecting Turcotte to become a 1st or 2nd line productive center, it is time to worry. He is in his 3rd season since his draft, and since then hasn't shown a scoring touch that is expected of a 5th overall pick.

But IMO, if you'd be content with Trevor Lewis part 2, it is not yet time to worry. And I'm not knocking Trevor. Hell, he was also a 1st rounder (believe 17th OA), took a few years after his draft year to make the NHL, and played a superb role as a gritty 4th line center + penalty killer, who helped the Kings win 2 Stanley Cups. I'd be okay or content with Turcotte becoming TL part 2, if it includes a Cup or two.

I feel like TL 2.0 is his absolute floor, certainly. Nowhere to go but up imo.

 

[Ghetty Green]

Turc? He is 21 in 2 months. It's time he at least makes the org notice him and potentially force a trade to open a spot. Can't have anymore excuses, he is playing with Madden and Vilardi, he should start putting up better numbers. He went through a hot streak last year, needs to do that again and sustain it or he will just fall in a group of tweeners for scarce roster spots next year. And not just Alex, Fagemo is in that boat as well.

Sadly, Fagemo may have already have blown his chance #TradeBait

 

[Vino]

The wings were able to stash Datsuyk and Zetterberg in Grand Rapids till they were 24 years old because the big club was stocked and rolling.

Turcotte is 1st round pick, 5th overall. A couple more months and he is 21 years old.

Zetterberg was 7th round pick, Datsuyk was 6th round pick.

Zettenberg didn't play a single game in the AHL. He was drafted 1999, played 99-00, 00-01 and 01-02 in Sweden and the first season in the North-America (straight to the NHL, as 22 years old) was 2002-03. Regular season 79 GP, 22+22 = 44 pts, playoffs 4 GP, 1+0.

Datsyuk didn't play a single game in the AHL. He was drafted 1998 (overager, he was 19 years old), played three more years in Russia -> 1st season in the NHL (Datsyuk was just turned 23, when season started) 2001-02, regular season 70 GP, 11+24, playoffs 21 GP, 3+3.

If Turcotte turns out to be even half as good player than Zettenberg or Datsuyik, I'm going to ecstatic. For now I haven't seen any signs of it, but he had a couple more years to show that he was a worth a high first round pick.

 

[kingsfan]

Turcotte has played a total of 50 pro games as a 20 year old and has 31 points. I'm not at all concerned about his production. If you look at pre-draft scouting reports, he was expected to be an ideal second liner with grit and leadership skills. Nothing about his development so far says he won't be that yet. Due to covid he's essentially been robbed of about 50-60 games of development, if he'd played those he'd likely already have had a call up by now.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Found this projection summary from 2019:

>>Turcotte’s non-stop motor and offensive skills make him a prospect who can play in any situation and fill any role. He may need some time before he is NHL ready but will get plenty of time to bulk up while playing in the NCAA. With a few small improvements, Turcotte could become a number one centre in time. Even if he never reaches that ceiling and becomes an effective two-way second line centre, he will still be a coach’s favourite due to his defensive game and relentless energy. His game is reminiscent of Ryan O’Reilly, but this is a style comparison and not one based on skill or ability.<<

Alex Turcotte Scouting Report: 2019 NHL Draft #5 - Last Word On Hockey

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Found this projection summary from 2019:

>>Turcotte’s non-stop motor and offensive skills make him a prospect who can play in any situation and fill any role. He may need some time before he is NHL ready but will get plenty of time to bulk up while playing in the NCAA. With a few small improvements, Turcotte could become a number one centre in time. Even if he never reaches that ceiling and becomes an effective two-way second line centre, he will still be a coach’s favourite due to his defensive game and relentless energy. His game is reminiscent of Ryan O’Reilly, but this is a style comparison and not one based on skill or ability.<<

Alex Turcotte Scouting Report: 2019 NHL Draft #5 - Last Word On Hockey

Apparently 50 pro games is too much time....shoulda been NHL ready 10 games in......