Trevor Timmins Part II

[scrubadam]

Well the story on Giroux is an interesting one. Apparently he was Timmins' guy for a long time. According to Grant, who's related the story a few times, another scout on the Habs' payroll spent a lot of time and energy to persuade Trevor that Fischer was a must draft. Timmins allowed himself to be convinced.

Had this situation gone the other way, I'm quite sure there would be considerably less criticism of Timmins today. I'm sure he regrets his capitulation over that pick regularly.

I agree. Wonder how much damage a team with Giroux on it could of done.

And that means no Gomez trade to boot.

Would be interesting to see if that scout was fired for that. Fischer is up there as far as 1st round busts go.

 

[Whitesnake]

I don't think there's that much criticism towards Timmins. I think the vast majority of people agree that he has done a good job. Missed on some but has done a good job overall. I personally have against people who see Timmins as a scout who can do no wrong. Only reason Tinordi or Leblanc or whoever didn't develop is because of Lefebvre just because Timmins picked them and if Timmins picked them it's because they're awesome. Timmins made some bad picks in the past and he can make mistake like every other scout. Jus think that he would have picked Pouliot over Price if Benoit had slipped. He's not THAT good even if he's good.

Yeah it's insane. The worst they can say is that **** happens. Again, I personnally have it against the same people than you. But also against the strategy as I said numerous times. Based on the fact that some keep talking about crapshoot....crapshoot on offense then. Stop crapshooting on unknown guys or defensive ones. When is the last time that strategy worked? While on the contrary, he went with a pure offensive tiny player in Gallagher and it worked. Subban was seen as WAY TOO A DEFENSIVE LIABILITY!!!! Grabovski was seen as a pure frail offensive player. Even Streit who was, yes, unkwnon, was racking the offensive stats.

So Crisp, Koberstein, Staum, Pezzetta...that won't work. Might as well crapshoot on the guys he used to crapshoot on. Go offense. Go skills.

 

[Mathletic]

Yeah it's insane. The worst they can say is that **** happens. Again, I personnally have it against the same people than you. But also against the strategy as I said numerous times. Based on the fact that some keep talking about crapshoot....crapshoot on offense then. Stop crapshooting on unknown guys or defensive ones. When is the last time that strategy worked? While on the contrary, he went with a pure offensive tiny player in Gallagher and it worked. Subban was seen as WAY TOO A DEFENSIVE LIABILITY!!!! Grabovski was seen as a pure frail offensive player. Even Streit who was, yes, unkwnon, was racking the offensive stats.

So Crisp, Koberstein, Staum, Pezzetta...that won't work. Might as well crapshoot on the guys he used to crapshoot on.

That's my take on the subject as well. That's why I was mad after that 2013 draft. McCarron and De la Rose as top 2 picks just didn't cut it for me. Not to mention that they had no interest in a kid like Mantha. Beats the hell out of me how a team that's starved for offensive talent goes after players with bottom 6 potential.

 

[Whitesnake]

That's my take on the subject as well. That's why I was mad after that 2013 draft. McCarron and De la Rose as top 2 picks just didn't cut it for me. Not to mention that they had no interest in a kid like Mantha. Beats the hell out of me how a team that's starved for offensive talent goes after players with bottom 6 potential.

I have no idea why Theodore wasn't picked earlier. And not just by us.

 

[ginomini]

Yeah it's insane. The worst they can say is that **** happens. Again, I personnally have it against the same people than you. But also against the strategy as I said numerous times. Based on the fact that some keep talking about crapshoot....crapshoot on offense then. Stop crapshooting on unknown guys or defensive ones. When is the last time that strategy worked? While on the contrary, he went with a pure offensive tiny player in Gallagher and it worked. Subban was seen as WAY TOO A DEFENSIVE LIABILITY!!!! Grabovski was seen as a pure frail offensive player. Even Streit who was, yes, unkwnon, was racking the offensive stats.

So Crisp, Koberstein, Staum, Pezzetta...that won't work. Might as well crapshoot on the guys he used to crapshoot on. Go offense. Go skills.

We finaly agree. The BIG problem is the draft strategy. When guys like Arvidsson, Buchnevich and Bjorkstrand are passed for Crisps and Pezzettas....

I mean Arvidsson had 40 pts in the SHL, I think it was pretty obvious that he had a lot of offensive talent, why not try him ?


Speaking of which I would really like if we can sign Sebastian Aho, the swedish dmen, 21 yo 30 pts in 50 games in the SHL.

I was really high on him since I first saw him at the WJC, I never understood how a guy like Honka could go top 15 and Aho undrafted.

 

[DAChampion]

When?

Leblanc was always the best player on his team, and he did splendidly in the 2011 season as a third liner. Some may backtrack on this now but the fact is that this board was overwhelmingly impressed with his effectiveness, particularly his board work and his hockey IQ.

Tinordi emerged in 2013. He did well in the playoffs against Ottawa. We were excited. This board regarded Tinordi as an untouchable, and it was Beaulieu showing up in the trade proposals.

And then ... Lefebvre.

At least Zack Stortini got power play time !!!

 

[groovejuice]

I don't think there's that much criticism towards Timmins. I think the vast majority of people agree that he has done a good job. Missed on some but has done a good job overall. I personally have against people who see Timmins as a scout who can do no wrong. Only reason Tinordi or Leblanc or whoever didn't develop is because of Lefebvre just because Timmins picked them and if Timmins picked them it's because they're awesome. Timmins made some bad picks in the past and he can make mistakes like every other scout. Jus think that he would have picked Pouliot over Price if Benoit had slipped. He's not THAT good even if he's good.

In the case of Giroux, it was doubly damning because Giroux quickly proved himself, while Fischer was a bust from the get go.

Timmins makes mistakes like all scouts. He's had some picks that were destined to bust. He had a few that looked good at the time but never lived up to expectations. And he's picked some outright superstars. He's been well above average for many drafts, unlucky for some, and downright awful in others.

I do know that his record of total NHL games played by his selections is among the best of all teams looking at his whole career in Montreal.

Here is a very well researched article on Timmins' career.

http://www.allaboutthehabs.ca/an-examination-of-trevor-timmins-drafting/

 

[Whitesnake]

Leblanc was always the best player on his team, and he did splendidly in the 2011 season as a third liner. Some may backtrack on this now but the fact is that this board was overwhelmingly impressed with his effectiveness, particularly his board work and his hockey IQ.

Tinordi emerged in 2013. He did well in the playoffs against Ottawa. We were excited. This board regarded Tinordi as an untouchable, and it was Beaulieu showing up in the trade proposals.

And then ... Lefebvre.

At least Zack Stortini got power play time !!!

The number of kids that shows promise and then fade out are enormous. And obviously not only Habs related. Might be development related. Might still might be just a bad pick that played over his head for some time until reality kicks in.

Yeah, Lefebvre did some stupid things. The overusage of Robert Mayer while he was struggling was so dumb. And a few thousand other things. Yet again, if people can't say that it's ONLY the drafting.....you can't say it's ONLY the development either. And when it's a little bit of both. Or even if it's more one than the other, you still have to at least LOOK AT those things. Not just hide behind "but he did well since 2003" and just not accept that there still might be a problem in the drafting circle.

Again, I just don't believe in this drafting strategy. Especially when the GM keeps whining about how hard it is to find offensive threats and that the draft is the key....well geez....how about you leave the Pezzetta alone and concentrate on the real offensive threats, as many problems that offensive threat may have in the rest of his game.

They did that for Scherbak in 2014. And if it doesn't pan out, well, again, the end result would be that it didn't pan out......but tough to blame the risk taken here. As this is exactkly what I would have done. And what I want them to do. Remains to be seen though if we chose a risky offensive player and we just happen to not choose....the right risk. Would Goldobin be a better choice? Would Ho-Sang? Barbashev? So many risky possbilities here.

 

[groovejuice]

I agree. Wonder how much damage a team with Giroux on it could of done.

And that means no Gomez trade to boot.

Would be interesting to see if that scout was fired for that. Fischer is up there as far as 1st round busts go.

Like Whitesnake said, there no doubt that Timmins didn't himself watch Fischer play, very likely multiple times. Ultimately it was his decision and even though that scout was as wrong as one can be, it was Timmins' fault that they called Fischer's name and not Giroux's.

 

[DAChampion]

The number of kids that shows promise and then fade out are enormous. And obviously not only Habs related. Might be development related. Might still might be just a bad pick that played over his head for some time until reality kicks in.

Yeah, Lefebvre did some stupid things. The overusage of Robert Mayer while he was struggling was so dumb. And a few thousand other things. Yet again, if people can't say that it's ONLY the drafting.....you can't say it's ONLY the development either. And when it's a little bit of both. Or even if it's more one than the other, you still have to at least LOOK AT those things. Not just hide behind "but he did well since 2003" and just not accept that there still might be a problem in the drafting circle.

Again, I just don't believe in this drafting strategy. Especially when the GM keeps whining about how hard it is to find offensive threats and that the draft is the key....well geez....how about you leave the Pezzetta alone and concentrate on the real offensive threats, as many problems that offensive threat may have in the rest of his game.

They did that for Scherbak in 2014. And if it doesn't pan out, well, again, the end result would be that it didn't pan out......but tough to blame the risk taken here. As this is exactkly what I would have done. And what I want them to do. Remains to be seen though if we chose a risky offensive player and we just happen to not choose....the right risk. Would Goldobin be a better choice? Would Ho-Sang? Barbashev? So many risky possbilities here.

I get your point that Timmins should go for higher-risk, higher-reward players with picks, particularly given that bottom six forwards and third pairing dmen are incredibly easy to acquire on the trade and UFA market.

However it is simply difficult to assign general blame onto Timmins given how god awful the axis of Therrien, Lefebvre, and Desharnais have been in terms of their affect on prospects. It's been a bloodbath. Like Pateryn for example (acquired by trade not Timmins), somehow he got through Lefebvre, but Therrien just hated his guts. Who knows why? It's complete amateur hour with the coaching staff. When they need to add staff in St-John's, they go add the nephews or sons-in-law of senior Habs brass, regardless of the fact they never won anything. They never look to add coaches with pedigree.

It's just been a gong show that makes it difficult to evaluate Timmins drafting. Hopefully Claude Julien exercises his influence and seeks to implement general improvement.

I also get the slogan (and that's what it is) that a good player will be a good player regardless of development. Here's the thing: if you've ever been good at anything you will understand that development matters. Ice time matters. Linemates matter. Et cetera. A player who plays 12 minutes a game, with inferior linemates, no PP time, no PK time, and no guidance from the coaching staff will simply not develop as well as one given normal opportunities.

 

[Whitesnake]

I get your point that Timmins should go for higher-risk, higher-reward players with picks, particularly given that bottom six forwards and third pairing dmen are incredibly easy to acquire on the trade and UFA market.

However it is simply difficult to assign general blame onto Timmins given how god awful the axis of Therrien, Lefebvre, and Desharnais have been in terms of their affect on prospects. It's been a bloodbath. Like Pateryn for example (acquired by trade not Timmins), somehow he got through Lefebvre, but Therrien just hated his guts. Who knows why? It's complete amateur hour with the coaching staff. When they need to add staff in St-John's, they go add the nephews or sons-in-law of senior Habs brass, regardless of the fact they never won anything. They never look to add coaches with pedigree.

It's just been a gong show that makes it difficult to evaluate Timmins drafting. Hopefully Claude Julien exercises his influence and seeks to implement general improvement.

I also get the slogan (and that's what it is) that a good player will be a good player regardless of development. Here's the thing: if you've ever been good at anything you will understand that development matters. Ice time matters. Linemates matter. Et cetera. A player who plays 12 minutes a game, with inferior linemates, no PP time, no PK time, and no guidance from the coaching staff will simply not develop as well as one given normal opportunities.

I know what you mean. People underestimate the confidence that a kid gets and what it does to the development. And as a kid, it might be awfully easy to go from being lights out to completely discourage and lose the focus.

Still....it doesn't change the fact that the strategy has to be revised. The strategy in itself has nothing to do with Therrien. A lot though with Bergevin who, while he gives carte blanche to Timmins, you have to hope that he'd slow down on the karakter.....and ask Timmins to concentrate on offense and skills.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I get your point that Timmins should go for higher-risk, higher-reward players with picks, particularly given that bottom six forwards and third pairing dmen are incredibly easy to acquire on the trade and UFA market.

However it is simply difficult to assign general blame onto Timmins given how god awful the axis of Therrien, Lefebvre, and Desharnais have been in terms of their affect on prospects. It's been a bloodbath. Like Pateryn for example (acquired by trade not Timmins), somehow he got through Lefebvre, but Therrien just hated his guts. Who knows why? It's complete amateur hour with the coaching staff. When they need to add staff in St-John's, they go add the nephews or sons-in-law of senior Habs brass, regardless of the fact they never won anything. They never look to add coaches with pedigree.

It's just been a gong show that makes it difficult to evaluate Timmins drafting. Hopefully Claude Julien exercises his influence and seeks to implement general improvement.

I also get the slogan (and that's what it is) that a good player will be a good player regardless of development. Here's the thing: if you've ever been good at anything you will understand that development matters. Ice time matters. Linemates matter. Et cetera. A player who plays 12 minutes a game, with inferior linemates, no PP time, no PK time, and no guidance from the coaching staff will simply not develop as well as one given normal opportunities.

I agree with you and have believed this for a long time. It's not coincidence that once SL and MT came onboard that Timmins' picks suddenly weren't producing the same kind of players... Development's a huge problem for us.

 

[Whitesnake]

I agree with you and have believed this for a long time. It's not coincidence that once SL and MT came onboard that Timmins' picks suddenly weren't producing the same kind of players... Development's a huge problem for us.

And again, if you really believe that the sole and unique reason for us not developing players it's that, and that those 2 guys are responsible for KILLING prospects......you have to be in line for a Bergevin firing. Like...right now. You cannot support Bergevin and think what you just said. Nobody would support a guy who gladly will put a system in place so that his team has NO SHOT at ever becoming better.

Development is a problem. But drafting is too as far as strategy is concerned. And Timmins hasn't been as sharp.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Drafted 207th overall, long shot, blah blah. Anybody after the 2nd round is a long shot. He is exactly the type of player we should be selecting at every pick, a guy with skill. Skating also important.

But wouldn't you rather draft an unskilled grinder in the 6th round over a guy who was a touted top 5 pick, adjusting to North America, with a bum shoulder, who scored 30+ goals on one of the worst teams in the CHL?

I was stoked when we picked Evans. He may never amount to anything at the NHL, but he is a swing for the fences, rather than a sacrifice bunt that doesn't even get your guy on base.

 

[Whitesnake]

But wouldn't you rather draft an unskilled grinder in the 6th round over a guy who was a touted top 5 pick, adjusting to North America, with a bum shoulder, who scored 30+ goals on one of the worst teams in the CHL?

I was stoked when we picked Evans. He may never amount to anything at the NHL, but he is a swing for the fences, rather than a sacrifice bunt that doesn't even get your guy on base.

Absolutely. Skills first. Then skills 2nd. And you finish your analysis with skills too. You know that's my take for as long as I don't remember.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Drafted 207th overall, long shot, blah blah. Anybody after the 2nd round is a long shot. He is exactly the type of player we should be selecting at every pick, a guy with skill. Skating also important.

There are quite a few examples of players drafted late that carve out a great career in the NHL: Markov was drafted 6th round, Datsuyk drafted 6th round, Zetterberg drafted 7th round, just to name a few.

Even others who were never drafted like Martin St. Louis who have HOF careers.

I don't get discouraged by how late a pick is selected. I'm even thinking that our 7th round pick last year, Arvid Henrikson can impress us. I recall reading encouraging things about him during his first development camp last summer.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Lehkonen got his AHL-equivalent time in Europe.

Last year most of this board perceived him as a shrimp and a bust.

I may be wrong but he was ranked a top 10 habs prospect by most outlets and most people here.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2099707&highlight=top

He was ranked 4th by our own board last year. That doesn't really coincide with 'most people' thinking he's a bust.

 

[DAChampion]

I may be wrong but he was ranked a top 10 habs prospect by most outlets and most people here.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2099707&highlight=top

He was ranked 4th by our own board last year. That doesn't really coincide with 'most people' thinking he's a bust.

This was after the Sergachev draft, about 5 minutes before Lehkonen came over.

 

[Treb]

This was after the Sergachev draft, about 5 minutes before Lehkonen came over.

He was 10th in 2015:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1925693&highlight=top+habs+prospect+rankings
1. Nikita Scherbak, RW, Everett Silvertips (75% of the vote).
2. Mike McCarron, RW/C, Oshawa Generals (72.39%).
3. Jacob De La Rose, C, Montreal Canadiens (35.77%).
4. Charles Hudon, C/LW, Hamilton Bulldogs (43.06%)
5. Noah Juulsen, D, Everett Silvertips. (53.42%)
6. Jarred Tinordi, D, Hamilton Bulldogs. (62.50%)
7. Sven Andrighetto, RW, Hamilton Bulldogs (29.37%)
8. Zachary Fucale, G, Quebec Remparts. (41.94%)
9. Martin Reway, LW, HC Sparta Praha (41.78%)
10. Artturi Lehkonen, LW, Frolunda (34.01%)

Most people were pretty excited for him in 2016 too. Read his thread around April. Lots of people already penciling him as a 2nd liner.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

There's players who were drafted in earlier rounds who didn't pass through SL and still busted.

I'd say SL got his hands on players from 2008 draft and later(2007 being guys like Subban with Guy Boucher).

Top 2 round picks since:

2008-Kristo(2nd), saw SL for only 9 games. Bust.
2009-Leblanc(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time.(Not sure if he also suffered injuries). Bust.
2010-Tinordi(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time. Bust.
2011-Beaulieu(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time. NHLer.
2012-Collberg(2nd), saw SL for 2 games. Bust.
2012-Thrower(2nd), saw SL for 9 games. Bust.
2013-McCarron(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time. Bottom 6 NHLer.
2013-JDL(2nd), saw SL for an extended period of time. Fringe NHLer
2013-Zucale(2nd), saw SL for an extended period of time. Looks like a bust.
2014-Scherbak(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time. TBD.

I don't like SL at all. I want him gone but I'm not sure how we could blame him for Collberg, Kristo, Thrower and others. I realize Thrower suffered an injury but I believe Leblanc did as well no? Zucale seemingly had bad numbers even in QJMHL, the thing going for him is that he found a way to win but his team had Ehlers and Drouin on it...

As high as we may have been on guys like tinordi or whoever, we can also be wrong. We were high on a lot of players who didn't make it.

Again, fire SL please but TT needs to do better or fire his scouts who aren't getting the job done.

I think our scouting staff is in a slump personally and I'm sure TT and his staff will get a few gems eventually but they haven't lately, development or not. The only one worth noting is Gallagher obviously who is a steal.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

He was 10th in 2015:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1925693&highlight=top+habs+prospect+rankings
1. Nikita Scherbak, RW, Everett Silvertips (75% of the vote).
2. Mike McCarron, RW/C, Oshawa Generals (72.39%).
3. Jacob De La Rose, C, Montreal Canadiens (35.77%).
4. Charles Hudon, C/LW, Hamilton Bulldogs (43.06%)
5. Noah Juulsen, D, Everett Silvertips. (53.42%)
6. Jarred Tinordi, D, Hamilton Bulldogs. (62.50%)
7. Sven Andrighetto, RW, Hamilton Bulldogs (29.37%)
8. Zachary Fucale, G, Quebec Remparts. (41.94%)
9. Martin Reway, LW, HC Sparta Praha (41.78%)
10. Artturi Lehkonen, LW, Frolunda (34.01%)

Most people were pretty excited for him in 2016 too. Read his thread around April. Lots of people already penciling him as a 2nd liner.

In the media:

HF Article May 30th 2016(6th on habs)

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articl...-among-top-20-montreal-canadiens-prospects/2/

TSN Craig Button Feb 11th 2016(Ranked 34th league wide, 1st on habs)

http://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-s-top-50-nhl-affiliated-prospects-1.436669

On HF:

August 18th, 2015 (ranked top 10 on most lists and by pronman)

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1942413&highlight=top

Ranked 10th by HF poster montreal:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1934189&highlight=top

I could've kept going but didn't.

 

[WeThreeKings]

There's players who were drafted in earlier rounds who didn't pass through SL and still busted.

I'd say SL got his hands on players from 2008 draft and later(2007 being guys like Subban with Guy Boucher).

Top 2 round picks since:

2008-Kristo(2nd), saw SL for only 9 games. Bust.
2009-Leblanc(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time.(Not sure if he also suffered injuries). Bust.
2010-Tinordi(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time. Bust.
2011-Beaulieu(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time. NHLer.
2012-Collberg(2nd), saw SL for 2 games. Bust.
2012-Thrower(2nd), saw SL for 9 games. Bust.
2013-McCarron(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time. Bottom 6 NHLer.
2013-JDL(2nd), saw SL for an extended period of time. Fringe NHLer
2013-Zucale(2nd), saw SL for an extended period of time. Looks like a bust.
2014-Scherbak(1st), saw SL for an extended period of time. TBD.

I don't like SL at all. I want him gone but I'm not sure how we could blame him for Collberg, Kristo, Thrower and others. I realize Thrower suffered an injury but I believe Leblanc did as well no? Zucale seemingly had bad numbers even in QJMHL, the thing going for him is that he found a way to win but his team had Ehlers and Drouin on it...

As high as we may have been on guys like tinordi or whoever, we can also be wrong. We were high on a lot of players who didn't make it.

Again, fire SL please but TT needs to do better or fire his scouts who aren't getting the job done.

I think our scouting staff is in a slump personally and I'm sure TT and his staff will get a few gems eventually but they haven't lately, development or not. The only one worth noting is Gallagher obviously who is a steal.

Ottawa identified a scout behind Hakan Andersson in Detroit, brought him over, and saw an increase in great players drafted.

We need to look to see who is behind another scout in Washington or Tampa Bay. Who is finding these gems, and offer them a boat load of money to take over the head scouting here in Montreal.

We need to look at teams like Halifax in the Q, Frolunda in the SHL, and find out who is identifying young talent there. Pay them to come over, or pay the guys in the SHL to feed us information while they are scouting for their club team there.

There is a bunch of ways to get creative with scouting and get the best people, much like Toronto did. They said, who is dominant in the OHL; London, Sault St. Marie and Oshawa. They went out and got the minds responsible for their success and added them to their organization. As a result, they've been able to add intriguing young talent into their organization, development has improved, and it isn't just their first round picks. Their grabbing guys like Nielsen, Korshkov, Grundstrom, etc. etc.

 

[Whitesnake]

This was after the Sergachev draft, about 5 minutes before Lehkonen came over.

Not sure what you mean. Even if we knew he was coming over, why did it change people perspective that he'd fail or not?

In 2015, he was #10. Again, I don't see the bust factor.

 

[ginomini]

I feel like the biggest weakness of this scouting team is finding players with great hockey sense.

I mean, even the best picks of Timmins have weak/questionnable hockey sense.

Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Beaulieu, Subban and Gallagher are far from having real impressive hockey sense and vision.

The players with the best sense and vision on the team are propably Markov and Radulov and both weren't picked by Timmins.
I'd say McDonagh and Streit are the ony 2 players Timmins drafted who had succes in the NHL while having a top Hockey sense.

 

[scrubadam]

I feel like the biggest weakness of this scouting team is finding players with great hockey sense.

I mean, even the best picks of Timmins have weak/questionnable hockey sense.

Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Beaulieu, Subban and Gallagher are far from having real impressive hockey sense and vision.

The players with the best sense and vision on the team are propably Markov and Radulov and both weren't picked by Timmins.
I'd say McDonagh and Streit are the ony 2 players Timmins drafted who had succes in the NHL while having a top Hockey sense.

I think thats a good point. TT tends to fall in love with some physical specimens. Chipchura/Tinordi/Fischer/Crisp/Torp/McCarron etc... Ya he takes some small guys here or there but a lot of oafs in there that have the tools but tool box is in question.