Trevor Timmins Part II

[OnTheRun]

MAYBE Timmins is the problem, maybe.

But he is absolutely not the first one that need to go, Timmins have a track record of success with us and before us.

The guys in charge of our prospects, in St. John's, have either no track record at all or a track record of failures. They are the one who NEED to be jettisoned first, because they did jack **** at any given point of their career.

Do that first (should have been done a long time ago btw), then Timmins will need to be revisited if results don't improve.

 

[scrubadam]

It's hard to take someone serious that thinks development is a cop out. You blame Timmins but then turnaround and say you don't watch the AHL so you don't even know what Lefebvre is doing. Don't you think that limits your opinion right off the bat?

Timmins failed picks are more to do with being realistic then development. Every scout is going to have a long list of misses, there's a reason why so many prospects don't make it outside top 10/20 picks. But if you watched the job that Lefebvre, you might look at the situation differently. How he's handled Scherbak, Leblanc and others, just seems like a very poor way to handle your top prospects. I've said over and over and over and over that the blame for Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu fall on many not just Timmins, not just Lefebvre, but MANY. That said the moves Lefebvre makes imo doesn't help matters and he very much shares the blame for some of these guys not panning out. Others are going to peak at 18/19/20. Anyone that follows the draft knows this just as they know most picks won't pan out. That's why the job Timmins has done is impressive, he's been one of the top scouts because he can find talent. Yes he's made mistakes, he's had some bad picks but that should be expected.

As for Pac, Guy Boucher imo is the best coach we have had in the AHL. But my point was that Pac was getting it done in the NCAA but turned pro early after just 1 season so perhaps he wasn't ready to turn pro and should have stayed for 1 more year under one of the best coaches in the NCAA (and a former Hab)

McDonagh wasn't struggling at Wisconsin, he was a true Freshman and was a top 3 D at Wisconsin. I know they wanted more out of him but while he wasn't racking up the points he played a good physical and defensive game on a stacked blueline.

But it's not a cop not, it's crazy to me that you can look back and say Timmins did a great job up to '07 and then when all the 1st round picks after that play for the same coach in the AHL and all struggle, it doesn't occur to you that the problem is more the coach then the guy that was doing a great job but all the sudden forgot how. It's like you won't listen to reason and just want say it's Timmins fault period even though he did great, one day he stopped doing great for whatever reason.

I am ready to lump Sly in on it to for the failures but its not only him, and it starts with the players selected. So get Sly out of there bring in someone else, but TT is still the one providing the amunition.

Beau had one season under Sly where he was .5 PPG not bad for a D. Ghetto in 3 seasons under Sly has produced 40 pts in 60 games approx again pretty good. Hudon is a 50 pt player in the AHL again pretty good IMHO. SCherback as 32 pts in 48 games this year again I think pretty good. Even Mac has done decent for a guy who looks like a 4th or 3rd liner in the NHL. So the players under him have had some decent AHL seasons he must be doing something right. But get rid of him for all I care I am sure he will be fired before the team moves to Laval.

The thing is you do the opposite of me where the picks that pan out its because of TT, but the ones that fail well TT did a good job selecting them but they were ruined by someone else. I don't see how thats fair. If Leblanc/Tinordi/Beau aren't on TT well like I said Max/PK/McD aren't on TT either it was all the development of NYR and Boucher.

In the end TT is the best, he is the worst his label doesn't matter, what matters is the talent he is supplying the team and its been lacking for almost a decade. If he was a bit more on the ball and chose the player taken 1 or 2 spots after his he wouldn't have so many failures and the habs would be in a better spot.

Oh well another 5 years to evalute his drafts hopefully something will come out of 13 and on. We can already see 12 has got the habs nothing outside of his gifted 3 OVA. Lucky enough CBJ took Murray or we would have no AG. Hudon is his great hope but I bet the kid never plays a full season in MTL.

 

[montreal]

I am ready to lump Sly in on it to for the failures but its not only him, and it starts with the players selected. So get Sly out of there bring in someone else, but TT is still the one providing the amunition.

Beau had one season under Sly where he was .5 PPG not bad for a D. Ghetto in 3 seasons under Sly has produced 40 pts in 60 games approx again pretty good. Hudon is a 50 pt player in the AHL again pretty good IMHO. SCherback as 32 pts in 48 games this year again I think pretty good. Even Mac has done decent for a guy who looks like a 4th or 3rd liner in the NHL. So the players under him have had some decent AHL seasons he must be doing something right. But get rid of him for all I care I am sure he will be fired before the team moves to Laval.

The thing is you do the opposite of me where the picks that pan out its because of TT, but the ones that fail well TT did a good job selecting them but they were ruined by someone else. I don't see how thats fair. If Leblanc/Tinordi/Beau aren't on TT well like I said Max/PK/McD aren't on TT either it was all the development of NYR and Boucher.

In the end TT is the best, he is the worst his label doesn't matter, what matters is the talent he is supplying the team and its been lacking for almost a decade. If he was a bit more on the ball and chose the player taken 1 or 2 spots after his he wouldn't have so many failures and the habs would be in a better spot.

Oh well another 5 years to evalute his drafts hopefully something will come out of 13 and on. We can already see 12 has got the habs nothing outside of his gifted 3 OVA. Lucky enough CBJ took Murray or we would have no AG. Hudon is his great hope but I bet the kid never plays a full season in MTL.

I clearly stated that Leblanc, Tinordi there are MANY to blame. Timmins, Lefebvre, Management and the players themselves.

Since the AHL is a development league, the AHL coaching staff is there to get the players ready for the NHL, something they don't seem to do that well of a job at.

Hudon just needs to get quicker, he could be one of the few wins for Lefebvre.

 

[jfm133]

OK. We cannot speak about 2012-2016. So you will continue to bash Timmins based on 2008-2011, where he add only half of his top-60 picks. So easy and dishonest. That being said you know 2012-2016 will be much better.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

MAYBE Timmins is the problem, maybe.

He's not.

 

[jfm133]

Pierre Dorion was named head scout of Ottawa Senators for the 2007 draft. After drafting Erik Karlson he was considered a genius. Ottawa compares very well with Montréal over that period. Same number of picks and similar overall quality of picks, even though Ottawa had one more first rounder and two more second rounder. Would you change what Ottawa got for what Timmins gave us? Between brackets are unproven but promising players.



Ottawa 65 picks

Round 1: 11 Karlson, Zibanejad, Ceci, (Chabot, White, Brown)

Round 2: 9 Weircioch, Silfverberg, Lehner (Chlapik, Dahlen)

Round 3: 7 Smith. (Hogberg)

Round 4: 13 Wideman, Pageau

Round 5: 7 Hoffman

Round 6: 8 Stone

Round 7: 10 Dzingel


Montréal 65 picks:

Round 1: 10 McDonagh, Pacioretty, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, (McCarron,

Scherbak, Juulsen, Sergachev)

Round 2: 7 Subban, Lekhonen, (DeLaRose, Fucale)

Round 3: 11 Weber, (Andrighetto, Bitten)

Round 4: 10 (Mete)

Round 5: 10 Gallagher, (Hudon)

Round 6: 8

Round 7: 9

 

[scrubadam]

Pierre Dorion was named head scout of Ottawa Senators for the 2007 draft. After drafting Erik Karlson he was considered a genius. Ottawa compares very well with Montréal over that period. Same number of picks and similar overall quality of picks, even though Ottawa had one more first rounder and two more second rounder. Would you change what Ottawa got for what Timmins gave us? Between brackets are unproven but promising players.



Ottawa 65 picks

Round 1: 11 Karlson, Zibanejad, Ceci, (Chabot, White, Brown)

Round 2: 9 Weircioch, Silfverberg, Lehner (Chlapik, Dahlen)

Round 3: 7 Smith. (Hogberg)

Round 4: 13 Wideman, Pageau

Round 5: 7 Hoffman

Round 6: 8 Stone

Round 7: 10 Dzingel


Montréal 65 picks:

Round 1: 10 McDonagh, Pacioretty, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, (McCarron,

Scherbak, Juulsen, Sergachev)

Round 2: 7 Subban, Lekhonen, (DeLaRose, Fucale)

Round 3: 11 Weber, (Andrighetto, Bitten)

Round 4: 10 (Mete)

Round 5: 10 Gallagher, (Hudon)

Round 6: 8

Round 7: 9

I would take almost all of OTT picks. Pageau, Hoffman, Stone over anything we have except for basically Max/PK. But then you have Karlsson to cancel out PK. So Max is really the only player. McD was traded so maybe I take him over a guy like Silfverberg who Ottawa traded as well.

 

[jfm133]

I would take almost all of OTT picks. Pageau, Hoffman, Stone over anything we have except for basically Max/PK. But then you have Karlsson to cancel out PK. So Max is really the only player. McD was traded so maybe I take him over a guy like Silfverberg who Ottawa traded as well.

Seriously? These guys over McDonagh and Galchenyuk. Sure... Not serious. This example shows very well that good scouts make big mistakes. It shows that average over the long run is the key. It also shows that GM can sometimes destroy the scout's good work (McDonagh, Silfverberg, Zibanejad)

Ottawa did not have a slump in consecutive years like 2008-2011 for the Habs, but look at 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013 and 2014. Only two players in five years, Ceci and Stone. Similar to Beaulieu and Gallagher. One D in mid first round, and a forward in late rounds. That's it. The only difference is that Ottawa's bad years were not in a row, and it is five bad years not four. Also, other similaritiy, Ottawa in their five bad years only had 5 top-60 picks out of a normal ten. Pretty similar to Montréal four out of eight in 2008-2011.

 

[Habs100]

I would take almost all of OTT picks. Pageau, Hoffman, Stone over anything we have except for basically Max/PK. But then you have Karlsson to cancel out PK. So Max is really the only player. McD was traded so maybe I take him over a guy like Silfverberg who Ottawa traded as well.

MAYBE you take McDonagh over Silverberg???? You just lost all credibility.

 

[Chili]

From 2008 to 2011 by my count there are 16 Sens draft picks in the NHL right now (most of any team).

Closest would be Isles (13), Ducks (13), Kings (12)

I'll take the Sens drafting over most teams.

 

[jfm133]

I'll take the Sens drafting over most teams.

Maybe, but if true Montréal is just as good. Again look at 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014. This is worst than Habs 2008-2011. Only difference is that there is only three years in a row instead of four, and it is five bad years insted of four.

 

[Chili]

Maybe, but if true Montréal is just as good. Again look at 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014. This is worst than Habs 2008-2011. Only difference is that there is only three years in a row instead of four, and it is five bad years insted of four.

I'm not including 2012 to 2016 because the results are not definitive in my opinion and 16 vs 2 or 16 vs 6 is the same choice for me.

 

[jfm133]

I'm not including 2012 to 2016 because the results are not definitive in my opinion and 16 vs 2 or 16 vs 6 is the same choice for me.

Convenient excuse, like excluding 2007 because it favors Montréal. Go look at each player chosen by Ottawa in 2012, 2013 and 2014. Nothing there that will have a meaningful impact in the NHL except maybe the swedish goalie Marcus Hogberg. Lazar is a bust. So you can say it's too early, for some teams it is, but for Ottawa it's not. These are three bad years because Dorion had half of his top-60 picks taken away from him. Same as for Timmins in 2008-2011.

 

[scrubadam]

Seriously? These guys over McDonagh and Galchenyuk. Sure... Not serious. This example shows very well that good scouts make big mistakes. It shows that average over the long run is the key. It also shows that GM can sometimes destroy the scout's good work (McDonagh, Silfverberg, Zibanejad)

Ottawa did not have a slump in consecutive years like 2008-2011 for the Habs, but look at 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013 and 2014. Only two players in five years, Ceci and Stone. Similar to Beaulieu and Gallagher. One D in mid first round, and a forward in late rounds. That's it. The only difference is that Ottawa's bad years were not in a row, and it is five bad years not four. Also, other similaritiy, Ottawa in their five bad years only had 5 top-60 picks out of a normal ten. Pretty similar to Montréal four out of eight in 2008-2011.

I don't count AG becauase he was a top 3 pick and Ottawa didn't have any top 3 picks. McD never played for habs so I tried to find a similar player on Ottawa thats why I compared him to Silverberg and all we got for McD was Gomez(Gainey )

To me it comes down to TT's 07 draft vs EK. The rest is in favor of Ottawa. Smith/Dzingel/Pageau/Hoffman/Stone/Silverberg/Zinjabed you can build a pretty decent top 6. EK as your 1 D and Ceci/Weircoch/Borowski/Wideman can fill out you 4/5/6/7 D.

Lets see what happens to Chabot and Brown. Chabot seems ahead of Julsen to me but we don't know how either's games will translate in the NHL. Love Serge as a talent but Brown is a 6'6 C. Will he turn into that big top 2 C the habs have been looking for for the past 14 years?

Again take out 07 and your aren't left with much. And should we really count Max for TT? It was Gainey who got him the pick and it was DD and Boucher that rescued Max from becoming a 3rd liner in the NHL and turned him into the scoring machine he is today.

And Ottawas off years the year before they were picking up like 3 or 4 NHL players. 08/09/11 Ottawa netted 12 players. How many NHLers did Timmins get the habs between 08-11? 2. How many forwards? 1. And we wonder why we have no forward depth. But easy to blame MB for not trading all his picks and handing out huge long term contracts to UFA's that we will regret later. Much easier to build a top 6 when you draft Silverberg/Zinabajad/Hoffman/Dzingle/Pageau/Smith/Stone over stiffs like Tinordi/Leblanc/Dieder/Dietz/Avitsn/Turnev/Conboy/Qualier etc...

 

[MrNasty]

Based on last year's world juniors, almost everyone... throw in Philly and Tampa as well.

And this is exactly why so many people on here have flawed arguments. Who participates in the world juniors has very very little bearing on how well they will be in 5 years. Not many players that play in the world juniors become stars let alone play in the NHL.

 

[Andrei79]

I don't count AG becauase he was a top 3 pick and Ottawa didn't have any top 3 picks. McD never played for habs so I tried to find a similar player on Ottawa thats why I compared him to Silverberg and all we got for McD was Gomez(Gainey )

To me it comes down to TT's 07 draft vs EK. The rest is in favor of Ottawa. Smith/Dzingel/Pageau/Hoffman/Stone/Silverberg/Zinjabed you can build a pretty decent top 6. EK as your 1 D and Ceci/Weircoch/Borowski/Wideman can fill out you 4/5/6/7 D.

Lets see what happens to Chabot and Brown. Chabot seems ahead of Julsen to me but we don't know how either's games will translate in the NHL. Love Serge as a talent but Brown is a 6'6 C. Will he turn into that big top 2 C the habs have been looking for for the past 14 years?

Again take out 07 and your aren't left with much. And should we really count Max for TT? It was Gainey who got him the pick and it was DD and Boucher that rescued Max from becoming a 3rd liner in the NHL and turned him into the scoring machine he is today.

And Ottawas off years the year before they were picking up like 3 or 4 NHL players. 08/09/11 Ottawa netted 12 players. How many NHLers did Timmins get the habs between 08-11? 2. How many forwards? 1. And we wonder why we have no forward depth. But easy to blame MB for not trading all his picks and handing out huge long term contracts to UFA's that we will regret later. Much easier to build a top 6 when you draft Silverberg/Zinabajad/Hoffman/Dzingle/Pageau/Smith/Stone over stiffs like Tinordi/Leblanc/Dieder/Dietz/Avitsn/Turnev/Conboy/Qualier etc...

It's mind numbing how contradictory these posts are.

On one hand, Galchenyuk counts as a player Bergevin added, and posters cherry pick his moves.

On the other hand, he doesn't count for Timmins, and neither does Pacioretty, because well, let's just invent some reasons, like development, even though development apparently isn't important ? Price doesn't count either I guess, he was a lottery pick. And McDonagh, well he was traded, so let's just compare him to another lesser traded player, because... uhhh... ?

I don't see any semblance of logic behind this, does anyone ?

 

[scrubadam]

It's mind numbing how contradictory these posts are.

On one hand, Galchenyuk counts as a player Bergevin added, and posters cherry pick his moves.

On the other hand, he doesn't count for Timmins, and neither does Pacioretty, because well, let's just invent some reasons, like development, even though development apparently isn't important ? Price doesn't count either I guess, he was a lottery pick. And McDonagh, well he was traded, so let's just compare him to another lesser traded player, because... uhhh... ?

I don't see any semblance of logic behind this, does anyone ?

Lol well ya i used the development excuse because its bandied about to explain TTs failings just like lack of draft picks. So it was meant to be an ironic statement. So if you want to count Max then dont blame development or lack of picks for the failures because it runs both ways.

And yes AG is a good olayer taken by TT but its a top 3 pick. Is the Pens scout a genius for grabbing malkin and crosby? Oilers for taking Mcdavid? Chi for towes and kane. If your drafting top 3 you are getting a good player. And i think we can all be honest and admit forsberg is the better player but he was taken 8 spots later so not really on TT.

But that xoesnt change the fact that Ottawa still drafted better. Ottawa is able to build nearly an entire top 9 with their picks and 75% of a defense with a 2 time and probably 3 or 4 time norris winner.

 

[Treb]

Lol well ya i used the development excuse because its bandied about to explain TTs failings just like lack of draft picks. So it was meant to be an ironic statement. So if you want to count Max then dont blame development or lack of picks for the failures because it runs both ways.

And yes AG is a good olayer taken by TT but its a top 3 pick. Is the Pens scout a genius for grabbing malkin and crosby? Oilers for taking Mcdavid? Chi for towes and kane. If your drafting top 3 you are getting a good player. And i think we can all be honest and admit forsberg is the better player but he was taken 8 spots later so not really on TT.

But that xoesnt change the fact that Ottawa still drafted better. Ottawa is able to build nearly an entire top 9 with their picks and 75% of a defense with a 2 time and probably 3 or 4 time norris winner.

Patches did not have the same development coaches than the 2009-2011 picks.

 

[Whitesnake]

OK. We cannot speak about 2012-2016. So you will continue to bash Timmins based on 2008-2011, where he add only half of his top-60 picks. So easy and dishonest. That being said you know 2012-2016 will be much better.

You can most definately talk about 2012. So Galchenyuk and maybe, a big maybe to Hudon. And you alreayd consider that great? Because of the easy pick that was Galchenyuk? Fine. I rarely hear people giving credit to the Hawks for Kane and Toews strangely. And if you want to add 2013 and give me the name of the guy in there that will most definately play a key role on this team, hopefully top 6 forward and/or top 4 D, the answer is a MAYBE Lehkonen.

But somehow, you prefer talking to how DLR is surely a NHL'er. So great, talk about 2012 and 2013 all you want, I,m more than willing to....but in what is the reality. Cleary you are going with quantity on top of quality and while you want me to say that Timmins has had the most players chosen since he,s there....who exactly did we trade from those insane picks that we should not and would have made us a better team? McDonagh. Who else? People love to say how it's Gainey and Co who ****ed up this team has Timmins did his share of the work and yet, there's no indicitation that aside from McDonagh, we screwed up what Timmins was able to get since 2003.

As far as KNOWING for sure that 2012 to 2016 will be much better....well I talked to you already about 2012 and 2013. As far as 2014 to 2016, Yeah, I think it will be better. You know what though....just like I thought 2012, like a lot of posterse in here, thought this was a dream draft. At the time, that's what we thought. So...yeah, we will have to wait a little as far as 2014 to 2016 if you don't mind.

Ottawa did not have a slump in consecutive years like 2008-2011 for the Habs, but look at 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013 and 2014. Only two players in five years, Ceci and Stone. Similar to Beaulieu and Gallagher. One D in mid first round, and a forward in late rounds. That's it. The only difference is that Ottawa's bad years were not in a row, and it is five bad years not four. Also, other similaritiy, Ottawa in their five bad years only had 5 top-60 picks out of a normal ten. Pretty similar to Montréal four out of eight in 2008-2011.

How can you add 2014 if we don,t add 2014 for Montreal? It's not looking good for them, but way too soon for Englund and even Perron. And you are clearly not following their farm team to NOT mention Ben Harpur as a possibility for the NHL at some point. And they had 4 picks in 2007 and 2010 which is 2 less than our 2008 and 2010. With their first pick in round 3 in one of those drafts.

 

[Habs]

And this is exactly why so many people on here have flawed arguments. Who participates in the world juniors has very very little bearing on how well they will be in 5 years. Not many players that play in the world juniors become stars let alone play in the NHL.

The world juniors are , where you show off your best prospects your team drafting skills and much more. It is the crème de la crème, and it is indeed a good indicator of your team drafting abilities.

Also I never said WJ players become stars, who ever said that or are you just the guy that makes up things and takes it to the extreme? Impact, and franchise players, are normally a sure bet for the World Junior teams, it is a rare event to suggest otherwise.

 

[24rings]

I don't count AG becauase he was a top 3 pick and Ottawa didn't have any top 3 picks. McD never played for habs so I tried to find a similar player on Ottawa thats why I compared him to Silverberg and all we got for McD was Gomez(Gainey )

To me it comes down to TT's 07 draft vs EK. The rest is in favor of Ottawa. Smith/Dzingel/Pageau/Hoffman/Stone/Silverberg/Zinjabed you can build a pretty decent top 6. EK as your 1 D and Ceci/Weircoch/Borowski/Wideman can fill out you 4/5/6/7 D.

Lets see what happens to Chabot and Brown. Chabot seems ahead of Julsen to me but we don't know how either's games will translate in the NHL. Love Serge as a talent but Brown is a 6'6 C. Will he turn into that big top 2 C the habs have been looking for for the past 14 years?

Again take out 07 and your aren't left with much. And should we really count Max for TT? It was Gainey who got him the pick and it was DD and Boucher that rescued Max from becoming a 3rd liner in the NHL and turned him into the scoring machine he is today.

And Ottawas off years the year before they were picking up like 3 or 4 NHL players. 08/09/11 Ottawa netted 12 players. How many NHLers did Timmins get the habs between 08-11? 2. How many forwards? 1. And we wonder why we have no forward depth. But easy to blame MB for not trading all his picks and handing out huge long term contracts to UFA's that we will regret later. Much easier to build a top 6 when you draft Silverberg/Zinabajad/Hoffman/Dzingle/Pageau/Smith/Stone over stiffs like Tinordi/Leblanc/Dieder/Dietz/Avitsn/Turnev/Conboy/Qualier etc...

So much wrong with this

 

[scrubadam]

Patches did not have the same development coaches than the 2009-2011 picks.

And the point? If Sly ruined anyone then we can just go and say that Boucher made Max then no? So why would we credit TT for his great 07 when Boucher (and DD to a lesser extent) made Max and the Rangers system made McD?

Or is only the picks that bust that its on "development" and the picks that make it its because TT forsaw they would be great?

 

[Whitesnake]

And the point? If Sly ruined anyone then we can just go and say that Boucher made Max then no? So why would we credit TT for his great 07 when Boucher (and DD to a lesser extent) made Max and the Rangers system made McD?

Or is only the picks that bust that its on "development" and the picks that make it its because TT forsaw they would be great?

I'm all for some revisionist analysis....but you still have to give the guy what he did. Pacioretty was drafted in the 1st round. He had to believe there was some offensive to his game. I mean, if the idea is to judge who worked and who didn't, and put it almost all on the head scout...well if he gets the bad, he gets the good too. 'Cause after that, it's incredibly subjective.

 

[scrubadam]

How can you add 2014 if we don,t add 2014 for Montreal? It's not looking good for them, but way too soon for Englund and even Perron. And you are clearly not following their farm team to NOT mention Ben Harpur as a possibility for the NHL at some point. And they had 4 picks in 2007 and 2010 which is 2 less than our 2008 and 2010. With their first pick in round 3 in one of those drafts.

And 2010 they snagged Stone. With 4 picks Dorion got a top 6 25+ goal scorer. 07 sucked but 08 made up for it with EK and Smith a 20+ G scorer. Add in Wericoch and Boroweicki 2 bottom pair D's. Thos 2 drafts got the Sens 2 20G scoers a multi time winning Norris D who will probably finish his career with 3 or 4 Norrises and 2 bottom pair D. Followed up by 09 where they got Lehner who would of been better than Condon last year, Silfverberg another 20G scorer, Wideman another bottom pair D and Hoffman another 25G scorer. 2011 also brought in for Ottawa Zibanjad a big C, PAgeau a great bottom 6, and Dzingle a guy who will probably get 20G.

How many 20G scorers is that for Dorian over those 4 drafts? Which goalie did TT draft since Price that is better than Lehner? Massian? Fucale? I take EK over McD and PK combined. EK will finish his career with double if not triple the Noris of those 2 combined. If we would of fired TT in 07 and hired Dorion habs would be better off right now.

 

[Whitesnake]

How many 20G scorers is that for Dorian over those 4 drafts? Which goalie did TT draft since Price that is better than Lehner? Massian? Fucale? I take EK over McD and PK combined. EK will finish his career with double if not triple the Noris of those 2 combined. If we would of fired TT in 07 and hired Dorion habs would be better off right now.

Well it's easy to say now that we don't have McDo....but a PK/McDo pairing would be doing what Karlsson alone can't do.