montreal
Go Habs Go
They could have traded down and gone with Simon Despres who it was rumored that Timmins was interested in him (too bad about his injury problems) There was Alex Chiasson who was from Montreal.
Trevor Timmins Part II
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They could have traded down and gone with Simon Despres who it was rumored that Timmins was interested in him (too bad about his injury problems) There was Alex Chiasson who was from Montreal.
Those were 3 bad drafts in a row that cost the habs. Line up would be a lot better with Kuznetzov/Kreider in it. Beau/Klefboom is a toss up but I take Klef because he has more trade value according to HF.
I guess I am the only one who thinks Kuz/AG/Danault/MAC down the middle looks pretty good. MAx-RADs Kreider-Galley is a decent top 6 of wingers too.
montreal
Go Habs Go
Take out Price, Subban and Galchenyuk and replace them with turds and we are a laughing stock of the league. It works both ways, you can play the cherry picking game where you find picks he missed on and do the what if but if do, it works the same for his hits.
Whitesnake
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Well if he missed those picks I would be on his case for those as well. I think its fair to cherry pick with hindsight because thats how you have to evaluate a scout. The scouts job is to get the best players in the draft and if they miss out on those then they made a mistake.
I mean you are lauding Timmins for those picks, so why shouldn't he be criticized for the ones he missed. If not then he shouldn't get any props for getting AG/Subban/Price etc...
That was 3 drafts in a row in the 1st round where late 1st round picks could of been big players on the team. IMHO 3 big misses that is one of the big reasons the habs have lacked depth on the wing and down the middle since MB took over. Beau over Klef is a wash but the other two were big time swings and misses. Especially Tinordi we traded up for that *** guy. Kuznetzov would sure look nice playing C for the habs.
The cherry picking game to discredit Timmins has no sense. The story is well known, he was deprived of many good picks between 2008 and 2011, and he made two mistakes with Leblanc and Tinordi. Not his fault if Gainey and Gauthier traded many picks in the first three rounds for almost nothing. At least MB is no longer giving his picks away. Petry and Shaw are here long term and he got Danault plus a second for nothing.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
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Not sure what field you are working on but chances are you job is being cherry picked to try to tell you that you should do a better job, and chances are you are cherry picking too when it's time to explain how great a job you are doing.
Let's not cherry pick Timmins for his average record since 2008....but let's point out how incredible he was for picking a guy like Gallagher that far in the draft. Isn't that cherry picking too? But a positive one doesn't count? Comment like yours make no sense as we can't criticize a guy when the pick happens 'cause we just don't know and we are asked to wait....but then when we wait and start analyzing it....we are told that we are cherry picking. Yes, he was "deprived" of picks. Yet, he wasn't deprived of them in some other years.
And when you are seen as THE best in the business you have to do something different than the average one of the worst ones. And what he has to do is being able to get top guys in the 1st round, when the percentage tells us that top NHL'ers will be picked in that round AND he needs to find gems in other rounds, what he was able to do before 2007.
The greatest part of it all is when we are, as amateur armchair scouts, asked what OUR record was during the same period. And strangely enough, WE are judged more harshly than him and any professionnal whose job it is to do the scouting, and who has everything at their disposal to do the best job possible. Enough with excuses. He needs to be better. He doesn't, can't and won't be PERFECT. But he needs to do more. And better. That's all.
le_sean
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It's not cherry picking. He's not picking NHL players in the first round other than Nate and Alex since 2007. That's pathetic.
If anyone is cherry picking it's the ones saying it's Gainey's fault they picked Leblanc. I don't buy it for a second.
Alternative facts here. McCarron is or is about to become an NHL player. After that it too early to tell. Also you know he had no first round pick in 2008. So in the end it's three NHL players in the first round in five years.
le_sean
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Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
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Sergachev, Juulsen, and Scherbak won't be NHLers??? And you know this how???
Tinordi and Leblanc are the only draft picks of his since 2007 who we know won't make the NHL (in 2008 we didn't have a 1st). Leblanc was picked 18th overall and Tinordi 22nd.
Plus in 2007 he picked two of the top players in the league with the 12th and 22nd picks.
(Pacioretty is in the top 4 in goals over the last 3 years, McDonagh is the All star representative for and Captain of one of the best teams in the league).
With Timmins drafting, I almost feel like its better if we don't even make the playoffs if we aren't realistic contenders.
Look at who he's drafted when we haven't made the playoffs:
Price
McDonah
Galchenyuk
Sergachev
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bsl
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I agree. It is Timmins first round misses that hurt. 2003 was a special **** up.
Could not care less that he has drafted great third liners.
His first round record is terribad
He is awful in round 1. Just admit it
So when my boss asks me to do something stupid I say nothing. This is a total ******** argument and always has been. Timmins ****ed up that pick. Period. It's on him.
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Lebowski
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Such an arbitrary cut-off.
Having a lot of picks makes it easier to look like a genius.
Timmins had very little to work with in 2008.
2009 was a miss, but again, no 2nd round pick.
Managed to get us Gallagher in 2010 in a draft where we only had one pick in the top 100.
Got us Beaulieu in 2011 in a year where we yet again didn't have any 2nd or 3rd round picks.
Galchenyuk and Hudon in 2012. Timmins finally had something to work with at the draft. The 2nd rounders didn't turn out well, but it's still a core player plus a potential top 6 player that's in development.
2013 and beyond becomes a bit murky to evaluate. So far, 2013 is looking very good. I suppose having SIX top 100 picks had something to do with it.
2014, 2015, 2016... No 2nd round picks in any of those drafts. 7 top 100 picks in total over 3 drafts...
The problem with this team is how we keep throwing picks around for marginal players with the mentality that 2nd round picks rarely ever make it. When you do that over a decade, no wonder the amount of home grown talent becomes thin. It's not Timmins that went from amazing to **** between 2007 and 2008, it's the team that has made it harder for him to find talent.
bsl
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That was 10 years ago. Ffs.
McDo was a great pick. The others my grandmother could have drafted.
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montreal
Go Habs Go
Because it's stupid to expect a scout to hit on every 1st round pick, unless they are constantly picking in the top 10. Timmins should be judged on his body of work, not random years. You sure have an axe to grind on Timmins though. Imo he's far down the list of problems for this organization.
it's not awful. I blame the development side more then I do the scouting. Shouldn't be that hard to understand when Lefebvre has such a poor record. If not for having some of the best goalies each year outside of Fucale, I feel sick just thinking how bad his teams would be. Some say it's Timmins fault, but did he take one of the best players on the team and remove him from a terrible PP and replace him with a no talent scrub. Did he put in net a goalie that was giving up 3-4 goals per game in favor of one of the top goalies in the AHL and the team MVP. Did Timmins move their most skilled prospect to a brand new position just days after returning from missing most of the season to injury as a 19 year old in what is by far the toughest forward position to learn.
People talk so much smack on this board, everyone's an expert but they rarely have the answers to the questions from people that watch every AHL game. It's ****ing ********. They sit behind a computer and pretend they have all the answers and I bet you many don't even watch more then 5 AHL games a year. How the **** can they know what's going on if they don't even watching the ****ing games, let alone how can any of us know what's going on behind the scenes.
Adam Michaels
Registered User
How the hell do you know he didn't fight for it? You wanted to see him kicking and screaming all the way up to the stage before they announce it? You don't know during scouting meetings what kind of arguments they had. The GM has the final word. When Montreal was up, Leblanc could have been second or third on Timmins' list from the players available. Gainey could have looked at that list and said "We will take Leblanc."
Carbonneau had argued with Gainey that Price needed more time in the AHL, but Gainey told him that they wanted him in the NHL. Carbo did fight for it, but in the end, the boss made the decision.
The same can be said about Timmins. The GM signs off on the choice first.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
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There is a cut-off for everything. When you look at a team's result over the past 10 games...isn't that a cut-off? When people look at Pacioretty's goals since when he started to be hot...isn't that a cut-off? So if you say that, it means that you never use "trends" "cut-offs" or whatever. Is that how you operate? If not, I don't see the difference. In regards to Timmins, well okay, if your point is that since he had a lot of picks to work with before 2008, he shouldn't be look at great before, just like he shouldn't be seen as bad because he had so little to work with....well while I completely don't agree, I will say that your point makes total sense. Yet, you know that this is not what you meant, that this guy, for you, was great before, and it's not his fault now. THE ONLY JOB IN THE WORLD that he can't be faulted for anything. How great is that?
Now, going draft by draft, yeah, 2008 he had little to work with. He STILL had enough picks to draft guys that were drafted AFTER he chose the players we got. Having little to work with means 2 things....the chances to get a top 10 player is incredibly slimmer and the chances to have a lot of quantity is incredibly slim either. But it DOES NOT refrain him from pikcing a homerun with ANY of those picks we had. Incredibly enough, he had little to work with in 2010 and ended up picking Gallagher. So let's praise him for that....but let's excuse him for 2008. Would be neat if your analysis would be fair ALL-AROUND.
2009: Yeah, no 2nd round picks....a 2nd round pick he needed since 2003 to get Lehkonen and Subban....but he ALSO used 2nd round picks to get Latendresse (no idea how he will turn on to be without those concussions...), Lapierre, Urquhart, Maxwell, Carle, Kristo, Collberg, Thrower, De La Rose, and Fucale.....So please tell me again how Timmins performance in the 2nd round since he is here is a sign that him not having them means we SURELY missed incredible players along the way?
2010: Yeah...see? That's what I'M talking about...so little to work with and yet....got Gallagher. In the 5th round. He could have gotten more in 2008 with his 2nd rounder you love. And how about that 1st rounder? Why are you insisting on the "no 2nd rounder" and suddenly forgot the 1st round misses he had?
2011: "Got us Beaulieu" in a year he didn't have a 2nd and a 3rd" what does that mean? He couldn't have gotten us Klefbom, Murphy, Rakell etc. because we didn't have a 2nd and a 3rd? We love our small players.....Gaudreau was less interesting than Didier? Oh but we didn't need small players we had enough already.....which is the greatest excuse ever (not something you said, but in general)...how about realizing that you STILL can get 10 more small players the day that you realize that the ones you have, you need to GET RID of them and that the other ones coming might just be better?
2012: Yeah, he got Galchenyuk. An overall easy pick to make but he made it anyway. Not sure how you can talk about Hudon, a guy who keeps being forgotten by the team who clearly doesn't like him and I'm obviously not talking about the times he's not being called up because of injuries. And having a lot to work with didn't help him AT ALL. You keep talking about not having a lot to work with, a year when he DOES, he strikes out. Get the obvious pick. Miss on the others.
2013: Yeah, tougher to analyse. Not sure how you say that it's looking VERY good.....in that draft, you "might" have found a top 6 player in Lehkonen. And a bottom filler in McCarron. THE rest, is not going to be permenent fixtures in Montreal. All great to see that DLR and Ghetto played in the NHL and yet, you can find those types of guys on every team in the league, even the ones with bad scouting groups....okay almost every team. But let's hope they are considered good enough to be parts in a trade that will improve us. So we will see. So having A LOT of picks actually will probably not change a whole lot. Imagine we would have went with Kuznetsov in 2010....a Kuznetsov/Gallagher pairing in a year where he HAD NOTHING to work with compared to what looks like a McCarron/Lehkonen pairing. And just before you talk to me about hindsight about Kuznetsov, well my point was not about that. My point is about your analysis of "not having a lot to work with" which has absolutely NO CORRELATION between picking Tinordi vs Kuznetsov. You could have 1 pick in the draft and STILL end up picking a great guy in a 1st round.
2014 to 2016: Way too early and those drafts are actually the ones that might bring Timmins back to the quality he was known back then. Predictions?
2014: Scherbak is a freakin big question mark. From boom to bust. Not expecting anything out of Koberstein. And I'll go as far as to say the same for Evans despite his good season. But I can be surprised. Lernout doesn't have the learning curve I thought he would have but not counting him out yet. Audette and Hawkey are the most interesting pieces in there, could go either way for those 2 guys. So interesting stories there.
2015: Juulsen will be a #3/#4. But he better be 'cause Aho, Carlo and maybe Beauvilllier look very good right now. Bradley and Addison have the potential to be 3rd or 4th liners. Bourque might end up a replica of Dietz or Ellis. And Vejdemo was looked at a potential homerun that will struck out Avtsin like. Usually I would have no proble with that.....yet, a couple of players chosen after will make us cringe a little I think.
2016: Possibility of a great draft since a long time with Sergachev, Bitten and Mete....whom I see as possibilities to play key roles on this team. Yet, I'm expecting NOTHING about of the other 3.
Again, not saying he's the worst ever. But just saying that "the best" has to differentiate himself from the good, the average and the bad. I would expect the "he doesn't have a lot to work with" to explain the poor results by average scouting groups.....but the best? I think we can expect better. That's all. Going back to the first premisce though.....people works with cut-offs all the time. Boston won 1 Cup, still Julien was fired because they missed the playoffs lately....So do you hear about the Cup? Isn't winning 1 Cup in 5 years good enough? In today's NHL, sure it is. But what people go with right now is the last 2 playoffs didn't weren't a part of and maybe missing another one though that wasn't a surefire thing.Draft exist so that you can find there, what you can't find in trades and UFA anymore. TOP PLAYERS. Not depth. Bergevin himself keeps whining about players that are hard to find. So you need to pick them. And yes, it would be preferable if we would let Timmins have more picks and then some. THERE IS NOTHING I WANTED MORE than to forget about Shaw and keep our high 2 2nd rounders. THIS IS WHERE we would have seen Timmins work. And he wasn't able to. Not his fault. But having to get Shaw, having to get Radulov and so on is a proof that since 2008, we haven't been able to rack the top players aside from Galchy and Gallagher up front (Lehkonen incoming). And on D....well the "top" player we got was Beaulieu...imagine that.
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GREMLIN
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le_sean
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No I actually don't think Scherbak will be much of anything. He can't skate, he doesn't have particularly good hands.
Juulsen looks like a #4, that's fine at that spot.
Sergachev was a 9th overall pick. Hard to **** that up.
rockjngo
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Timmins has been riding this 2007 draft year with Mcdonagh/Pacioretty/Subban...since then ....
2008
Danny Kristo R Bust
Steve Quailer R Bust
Jason Missiaen G Bust
Maxim Trunev F Bust
Patrick Johnson Bust
2009
Louis Leblanc R Bust
Joonas Nattinen C Bust
Mac Bennett D Bust
Alexander Avtsin Bust
Gabriel Dumont C Bust
Dustin Walsh C Bust
Mike Cichy C Bust
Petteri Simila Bust
2010
Jarred Tinordi Bust
Mark MacMillan Bust
Morgan Ellis Bust
Brendan Gallagher NHL player top 9 forward
John Westin Bust
2011
Nathan Beaulieu NHL player 4-6th defenseman
Josiah Didier Bust
Olivier Archambault Bust
Magnus Nygren Bust
Darren Dietz Bust
Daniel Pribyl Bust
Colin Sullivan Bust
2012
Alex Galchenyuk NHL player top 6 forward
Sebastian Collberg Bust
Dalton Thrower Bust
Tim Bozon Bust
Brady Vail Bust
Charles Hudon AHL forward/Bust
Erik Nystrom Bust
2013
Michael McCarron AHL forward/NHL bottom 6?
Jacob De La Rose AHL forward/Bust
Zachary Fucale Bust
Artturi Lehkonen NHL top 9 forward
Connor Crisp Bust
Sven Andrighetto AHL forward?
Martin Reway Euro bound/AHL?
Jeremy Gregoire Bust
2014
Nikita Scherbak Too early to tell
Brett Lernout AHL/Bust
Nikolas Koberstein AHL?
Daniel Audette AHL?
Hayden Hawkey Bust?
Jake Evans Bust
2015 Too early to know
2016 Too early to know
4 NHL regulars since 2008 to 2013...(Galchenyuk no brainer pick at #3, Gallagher, Beaulieu and Lehkonen).....wow wonder why this guy still has a job after 10 years.
4 players in the last 10 years!!!!
2008
Danny Kristo R Bust
Steve Quailer R Bust
Jason Missiaen G Bust
Maxim Trunev F Bust
Patrick Johnson Bust
2009
Louis Leblanc R Bust
Joonas Nattinen C Bust
Mac Bennett D Bust
Alexander Avtsin Bust
Gabriel Dumont C Bust
Dustin Walsh C Bust
Mike Cichy C Bust
Petteri Simila Bust
2010
Jarred Tinordi Bust
Mark MacMillan Bust
Morgan Ellis Bust
Brendan Gallagher NHL player top 9 forward
John Westin Bust
2011
Nathan Beaulieu NHL player 4-6th defenseman
Josiah Didier Bust
Olivier Archambault Bust
Magnus Nygren Bust
Darren Dietz Bust
Daniel Pribyl Bust
Colin Sullivan Bust
2012
Alex Galchenyuk NHL player top 6 forward
Sebastian Collberg Bust
Dalton Thrower Bust
Tim Bozon Bust
Brady Vail Bust
Charles Hudon AHL forward/Bust
Erik Nystrom Bust
2013
Michael McCarron AHL forward/NHL bottom 6?
Jacob De La Rose AHL forward/Bust
Zachary Fucale Bust
Artturi Lehkonen NHL top 9 forward
Connor Crisp Bust
Sven Andrighetto AHL forward?
Martin Reway Euro bound/AHL?
Jeremy Gregoire Bust
2014
Nikita Scherbak Too early to tell
Brett Lernout AHL/Bust
Nikolas Koberstein AHL?
Daniel Audette AHL?
Hayden Hawkey Bust?
Jake Evans Bust
2015 Too early to know
2016 Too early to know
4 NHL regulars since 2008 to 2013...(Galchenyuk no brainer pick at #3, Gallagher, Beaulieu and Lehkonen).....wow wonder why this guy still has a job after 10 years.
4 players in the last 10 years!!!!
Drafting and development go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. If your scouting and drafting are great, but your development system sucks your not going to get great results. The same goes for crappy scouting and drafting with a great development system. The first thing I was hoping Bergevin would do when he took over as GM was improve both the scouting and development departments. I don't hate Timmins and I don't mind keeping him as head scout, but I'd like to surround him with better scouts. We often blame one person (the head of the department in this case) for failures. It's almost like we forget that there is an entire staff that evaluates talent. I'm sure Timmins doesn't get to watch every single draft eligible prospect at length. He likely relies on his scouting staff and their opinions just like head scouts in any other organization. Case in point, Arvid Henriksson. From what I've heard, it was Montreal's Swedish scout that wanted Bergevin to draft him. I doubt Timmins (or Bergevin) even knew who this kid was. It just goes to show that Timmins isn't the only one with input on draft day.
10 years? You said 2015 and 2016 are too recent to know and yet proceed to include them.
That's fine, here are the actual numbers then. since 2008;
Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, McCarron, Lehkonen and Sergachev.
That's 6 players (from decent to significant roles) in 9 drafts (and that's not including any of Juulsen, Scherbak, Lernout, Bitten, Mete, Andrighetto).
I'd like to see the same exercise with the other teams picking around 20th and later.
Before they even think of replacing the drafting department they need to wipe the current development group first starting with Lefevbre and MB's other friends he gave a job and start over with actual competent people. The switch to Laval is as good an opportunity as any.
That's fine, here are the actual numbers then. since 2008;
Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, McCarron, Lehkonen and Sergachev.
That's 6 players (from decent to significant roles) in 9 drafts (and that's not including any of Juulsen, Scherbak, Lernout, Bitten, Mete, Andrighetto).
I'd like to see the same exercise with the other teams picking around 20th and later.
Before they even think of replacing the drafting department they need to wipe the current development group first starting with Lefevbre and MB's other friends he gave a job and start over with actual competent people. The switch to Laval is as good an opportunity as any.
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WhiskeySeven*
Expect the expected
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This organization was well on its way to becoming accountable and professional and then BargainBin came in and hired his buddies to an over-stuffed hockey ops department and now we see the rot creeping in.
Timmins has to be accountable for the bad drafts but our development program is utterly insane - crushes any sort of creativity out of players. Doesn't foster talent at all.
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