Trevor Timmins Part II

[Habby Gilmore]

Who would we replace Timmons with if we were to fire him? Who's a better option that's could be available?

 

[Chili]

Who would we replace Timmons with if we were to fire him? Who's a better option that's could be available?

According to the NHL.com Habs website, the Director of Amateur Scouting is Shane Churla so did it quietly already happen last off season?

 

[jfm133]

I choose Ottawa because they had similar number and quality of picks and I started in 2007 because it was Dorion's first year in charge and the guy was highly praised for boldly picking Karlson. Tell us who done much better than Montréal and Ottawa with similar quality and number of picks since 2003. Don't come up with teams always at the bottom or picking five years in a row in the top-10. Teams with similar quantity and quality of picks since 2003, first year for Timmins.

Notice again that I choose to start in 2007 because of Dorion, because starting in 2003 Timmins would have looked even better.

 

[calder candidate]

Ottawa 2008 to 2016
62 picks
10 - 1st round pick (avg. pick 15.7)
8- 2nd round pick

Montreal 2008 to 2016
57 Picks
8 - 1st round pick (avg. pick 18.25) The Galchenyuk pick is really bring down that avg.e
6- 2nd round pick

That is a extra 5 picks, 4 picks in the first 2 rounds. They might have had better results but considering the Quantity and Quality of pick I don't think Ottawa has done a much better job.

 

[Sorinth]

The great part about this is that we go from Timmins is the best to it's close with Ottawa....an Ottawa who ****ed up almonst EVERY SINGLE one of their 1st rounders since 2003. Thank god for Karlsson and surely their 2015 and 2016 draft.

So, just before people claims how Timmins is DA best.....and in the end it's close with a bad Ottawa scouting team....maybe we should refrain ourselves from claims that shouldn't be. Timmins is good. But maybe he shoudln't be exempt from criticisms because what he had mostly done 10 years ago . Can he improve it with the past 2 drafts? Sure he can. And the evaluation WILL change. Not sure why people can't accept that.

Well which scouts/teams would you prefer we use? If Timmins isn't one of the best then it should be pretty easy to name a bunch of teams that have done better. My guess is very few didn't have lots of high picks.

 

[scrubadam]

People who say they would take EK before Subban + McDonagh are completely off track.

Ask any GM in the league what they would take, Ovechkin or Kane + Toews ?


Mmhh duh every one would take Ovechkin he has 6 times more Maurice Richard Trophy ...

You don't win a Stanley Cup with one star. It's pretty clear that a team with Subban AND McDo would have the upper hand vs a team with only Karlsson (if the rest of the defense would be equal).


That said, Ottawa have clearly drafted a little better in the last 10 years, but it is pretty pointless to argue on that point. Both teams haven't drafted well enough to be cup contenders. The both lack star talent up front. Both teams have been average, not terrible has a lot here are saying here.

Timmins and Dorion aren't terrible head scouts, but they haven't been the bests either in the last 10 years and thats all.

agree with your post except the first part.

I think the more apt comparison is Crosby vs Kane and Towes. If some would take PK+McD I understand, but you can also make an argument for taking EK and its not so outlandish. And the D would still have Markov back there. EK and Markov how good of an offense and PP would the habs have?

 

[rockjngo]

I would fire Trevor Timmins and hire Washington Capital's amateur scout....

Since 2006
Nicklas Backstrom
Semyon Varlamov
Michal Neuvirth
Karl Alzner
John Carlson
Braden Holtby
Marcus Johansson
Dmitri Orlov
Cody Eakin
Evgeny Kuznetsov
Philipp Grubauer
Filip Forsberg
Tom Wilson
Andre Burakovsky
Madison Bowey
Jakub Vrana
Ilya Samsonov

 

[calder candidate]

agree with your post except the first part.

I think the more apt comparison is Crosby vs Kane and Towes. If some would take PK+McD I understand, but you can also make an argument for taking EK and its not so outlandish. And the D would still have Markov back there. EK and Markov how good of an offense and PP would the habs have?

It doesn't really matter how good of a PP the habs would have with EK + Markov because if you still have Markov you have him in both cases having PK + McD + Markov is still definitely better than EK + Markov...

 

[Whitesnake]

Well which scouts/teams would you prefer we use? If Timmins isn't one of the best then it should be pretty easy to name a bunch of teams that have done better. My guess is very few didn't have lots of high picks.

Thing is....it,s extremely subjective. I would bring you anybody, and you'd always come back to this 2007 draft as, I've said already, it was an incredible draft. I guess we should bring André Boudrias back...he is the one who did draft Svoboda, Corson, Richer, Roy, Cassels, Leclair, Desjardins and Schneider amongst other names. But you know what the strange things are about Boudrias....people mostly remember the fails that were Charron, Vallis, Bilodeau and Wilkie DESPITE the all-star list I named before. Strange how that works.......And just before you tell me about the gazillion picks Boudrias had to work with and so on, well since context is key for everything, we could also easily say how scouting was different back then, how they surely didn't have half of what Timmins and Co have to work with and so on. End result is that during Boudrias' era, not sure you will also find another one who drafted that many stars and yet....nobody cried when he got replaced.

So since every draft is completely different, since a team might have had picks a little ahead of Timmins.....or maybe have slightly a few more picks, it will never be good enough. Obviously forgetting that there was a few years in there too when Timmins had a few picks, and like in 2012 and 2013 had more picks quite high. But then, we could always comeback with the excuse that.....poor him, he had more draft picks to work with....but on worst drafts. So what's the point really. All this because we had the "nerve" to question his work, just like EVERYBODY in this world has their work questioned at some point. Dream job, I,ll tell you.

In this discussion of ''Who do you prefer in the league'', you know that we can't answer that. Why? Because we have no idea, if we don't do an extensive research, about who replaced who and when. Do you know exactly who was the chief Amateur scout for Ottawa? WAs it the same person all these years? If I decided or want someboyd else, I,m actually taking A GUY not a TEAM's resume. A head scout shouldn'T be seen as bad because the head scout before him was....

 

[MasterDecoy]

I would fire Trevor Timmins and hire Washington Capital's amateur scout....

Since 2006
Nicklas Backstrom
Semyon Varlamov
Michal Neuvirth
Karl Alzner
John Carlson
Braden Holtby
Marcus Johansson
Dmitri Orlov
Cody Eakin
Evgeny Kuznetsov
Philipp Grubauer
Filip Forsberg
Tom Wilson
Andre Burakovsky
Madison Bowey
Jakub Vrana
Ilya Samsonov

forsberg wasn't drafted by them

 

[Capitano]

forsberg wasn't drafted by them

I'm pretty sure he was drafted by the Capitals and traded for Martin Erat.

 

[ginomini]

forsberg wasn't drafted by them

Oh really ?

 

[DAChampion]

I'm pretty sure he was drafted by the Capitals and traded for Martin Erat.

An equal to the McDonagh trade.

 

[Capitano]

An equal to the McDonagh trade.

Caps have drafted extremely well though...I agree with the poster (rockjngo) that said we should go after their scouts

 

[Rockomax]

forsberg wasn't drafted by them

What?

Selected 11th overall by the Washington Capitals in the 2012 NHL draft.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2012e.html

 

[MasterDecoy]

I'm pretty sure he was drafted by the Capitals and traded for Martin Erat.

derp, had it backwards

 

[scrubadam]

It doesn't really matter how good of a PP the habs would have with EK + Markov because if you still have Markov you have him in both cases having PK + McD + Markov is still definitely better than EK + Markov...

And I bet if you went on Ottawa's board they would all take EK over PK+McD.

I can see your side, but again taking a 2 time winning Norris D, probably 3 or 4 time winner isn't that far fetched.

 

[jfm133]

Ottawa 2008 to 2016
62 picks
10 - 1st round pick (avg. pick 15.7)
8- 2nd round pick

Montreal 2008 to 2016
57 Picks
8 - 1st round pick (avg. pick 18.25) The Galchenyuk pick is really bring down that avg.e
6- 2nd round pick

That is a extra 5 picks, 4 picks in the first 2 rounds. They might have had better results but considering the Quantity and Quality of pick I don't think Ottawa has done a much better job.

Why do you cut 2007?

 

[jfm133]

I would fire Trevor Timmins and hire Washington Capital's amateur scout....

Since 2006
Nicklas Backstrom
Semyon Varlamov
Michal Neuvirth
Karl Alzner
John Carlson
Braden Holtby
Marcus Johansson
Dmitri Orlov
Cody Eakin
Evgeny Kuznetsov
Philipp Grubauer
Filip Forsberg
Tom Wilson
Andre Burakovsky
Madison Bowey
Jakub Vrana
Ilya Samsonov

Why not include 2005. It would give both teams two top-5 picks. Also Washignton had 5 more top-60 picks, and three more first round picks. Not much better than Montréal from 2005 on.

 

[Sorinth]

In this discussion of ''Who do you prefer in the league'', you know that we can't answer that. Why? Because we have no idea, if we don't do an extensive research, about who replaced who and when. Do you know exactly who was the chief Amateur scout for Ottawa? WAs it the same person all these years? If I decided or want someboyd else, I,m actually taking A GUY not a TEAM's resume. A head scout shouldn'T be seen as bad because the head scout before him was....

Well that's the point how can you say he is or isn't one of the best if you have no idea and haven't done any research?

I would fire Trevor Timmins and hire Washington Capital's amateur scout....

Since 2006
Nicklas Backstrom
Semyon Varlamov
Michal Neuvirth
Karl Alzner
John Carlson
Braden Holtby
Marcus Johansson
Dmitri Orlov
Cody Eakin
Evgeny Kuznetsov
Philipp Grubauer
Filip Forsberg
Tom Wilson
Andre Burakovsky
Madison Bowey
Jakub Vrana
Ilya Samsonov

I can't find much info on it but it appears the current head scout was hired as a regular scout for the 2006-2007 season, and was promoted to head scout at some point afterwards. But I can't find when.

That said Washington certainly has been one of the best teams at the draft for quite some time now. And they've had a GM whose gone out and and acquired extra 1st round picks which is what we should've been doing as well.

 

[rockjngo]

Why not include 2005. It would give both teams two top-5 picks. Also Washignton had 5 more top-60 picks, and three more first round picks. Not much better than Montréal from 2005 on.

Caps got new GMT HAT year replaced scouting department

 

[GREMLIN]

derp, had it backwards

You thought Forsberg played for the Caps?

 

[Jeffrey]

Not much better than Montréal from 2005 on.

You gotta be kidding right?

I would fire Trevor Timmins and hire Washington Capital's amateur scout....

Since 2006
Nicklas Backstrom
Semyon Varlamov
Michal Neuvirth
Karl Alzner
John Carlson
Braden Holtby
Marcus Johansson
Dmitri Orlov
Cody Eakin
Evgeny Kuznetsov
Philipp Grubauer
Filip Forsberg
Tom Wilson
Andre Burakovsky
Madison Bowey
Jakub Vrana
Ilya Samsonov

Backstrom >> Galchenyuk
Holtby = Price
Forsberg = Pacioretty
Alzner < McDonagh
Carlson = Subban
Johansson > Kostitsyn, Lehkonen, D'agostini
Orlov > Beaulieu
Vrana > Scherbak
Kuznetsov >>>> Leblanc
Eakin =/< Gallagher
Wilson > McCarron
Bowey > Tinordi
Burakowski >>> De la rose
Perreault >> Dumont

Varlamov > Any habs goalkeeper drafted not named Price
Neuvirth (see Varlamov)
Grubauer (see Varlamov)
Samsonov (see Varlamov)

Washington are the top team in the NHL for a reason. They know how to draft.

 

[jfm133]

Since 2005

Nicklas Backstrom - Pacioretty even

Semyon Varlamov gave Wash Filip Forsberg redundant

Michal Neuvirth

Karl Alzner - McDonagh Mtl win

John Carlson - Subban Mtl win

Braden Holtby - Price Mtl win

Marcus Johansson - Lekhonen even

Dmitri Orlov - Beaulieu Wash win

Cody Eakin - Latendresse even

Evgeny Kuznetsov - Gallagher Wash win

Philipp Grubauer

Filip Forsberg - Galchenyuk even

Tom Wilson - McCarron Wash win

Andre Burakovsky - Scherbak Wash win

Madison Bowey - Sergachev Mtl win

Jakub Vrana - Hudon Wash win

Ilya Samsonov - Fucale Wash win


Add to that Juulsen and DeLaRose as a value to offset Neuvirth and Grubauer

Also, for fair comparison, let's remember that Washington had three more first round picks and two more second round picks. So overall, it is pretty similar.

 

[Whitesnake]

Well that's the point how can you say he is or isn't one of the best if you have no idea and haven't done any research?

Maybe because that was never the point? Maybe because my only point and sole point EVER was to say that he struggles since his great 2007? Is there an analysis made since 2008? And THAT rebuttal of yours was to say that he WAS surely the best or amongst the best based on his OVERALL record since 2003. So YOU actually go the DA BEST route...which then brings your own question.....have you done the research? And by research I mean, not only this research since 2003 but not only by team...but have you determined which head scout starts and ends where for each team? So that if a team sucks from 2003 to 2010....but changed their head scout and were great since 2010 that maybe THAT head scout could be the best all proportions aside?