Trevor Timmins Part II

[ginomini]

Compared to CSS (always choice between Euro and NA) Let's say we don't pick any goalies.
I will only do the 3 first rounds because later its completely random and I don't have time for that.


2013
McCarron - Zykov or De la Rose

De la Rose - Nastasiuk or De la Rose
Fucale - Nastasiuk or Hagg
Lehkonen - Carrier or Lehkonen

Crisp - Jimmy Lodge or Buchnevich
Andrighetto - Bjorkstrand or Crus Rydberg



2012

Galchenyuk - Grigorenko or Forsberg

Collberg - Matt Finn or Collberg
Thrower - Mike Winther or Prokhorkin

Bozon - Kosmachuk or Prokhorkin


2011

Beaulieu - Beaulieu or Jaskin

no picks until the fourth.

Don't have time to continue.

That said, I know CSS isn't the best because it's like another team, but it's public and it's the best comparison we can do.

So here is the result, we did better or even on pretty much every pick expect for the 2013 third round.

Having Buchnevich and Bjorkstrand would have been insane...

I recall at that time I had Bjorkstrand ranked in the first and wanted him badly in the second....

 

[Mathletic]

The lefebvre excuse will be valid as long as he has influence on the prospects in the organization.

The Habs rookie of the year is Lehkonen -- a guy who never got to know Lefebvre. Best rookie in years actually.

You said it yourself. Hudon is developing perfectly well. For some reason, they can't give him a shot. Hudon is developing well because he was a good prospect with upside to start with. All of Leblanc, De La Rose, Thrower and who have you were vanilla players from the start.

 

[ginomini]

...

Didn't you just proove my point? That aside from maybe Bjorkstrand and Duclair, nobody from that list will ever make it?

Did I say he was a bad pick? Or just that the end-result is that it didn't pan out? Shouldn't we hold Timmins, who's seen around here as the best or one of the best to a higher standards than the ones who suck? We should only blame Timmins for the Crisp and Koberstein picks? That the only time we could blame him is for the picks were not on the CSS radar? I think a guy of that quality should be held to different standards. And that in the end, whether it's totally, partially or maybe just slightly his fault, the END-RESULT is that it didn't work out. Period. Now, from a fan point of view, we go with what we see. From an organizational point of view, if they know that it's a devevelopment issue, or a draft pick issue, or whatever issue...you have to think that they'll deal with that accordingly.

Thing is....if for some people is has nothing to do with Timmins and ALWAYS about Lefebvre.....why the **** is this guy still here? And shouldn't someboyd be held accountable for that? And what the **** is Lapointe and Ramage doing?

No I did not prove your point, I proved that you can't hold the bozon pick against him. You can hold every other picks against him. I'm not saying Timmins is really good or anything. I think he is average and should simply go for more risky picks to have a more chance to hit homeruns.

 

[Whitesnake]

The lefebvre excuse will be valid as long as he has influence on the prospects in the organization.

The Habs rookie of the year is Lehkonen -- a guy who never got to know Lefebvre. Best rookie in years actually.

If Lefebvre is actually destroying every single prospect that goes through his hands, I hope you are line to ask for the firing of Marc Bergevin who kept protecting him and even said how good a work Lefebvre was doing. So I'll assume that this is the case. How incompetent a GM can be when he keeps a guy who just destroys every pick his head scout makes....

No I did not prove your point, I proved that you can't hold the bozon pick against him. You can hold every other picks against him. I'm not saying Timmins is really good or anything. I think he is average and should simply go for more risky picks to have a more chance to hit homeruns.

Well my point was to say that, as you said yourself, quite a few players ended up being picked quite late despite being great at the junior level. And for most of them....didn't make it. There were signs prior to his illness that suggested that Bozon had long ways to go. What his healthy issues did was to make sure he'd never make it. But in no way did we not know what we already had in our hands with him.

All great to not hold this against him....but the ''Timmins fanboys'' will actually use Bozon and put him in the ''win'' column as if without the illness...he would ahve surely made it. Would have love to read their reports about those guys prior to those illness. And they probably think that Chipchura ALSO would have been a top 6 offensive player if he would not have had his injury.

 

[DAChampion]

Bozon and Chipchura are neither wins nor losses, they are null results due to injuries.

 

[Whitesnake]

Bozon and Chipchura are neither wins nor losses, they are null results due to injuries.

Chipchura is still a guy they admitted as soon as they picked him that his ceiling was a 3rd line C in the NHL. It comes back to the strategy I was talking about earlier.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

The lefebvre excuse will be valid as long as he has influence on the prospects in the organization.

The Habs rookie of the year is Lehkonen -- a guy who never got to know Lefebvre. Best rookie in years actually.

I don't like SL but to be fair if a player doesn't need AHL time he's usually a good prospect to begin with, not because he avoided a coach.

Still, I don't want SL as our coach anyway.

 

[Tighthead]

When he first had an extended streak (2011-12) with the Habs, I thought Leblanc was in his way to becoming a serviceable third liner in the NHL. He wasn't going to shine but looked to be on track.

Then the next season he was in the A and his slide into obscurity began. I've always wondered if he was the poster boy for poor development. I think he was rushed, and even the switch to the Q was part of that. He also seems like a guy who didn't respond well to negative feedback and took a great deal of it in the A in 12-13.

Feel free to tell me I'm off base.

 

[DAChampion]

I don't like SL but to be fair if a player doesn't need AHL time he's usually a good prospect to begin with, not because he avoided a coach.

Still, I don't want SL as our coach anyway.

Lehkonen got his AHL-equivalent time in Europe.

Last year most of this board perceived him as a shrimp and a bust.

When he first had an extended streak (2011-12) with the Habs, I thought Leblanc was in his way to becoming a serviceable third liner in the NHL. He wasn't going to shine but looked to be on track.

Then the next season he was in the A and his slide into obscurity began. I've always wondered if he was the poster boy for poor development. I think he was rushed, and even the switch to the Q was part of that. He also seems like a guy who didn't respond well to negative feedback and took a great deal of it in the A in 12-13.

Feel free to tell me I'm off base.

Both Leblanc and Tinordi emerged as effective NHL players prior to regressing under Lefebvre.

 

[Tighthead]

Both Leblanc and Tinordi emerged as effective NHL players prior to regressing under Lefebvre.

Without knowing who to blame, I always felt that they completely lost their confidence after having some moderately early success.

I know Tinordi washed out in AZ, but I think he may have been as much of a development bust as a draft bust.

 

[scrubadam]

I'm not writing off anybody, it may be that for whatever reason this draft is full of late bloomers. I don't know why that would be, but it's possible.

I consider De La Rose a good selection and a talented player. If he doesn't make it, I'm blaming development. He was rushed into the NHL at age 18 because Therrien wanted to undermine Eller in order to protect Desharnais, which was really absurd and disgusting. It was bad for his development. Out in the AHL he has not been given much leeway to dominate.

Thats ridiculous comeon. MT/MB weren't making decision based on such petty BS.

DLR was never an offensive force when he was drafted. And why are you so high on the guy if he has had crap O numbers every where he has played? Probably because he made the NHL at 18 and that impressed you no? So the same conspiracy you have is the reason why you think he could of become something.

DLR was a bad choice. Big guy with no offensive game.

 

[DAChampion]

Thats ridiculous comeon. MT/MB weren't making decision based on such petty BS.

DLR was never an offensive force when he was drafted. And why are you so high on the guy if he has had crap O numbers every where he has played? Probably because he made the NHL at 18 and that impressed you no? So the same conspiracy you have is the reason why you think he could of become something.

DLR was a bad choice. Big guy with no offensive game.

They were. It made the Habs infuriating to watch. I'm glad that the Desharnais era is over.

 

[Whitesnake]

Lehkonen got his AHL-equivalent time in Europe.

Last year most of this board perceived him as a shrimp and a bust..

Last year? When he had that incredible season? I know that personnaly, the only thing I said about him was that I had no expectations. Didn't mean a bust. Just that it was tough to evaluate though yes, I thought he looked frail. But how can you bring the bust word based on the season he had?

 

[Andrei79]

Thats ridiculous comeon. MT/MB weren't making decision based on such petty BS.

DLR was never an offensive force when he was drafted. And why are you so high on the guy if he has had crap O numbers every where he has played? Probably because he made the NHL at 18 and that impressed you no? So the same conspiracy you have is the reason why you think he could of become something.

DLR was a bad choice. Big guy with no offensive game.

I don't know if I agree with that. He had similar numbers pre-draft to Filip Forsberg, who incidently some scouts had doubts about how his offense would translate. He also had a great WJC post-draft. I thought he looked like a budding PF. I feel he's a perfect example of our awful AHL development as he looked better at 18 than he does now.

 

[DAChampion]

Last year? When he had that incredible season? I know that personnaly, the only thing I said about him was that I had no expectations. Didn't mean a bust. Just that it was tough to evaluate though yes, I thought he looked frail. But how can you bring the bust word based on the season he had?

I didn't mean you personally. I meant the board. Lehkonen was a running gag around here, an example of Timmins going after smurfy busts.

 

[scrubadam]

I don't know if I agree with that. He had similar numbers pre-draft to Filip Forsberg, who incidently some scouts had doubts about how his offense would translate. He also had a great WJC post-draft. I thought he looked like a budding PF. I feel he's a perfect example of our awful AHL development as he looked better at 18 than he does now.

Well he just hit his highest point total in his career with 21 this year so he can't be developing so bad can he?

He never got higher than 14 points aside from this year in any league he played for, I think calling him a budding PF is a stretch. If he was that good he would of made the team like guys like Lek/Galley/ etc.. He has 64 NHL games with 4 goals I think he is being overrated a bit.

 

[DAChampion]

Well he just hit his highest point total in his career with 21 this year so he can't be developing so bad can he?

He never got higher than 14 points aside from this year in any league he played for, I think calling him a budding PF is a stretch. If he was that good he would of made the team like guys like Lek/Galley/ etc.. He has 64 NHL games with 4 goals I think he is being overrated a bit.

De La Rose was always playing above his age level, that's why his point totals were low.

When he played at his age level, in the WJC, he ran up the scoreboard.

 

[scrubadam]

They were. It made the Habs infuriating to watch. I'm glad that the Desharnais era is over.

Provide proof then. MB/MT weren't trying to undermine Eller so they decided to ruin DLR. Thats conspiracy theory level.

I am glad the DD era is over but JDLR wasn't brought up to screw over Eller and benefit DD.

 

[DAChampion]

Provide proof then. MB/MT weren't trying to undermine Eller so they decided to ruin DLR. Thats conspiracy theory level.

I am glad the DD era is over but JDLR wasn't brought up to screw over Eller and benefit DD.

Did you just use the word "conspiracy" as a counterargument?

Lol.

 

[scrubadam]

De La Rose was always playing above his age level, that's why his point totals were low.

When he played at his age level, in the WJC, he ran up the scoreboard.

Unless I am mistaken he had 7 goals and 16 points in 31 games ??

Doesn't really scream running up the scoreboard.

I don't think he ever got to double digits in goals at any level.

Did you just use the word "conspiracy" as a counterargument?

Lol.

Well saying MT and MB brought up DLR to undermine Eller for DD is a conspiracy.

How about they brought him because they liked something about him and since MT loves grindy guys he kept him up. Was Mac called up to undermine AG this year to benefit DD?

 

[Mathletic]

Both Leblanc and Tinordi emerged as effective NHL players prior to regressing under Lefebvre.

When?

De La Rose was always playing above his age level, that's why his point totals were low.

When he played at his age level, in the WJC, he ran up the scoreboard.

4 points in 7 games is hardly running up the scoreboard.

 

[scrubadam]

When?



4 points in 7 games is hardly running up the scoreboard.

Sly or no Sly, JDLR was not going from never scoring 10 goals in his life professionally to becoming a 20 goal scorer in the NHL.

TT fell in love with the package before thinking as usual. Thats why he drafted guys like Fishcer and Tinordi when Giroux and Kuz were on the board.

TT should be praising the lord above that Gainey decided Price over Stall and got an extra 1st rounder so he could pick up Max.

Imagine if all he had after 14 years of 1st round picks was McD/Marc Stall/and AG at 3 OVA.

 

[groovejuice]

Sly or no Sly, JDLR was not going from never scoring 10 goals in his life professionally to becoming a 20 goal scorer in the NHL.

TT fell in love with the package before thinking as usual. Thats why he drafted guys like Fishcer and Tinordi when Giroux and Kuz were on the board.

TT should be praising the lord above that Gainey decided Price over Stall and got an extra 1st rounder so he could pick up Max.

Imagine if all he had after 14 years of 1st round picks was McD/Marc Stall/and AG at 3 OVA.

Well the story on Giroux is an interesting one. Apparently he was Timmins' guy for a long time. According to Grant, who's related the story a few times, another scout on the Habs' payroll spent a lot of time and energy to persuade Trevor that Fischer was a must draft. Timmins allowed himself to be convinced.

Had this situation gone the other way, I'm quite sure there would be considerably less criticism of Timmins today. I'm sure he regrets his capitulation over that pick regularly.

 

[Whitesnake]

Well the story on Giroux is an interesting one. Apparently he was Timmins' guy for a long time. According to Grant, who's related the story a few times, another scout on the Habs' payroll spent a lot of time and energy to persuade Trevor that Fischer was a must draft. Timmins allowed himself to be convinced.

Had this situation gone the other way, I'm quite sure there would be considerably less criticism of Timmins today. I'm sure he regrets his capitulation over that pick regularly.

In the end, he has the last word. And Timmins does NOT solely rely on a scout's word. He goes and see the prospect play. Yes, that's what circulated at that time. I think that even the scout said that he was just certain that Fischer would be a NHL'er. Which is incredible......I've seen 10ish dev camps so far and everybody included like the invitees and so on....I've still so far never seen a guy with that poor of a shot. Was good 1 on 1 though. Just like I was once impressed by Oskari Korpikari 1 on 1 play. And even Niklas Torp. All 3 are working in a car shop as we speak....

 

[Mathletic]

Well the story on Giroux is an interesting one. Apparently he was Timmins' guy for a long time. According to Grant, who's related the story a few times, another scout on the Habs' payroll spent a lot of time and energy to persuade Trevor that Fischer was a must draft. Timmins allowed himself to be convinced.

Had this situation gone the other way, I'm quite sure there would be considerably less criticism of Timmins today. I'm sure he regrets his capitulation over that pick regularly.

I don't think there's that much criticism towards Timmins. I think the vast majority of people agree that he has done a good job. Missed on some but has done a good job overall. I personally have against people who see Timmins as a scout who can do no wrong. Only reason Tinordi or Leblanc or whoever didn't develop is because of Lefebvre just because Timmins picked them and if Timmins picked them it's because they're awesome. Timmins made some bad picks in the past and he can make mistakes like every other scout. Jus think that he would have picked Pouliot over Price if Benoit had slipped. He's not THAT good even if he's good.