Trevor Timmins Part II

[scrubadam]

So much wrong with this

Such as?

Ottawa has drafted better than us since 07. TT's biggest fish is Max and Dorion can't match that. EK is better than PK+McD combined and will have double to quadruaple the Norrises of those 2 combined.

He drafted like 5 20G scorers. You wouldn't want a couple of 20 Goal guys on the habs right now? Everyone is disappointed we didn't add scoring at the TDL but MB couldn't because prices were too high. If we had Stone/Hoffman/Smith/Dzingle/Sifverberg we wouldn't need to add scoring or we could trade one of those guys.

Well it's easy to say now that we don't have McDo....but a PK/McDo pairing would be doing what Karlsson alone can't do.

Thats true, but its also like saying AG+Galley will do what Crosby can't do alone. Both those guys would make a great backbone for a D but EK is on his own level no matter how much shade is thrown his way from this board. 2 Norrises already and I bet he will finish his career with at least 3 and even 4 or 5. PK has 1 probably doesn't win another and I don't know if McD ever wins one.

If EK has 4 Norrises compared to 1 for PK+McD the decision to me on which I would take is pretty easy.

I'm all for some revisionist analysis....but you still have to give the guy what he did. Pacioretty was drafted in the 1st round. He had to believe there was some offensive to his game. I mean, if the idea is to judge who worked and who didn't, and put it almost all on the head scout...well if he gets the bad, he gets the good too. 'Cause after that, it's incredibly subjective.

I agree I am being fascious with the reasoning to point out the double standard. Basically when things go wrong its on the GM or the coach, but if the pick goes right then its on TT.

Max is a great example because he was an extra pick the GM traded for (counter to the lack of picks) and struggled at first until he went back to the AHL and played under Boucher.

But personally I believe that we judge the failures or successes on the scout because there are to many variables in development and 2 of the same players can both develop differently under the same coach in the same organization.

 

[Whitesnake]

I agree I am being fascious with the reasoning to point out the double standard. Basically when things go wrong its on the GM or the coach, but if the pick goes right then its on TT.

Max is a great example because he was an extra pick the GM traded for (counter to the lack of picks) and struggled at first until he went back to the AHL and played under Boucher.

But personally I believe that we judge the failures or successes on the scout because there are to many variables in development and 2 of the same players can both develop differently under the same coach in the same organization.

Yeah, well you won't see me arguing that. I think we can't do though what others are doing. For a fan point of view, who doesn't know everything in the inside, I choose to believe that picks are mostly the head scout decision. Yep, I do understand the development aspect of the game, reason why I wanted Lefebvre out for the past 3 years now. But who to attribute somebody success apart from the pick....it's pretty tough.

 

[Andrei79]

And the point? If Sly ruined anyone then we can just go and say that Boucher made Max then no? So why would we credit TT for his great 07 when Boucher (and DD to a lesser extent) made Max and the Rangers system made McD?

Or is only the picks that bust that its on "development" and the picks that make it its because TT forsaw they would be great?

It's a combination, that's what most posters are saying. Great development is useless without good picks, and the opposite applies as well. You also need actual draft picks to maximize your chance of getting good players, which means either keeping them or adding them through trades.

If you're getting the kind of coaching that's been going on in Hamilton, then you'll obviously run into huge development problems with your prospects. You don't need to look far to see how bad development can ruin even the best prospects, just look at the Oilers. They needed to fire their whole management team and draft McDavid to turn things around. Before anyone talks about the quality of picks you need to have a good AHL team, I'll just point out Hamilton during Boucher, which outside of Subban wasn't ripe with high draft picks or great prospects, but it was a great environment that followed through the next year.

You won't get any argument from me about Ottawa either, their drafting is outstanding. But to me, the biggest complaints I have against Timmins are 2003 and 2006, those drafts were unnaceptable.

 

[Chili]

Convenient excuse, like excluding 2007 because it favors Montréal. Go look at each player chosen by Ottawa in 2012, 2013 and 2014. Nothing there that will have a meaningful impact in the NHL except maybe the swedish goalie Marcus Hogberg. Lazar is a bust. So you can say it's too early, for some teams it is, but for Ottawa it's not. These are three bad years because Dorion had half of his top-60 picks taken away from him. Same as for Timmins in 2008-2011.

You feel that the Habs have drafted as well as the Sens.

I agree to disagree. (without putting down yours or anyone elses opinion).

 

[scrubadam]

It's a combination, that's what most posters are saying. Great development is useless without good picks, and the opposite applies as well. You also need actual draft picks to maximize your chance of getting good players, which means either keeping them or adding them through trades.

If you're getting the kind of coaching that's been going on in Hamilton, then you'll obviously run into huge development problems with your prospects. You don't need to look far to see how bad development can ruin even the best prospects, just look at the Oilers. They needed to fire their whole management team and draft McDavid to turn things around. Before anyone talks about the quality of picks you need to have a good AHL team, I'll just point out Hamilton during Boucher, which outside of Subban wasn't ripe with high draft picks or great prospects, but it was a great environment that followed through the next year.

You won't get any argument from me about Ottawa either, their drafting is outstanding. But to me, the biggest complaints I have against Timmins are 2003 and 2006, those drafts were unnaceptable.

I agree and we can get rid of Sly I actually think he will be gone before the team goes to laval.

And to me 08-11 are my biggest complaint because the lack of depth hurt us when TT set up the team with Max/Price/PK/AG.

All we can hope is that the 2013 and on drafts turn out a lot better. Not like MB is going to let him go he continuously promotes him so I hope that he can return to his earlier form.

 

[euhchepas]

Such as?

Ottawa has drafted better than us since 07. TT's biggest fish is Max and Dorion can't match that. EK is better than PK+McD combined and will have double to quadruaple the Norrises of those 2 combined.

He drafted like 5 20G scorers. You wouldn't want a couple of 20 Goal guys on the habs right now? Everyone is disappointed we didn't add scoring at the TDL but MB couldn't because prices were too high. If we had Stone/Hoffman/Smith/Dzingle/Sifverberg we wouldn't need to add scoring or we could trade one of those guys.

nope

ottawa drafted 5 20 goalscorers and 3 nhl defenseman since 2007

montreal drafted 3 20 goalscorer (4 with lehkonen who will surely be one) and 4 nhl defenseman

that's not a big difference and Ottawa has higher picks almost every year.

 

[jfm133]

You feel that the Habs have drafted as well as the Sens.

I agree to disagree. (without putting down yours or anyone elses opinion).

Look at the lists of players. For me it's similar but still a win for Montréal in the draft. Don't count the trades. But the goal was not to show the superiority of Timmins, just to show that he is right there with a good team in the draft with similar quantity and quality of picks. That both had great years and bad years and that the main factor in the bad years was missing half of the top-60 picks in those years.


Fucale-Lehner

Subban-Karlson
McDonagh-Ceci
Beaulieu-Weircioch
Weber-Wideman
Sergachev-Chabot
Juulsen-Chlapik



Pacioretty-Zibanejad
Galchenyuk-Silfverberg
Gallagher-Stone
Lekhonen-Hoffman
Andrighetto-Smith
Hudon-Pageau
*****-Dzingel
Scherbak-White
McCarron-Brown
DeLaRose-Dahlen

 

[habfaninvictoria]

How much of this is drafting and our junior scouting, and how much is our player development. We complain about not getting the superstuds in the draft because we never truly suck enough, but Chicago consistently has lower picks than yet they somehow consistently graduate NHL calibre top6 players far faster and in far greater numbers than we do. Anaheim has Dmen in their farm system that could easily play on our team and make a difference.

Is this drafting? AHL development? An issue with the organization and how we promote them to the big club. McCarron and Scherbak are late 1st round picks and ones I would hope would be up playing on the 3rd line more regularly now. Danault is the Chicago comparable, drafted the year before McCarron. I think getting him was a steal, but in terms of development he was (last year) miles ahead of McCarron is this year, which is something I would attribute to the Chicago system not ours. There is no chance I could look into a crystal ball and see McCarron pulling down Danaults responsibilities this time next year.

If the habs are serious about contending then we should be hiring the best available coaches for the AHL team, not more nepotism. I don't see top end talent ever being available to build a core around. There will always be a bidding war and overpayment....

 

[scrubadam]

Look at the lists of players. For me it's similar but still a win for Montréal in the draft. Don't count the trades. But the goal was not to show the superiority of Timmins, just to show that he is right there with a good team in the draft with similar quantity and quality of picks. That both had great years and bad years and that the main factor in the bad years was missing half of the top-60 picks in those years.


Fucale-Lehner

Subban-Karlson
McDonagh-Ceci
Beaulieu-Weircioch
Weber-Wideman
Sergachev-Chabot
Juulsen-Chlapik



Pacioretty-Zibanejad
Galchenyuk-Silfverberg
Gallagher-Stone
Lekhonen-Hoffman
Andrighetto-Smith
Hudon-Pageau
*****-Dzingel
Scherbak-White
McCarron-Brown
DeLaRose-Dahlen

Don't see how you can say its a win for MTL. Ottawa hasn't drafted a forward as good as Max but outside of that its a landslide for Ottawa. I mean stone/hoffman/Smith/Dzingle/Zinbijad/Silverberg thats an entire top 6 of 20 goals scorers right there. Add in Pageau who is a great 3rd/4th liner and had 19 G last year.

EK is worth PK+McD combined. EK has double their Norisses combined and will probably add a 3rd or 4th while I doubt either of those guys win another Norris.

Lehner is way better than Fucale probably ever will be.

It comes down to TT had a great 07 and since then not much while Ottawa added 5 20 goal scorers and a potential 6th in Pageau. Ottawa didn't have a 3rd or even top 5 (Z was 6th OVA) while TT had AG.

Either way Ottawa isn't a cup contending team and have been worse than the habs for the past 5/6 years. Again for a team that has lacked scoring and been looking for a C TT has a knack for missing out on scoring forwards and Centers. TT is really lucky Gainey traded Rivet and got Timmins his Max pick.

Anyways useless debate. Some fans are happy with the work TT has done mainly because of his 07 draft and others aren't. TT isn't going anywhere so all we can do is hope that his picks turn out because if 12/14/15/16 is all busts the habs are going to be in big trouble.

 

[le_sean]

Ottawa also drafted Rundblad who they traded to get Turris, a very good centre.

Ottawa isn't a contender because they don't spend to the cap. To me the drafting between Montreal and Ottawa is not comparable, they are much better. Especially from 2008 on.

 

[Sorinth]

Ottawa also drafted Rundblad who they traded to get Turris, a very good centre.

Ottawa isn't a contender because they don't spend to the cap. To me the drafting between Montreal and Ottawa is not comparable, they are much better. Especially from 2008 on.

Actually St. Louis drafted Runblad, Ottawa traded their 1st round pick to get him. That pick was used to draft Tarasenko.

As for Ottawa's drafting, if we had made those picks there would be tons of hate. From 2007-2013 they seem to have five 1st round busts with 8 picks. Considering 2 of those 8 picks were top-10 there would be a huge amount of hate if we had done the same.

I think we would also see a ton of the same criticism that used to be levelled at Timmins, which was he was great at finding NHLers but can't get elite talent. Besides Karlsson, they have a bunch of good but not great players.

I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't take Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty, and Galchenyuk over Karlsson, Zibanajed, Stone, Hoffman. It's not even close, and just adding a bunch of decent but not great NHLers like Smith, Weircoch, Ceci is never going to be enough to overcome that talent gap, especially since we would also still have Gallagher, Beaulieu.

 

[Whitesnake]

Actually St. Louis drafted Runblad, Ottawa traded their 1st round pick to get him. That pick was used to draft Tarasenko.

As for Ottawa's drafting, if we had made those picks there would be tons of hate. From 2007-2013 they seem to have five 1st round busts with 8 picks. Considering 2 of those 8 picks were top-10 there would be a huge amount of hate if we had done the same.

I think we would also see a ton of the same criticism that used to be levelled at Timmins, which was he was great at finding NHLers but can't get elite talent. Besides Karlsson, they have a bunch of good but not great players.

I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't take Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty, and Galchenyuk over Karlsson, Zibanajed, Stone, Hoffman. It's not even close, and just adding a bunch of decent but not great NHLers like Smith, Weircoch, Ceci is never going to be enough to overcome that talent gap, especially since we would also still have Gallagher, Beaulieu.

Not a big fan of the Sens drafting based on what you just said yet...how the heck do you come out with ''not even close''???? Karlsson, top 2 best offensive d-man in the league and 2 60-point guys and 1 50-point player?

And his point was mostly about 2008 and up...something you don't want to talk about. Somehow, we could easily say that Timmins was probably THE best head scout before 2007 but are not allowed to say that he struggled more from 2008. Still not sure why we can't do that. As nobody said that because he struggles more since 2008, that it totally erased what he did before and it then means that he was never good to begin with. Nobody says that. Just talking about trends here. Which we use for every other job in the NHL. But somehow can't use it for him.

 

[le_sean]

Actually St. Louis drafted Runblad, Ottawa traded their 1st round pick to get him. That pick was used to draft Tarasenko.

As for Ottawa's drafting, if we had made those picks there would be tons of hate. From 2007-2013 they seem to have five 1st round busts with 8 picks. Considering 2 of those 8 picks were top-10 there would be a huge amount of hate if we had done the same.

I think we would also see a ton of the same criticism that used to be levelled at Timmins, which was he was great at finding NHLers but can't get elite talent. Besides Karlsson, they have a bunch of good but not great players.

I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't take Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty, and Galchenyuk over Karlsson, Zibanajed, Stone, Hoffman. It's not even close, and just adding a bunch of decent but not great NHLers like Smith, Weircoch, Ceci is never going to be enough to overcome that talent gap, especially since we would also still have Gallagher, Beaulieu.

Oh yes you're right about Rundblad. My mistake.

Again, no one argues about the 2007 draft. Amazing. But that's 10 years ago. Other than like 3 players, it's a whole lot of nothing since then.

 

[montreal]

18 players appeared in a game for the Habs this year that were either drafted by Timmins or signed as undrafted FA's out of the NCAA/CHL. And that's with the Habs being in 1st place all year long. 24 if you count other teams and perhaps soon to be 25 if Kristo keeps up his production for the Canes minor league team.

 

[jfm133]

EK is worth PK+McD combined. EK has double their Norisses combined and will probably add a 3rd or 4th while I doubt either of those guys win another Norris.

You really wanted to destroy the little credibility you had? It's done. Bravo champion!

 

[Sorinth]

Not a big fan of the Sens drafting based on what you just said yet...how the heck do you come out with ''not even close''???? Karlsson, top 2 best offensive d-man in the league and 2 60-point guys and 1 50-point player?

And his point was mostly about 2008 and up...something you don't want to talk about. Somehow, we could easily say that Timmins was probably THE best head scout before 2007 but are not allowed to say that he struggled more from 2008. Still not sure why we can't do that. As nobody said that because he struggles more since 2008, that it totally erased what he did before and it then means that he was never good to begin with. Nobody says that. Just talking about trends here. Which we use for every other job in the NHL. But somehow can't use it for him.

Someone had mentioned the Ottawa head scout was hired prior to the 2007 draft. That's why I chose that date. It wouldn't be fair to the Ottawa scout if we included prior years.

Karlsson is the best player out of all the players mentioned, but I don't think Subban is that far off. We are talking about a top-5 defenceman league wide vs a top-10 one.

Outside of Karlsson, would you trade any one of our players for one of theirs in a 1-1 deal? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

Oh yes you're right about Rundblad. My mistake.

Again, no one argues about the 2007 draft. Amazing. But that's 10 years ago. Other than like 3 players, it's a whole lot of nothing since then.

Well if hitting 3 home runs 10 years ago doesn't matter that much, why does striking out 8 years ago matter?

I don't see how 10 years ago is not relevant but 8-9 years ago is.

 

[scrubadam]

You really wanted to destroy the little credibility you had? It's done. Bravo champion!

You can have a different opinion but I don't think its that odd that someone would prefer the 2 time Norris winning D who is probably the best Offensive D in the game in the past 5 years.

EK has double the Norris of those 2 combined, at the end of their respective careers how high will that number go? triple? Quadruple? I think EK has at least 1 more Norris in him probably 2.

Someone had mentioned the Ottawa head scout was hired prior to the 2007 draft. That's why I chose that date. It would be fair to the Ottawa scout if we included prior years.

Karlsson is the best player out of all the players mentioned, but I don't think Subban is that far off. We are talking about a top-5 defenceman league wide vs a top-10 one.

Outside of Karlsson, would you trade any one of our players for one of theirs in a 1-1 deal? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

The only one I wouldn't trade is Max. I would trade Galley/Beau for Ottawas drafts since 08 which include Stone/Hoffman/Dzingle/Smith/Silverberg all 20 G scoreres.

AG shouldn't count as he was 3rd OVA. Give Ottawa 3OVA in 2011 and they have Huberdeau instead of Z. AG for JH its a toss up to me you can go either way.

 

[Sorinth]

The only one I wouldn't trade is Max. I would trade Galley/Beau for Ottawas drafts since 08 which include Stone/Hoffman/Dzingle/Smith/Silverberg all 20 G scoreres.

AG shouldn't count as he was 3rd OVA. Give Ottawa 3OVA in 2011 and they have Huberdeau instead of Z. AG for JH its a toss up to me you can go either way.

There's just so much fail in such a small post.

Gally and Beaulieu weren't listed, it's about a player for player trade, not a player for a draft or a draft for a draft. Dzingle has 15 goals in his entire career, only 12 this year. And really a 3rd overall shouldn't count but a 6th overall does.

 

[scrubadam]

There's just so much fail in such a small post.

Gally and Beaulieu weren't listed, it's about a player for player trade, not a player for a draft or a draft for a draft. Dzingle has 15 goals in his entire career, only 12 this year. And really a 3rd overall shouldn't count but a 6th overall does.

There are too many rules to this post then. I look at the drafts and outside of 07 and TT's 3 OVA there isn't anything I like better in MTL's drafts. I defintily prefer all of Ottawa's 20 goal scorers over Galley and Beau.

And their is a big difference between 6th OVA and 3rd OVA. Ottawa took Z at 6 but at 3 Huburdeau was available. Should we call Pens scout great for Drafting Crosby and Malkin at the 1 and 2 spots?

Dzingle has 12 goals this year and 29 points. Probably finishes with 15 and 35.

Outside of being a huge PK or Habs homer I don't see how you can say Montreals drafts have been better. And IMHO EK is better than anything TT drafted in that time frame edging Max out by a hair.

But keep wondering why habs need to trade the farm for a top 6 or why MB has difficutly adding scoring depth. Adding Smith/Stone/Hoffman/Silverberg would given the team 4 20 G scorers at the cost of 1 in Galley. Dzingle/Pageau are 15-20 G guys more scoring depth.

Remove 07 and its a lot worse for TT.

But hey if you like the guys drafted by TT outside of Max/PK then thats your opinion I can call it fail as well but I would prefer to just say we have different opinions and views. Just keep it in mind when complaining about lack of scoring.

 

[ppil]

So Timmins is bad because Ottawa drafted slightly better over the last few years (or extremely better if you include the EK home run but exclude Subban, McD and Pacs home run because...).

All-in-all, Timmins has a pretty good average at the bat, probably top tier in the league. 2008-2011 was bad, but he didn't have much to work with with many 2nd and 3rd draft pick traded away, and 1 pick to please the fans at the draft in Montreal (he probably had the choice between Leblanc, Paradis, Caron or Despres...).

It's crazy how too much exposure to a team is driving a lot of bias... "Chicago seems to always draft top 6 players" - Unless you count guys like Shaw, the only one that would be a consistent top 6 player since they drafted Kane would be Saad, but we all think they are great at drafting because they are always able to find decent players either via draft picks/trade/free agent to play with Kane/Toews/Hossa. Most team that are considered good at drafting have this reputation because of a very few home run (if there's more than 1...), and looking at the rest of their picks it is not any better than other teams, so I fail to see how you can say that the home run is because of quality scouting and not just luck...

Also, looking at our draft position over the last ~10 years, the only real #1C we would have missed would be O'Reilly (the Leblanc year...), so not to defend Timmins, but I wouldn't blame our biggest flaw on him.

 

[Andrei79]

There's just so much fail in such a small post.

Gally and Beaulieu weren't listed, it's about a player for player trade, not a player for a draft or a draft for a draft. Dzingle has 15 goals in his entire career, only 12 this year. And really a 3rd overall shouldn't count but a 6th overall does.

That's a great point. If Timmins had picked Zibanejad over Scheifele, we wouldn't hear the end of it here. Or Griffin Reinhart over Galchenyuk (actually, pretty much any other top 10 pick that year).

 

[ECWHSWI]

You can have a different opinion but I don't think its that odd that someone would prefer the 2 time Norris winning D who is probably the best Offensive D in the game in the past 5 years.

EK has double the Norris of those 2 combined, at the end of their respective careers how high will that number go? triple? Quadruple? I think EK has at least 1 more Norris in him probably 2.

he has one more...


it's like saying the guy with 2 goals has 2X the number of goals that the guy with 1 goal... it's true, but it's clearly said in a way to make it look way better/worse than it really is... you know.

 

[scrubadam]

So Timmins is bad because Ottawa drafted slightly better over the last few years (or extremely better if you include the EK home run but exclude Subban, McD and Pacs home run because...).

All-in-all, Timmins has a pretty good average at the bat, probably top tier in the league. 2008-2011 was bad, but he didn't have much to work with with many 2nd and 3rd draft pick traded away, and 1 pick to please the fans at the draft in Montreal (he probably had the choice between Leblanc, Paradis, Caron or Despres...).

It's crazy how too much exposure to a team is driving a lot of bias... "Chicago seems to always draft top 6 players" - Unless you count guys like Shaw, the only one that would be a consistent top 6 player since they drafted Kane would be Saad, but we all think they are great at drafting because they are always able to find decent players either via draft picks/trade/free agent to play with Kane/Toews/Hossa. Most team that are considered good at drafting have this reputation because of a very few home run (if there's more than 1...), and looking at the rest of their picks it is not any better than other teams, so I fail to see how you can say that the home run is because of quality scouting and not just luck...

Also, looking at our draft position over the last ~10 years, the only real #1C we would have missed would be O'Reilly (the Leblanc year...), so not to defend Timmins, but I wouldn't blame our biggest flaw on him.

Over 14 years we missed Zajac/Giroux/Kopitar/M.Johanssen/Kuzentzov/Coyle/Nelson. They aren't all 1C's but they are all top 6 Centers with decent size. I posted before but for a team that has been looking for a C forever they sure seem to miss them in the draft. And thats just the first round. If we looked at the 2nd round we could probably add 5 or more names to that list.

And I don't need to put a label on TT. I can say his drafts since 07 have been underwhelming. Someone compared him to Ottawa and its clear Ottawa did better excluding 07, which TT ALMOST makes up for with his EK pick. I still give Max to TT as he is the best out of the bunch but I would take EK over PK+McD.

Ottawa snagged like 5 20 G scoreres and 2 15 G scoreres while TT grabbed Galley and AG with the 3 OVA pick. Whats more impressive Galley+Beau or Hofman/Stone/Silverberg/Dzingle/Pageau/Smith ?

Not to mention Lehner. Which goalie since Price has TT drafted that will come close to Lehner? Massian? Fucale?

And its not like Ottawa is the gold standard here. Being slightly worse than Ottawa should say a lot about the drafts we have had.

he has one more...


it's like saying the guy with 2 goals has 2X the number of goals that the guy with 1 goal... it's true, but it's clearly said in a way to make it look way better/worse than it really is... you know.

I said something that is true yet you still call it out. And at the end of the day EK probably adds another Norris maybe even a 4th before his career is done.

How many Norris do you think PK+McD win by the time their careers is done? I doubt they even get 1 more each.

 

[Whitesnake]

Someone had mentioned the Ottawa head scout was hired prior to the 2007 draft. That's why I chose that date. It would be fair to the Ottawa scout if we included prior years.

Karlsson is the best player out of all the players mentioned, but I don't think Subban is that far off. We are talking about a top-5 defenceman league wide vs a top-10 one.

Outside of Karlsson, would you trade any one of our players for one of theirs in a 1-1 deal? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

The great part about this is that we go from Timmins is the best to it's close with Ottawa....an Ottawa who ****ed up almonst EVERY SINGLE one of their 1st rounders since 2003. Thank god for Karlsson and surely their 2015 and 2016 draft.

So, just before people claims how Timmins is DA best.....and in the end it's close with a bad Ottawa scouting team....maybe we should refrain ourselves from claims that shouldn't be. Timmins is good. But maybe he shoudln't be exempt from criticisms because what he had mostly done 10 years ago . Can he improve it with the past 2 drafts? Sure he can. And the evaluation WILL change. Not sure why people can't accept that.

 

[ginomini]

People who say they would take EK before Subban + McDonagh are completely off track.

Ask any GM in the league what they would take, Ovechkin or Kane + Toews ?


Mmhh duh every one would take Ovechkin he has 6 times more Maurice Richard Trophy ...

You don't win a Stanley Cup with one star. It's pretty clear that a team with Subban AND McDo would have the upper hand vs a team with only Karlsson (if the rest of the defense would be equal).


That said, Ottawa have clearly drafted a little better in the last 10 years, but it is pretty pointless to argue on that point. Both teams haven't drafted well enough to be cup contenders. The both lack star talent up front. Both teams have been average, not terrible has a lot here are saying here.

Timmins and Dorion aren't terrible head scouts, but they haven't been the bests either in the last 10 years and thats all.