GDT: Training Camp Discussion

[The Hanging Jowl]

Two forwards who will be in the top 10 tier for Selke votes can't get a "selke level 2 way play" comment? They're on the same line. One of the hardest duos to play against excluding playoff failures. Some of you guys are so out of touch with the game, just sitting here spewing nonsense all day instead.

So they're sending them out in a defensive role to stifle the other teams' top lines? That's literally what a shutdown line does.

 

[ACC1224]

Don't you have to line match to have a shutdown line? Keefe doesn't line match.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Well, they are good defensive players. But a shutdown line has a specific meaning. Your best offensive package will never be a shutdown line.

Maybe take your head out of your ass and see that the word selke implies offense as well. They're our "everything " line that will get 20-24 minutes a game.

 

[Marmoset]

Well, they are good defensive players. But a shutdown line has a specific meaning. Your best offensive package will never be a shutdown line.

Absolutely. They are good defensive players, just not great ones. I don't think they should regularly be a shutdown line. If they are, it's because other guys on your team aren't good enough, not because they are outstanding in the role. Perhaps they will continue to improve and get there, maybe even this year, but at least as of last season I didn't see that level of defensive ability.

It's not exactly the same thing, but I wonder if Marner should play the PK as much as he does. Given the choice, I'd rather he spend a little more ice time at even strength to give them more opportunities on offence. For this season it depends on some of the new guys too, and it's too early for me to know if they're better/worse.

 

[VanW27]

I don't think this is accurate. It's clearly a battle for those 3.

Maybe, but you'd think they would be giving some reps to a Dermott-Lily pair by now if that was the case.

 

[stickty111]

Maybe, but you'd think they would be giving some reps to a Dermott-Lily pair by now if that was the case.

Thats true

 

[Mess]

yep if a team with 5 bottom 6 forwards and 2 bottom pair dmen dressed doesn't look great it clearly means we have no depth.

When Marner and Matthews get held to 1 goal in a 7 game series and JT gets hurt its these players playing tonight that are considered the "depth" that is expected to carry the team.

I agree, so when Leafs core 4 stars are held in check its doesn't look all that great for Leafs.

Pick 9-10 guys from tonight's game because they will be on Leafs roster this season. Lets see how they perform on their merits.

I'll be watching for those players that stand out on their own merits.

 

[LeafChief]

When Marner and Matthews get held to 1 goal in a 7 game series and JT gets hurt its these players playing tonight that are considered the "depth" that is expected to carry the team.

I agree, so when Leafs core 4 stars are held in check its doesn't look all that great for Leafs.

Pick 9-10 guys from tonight's game because they will be on Leafs roster this season. Lets see how they perform on their merits.

I'll be watching for those players that stand out on their own merits.

"The Leafs are missing all of their top forwards and defencemen tonight. If the bottom end roster players and AHL tweeners don't easily beat a Sens team playing numerous roster players in a PRESEASON game, it's going to be dooms day".

Seems like sound logic to me.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Absolutely. They are good defensive players, just not great ones. I don't think they should regularly be a shutdown line. If they are, it's because other guys on your team aren't good enough, not because they are outstanding in the role. Perhaps they will continue to improve and get there, maybe even this year, but at least as of last season I didn't see that level of defensive ability.

It's not exactly the same thing, but I wonder if Marner should play the PK as much as he does. Given the choice, I'd rather he spend a little more ice time at even strength to give them more opportunities on offence. For this season it depends on some of the new guys too, and it's too early for me to know if they're better/worse.

It wouldn't matter if that were the best defensive players in the league. Your top offensive line is never your shutdown line unless you don't need goals.

 

[Fogelhund]

He is not. Miks effort level and legs is what makes him useful. He's average at best when you break down the actual toolset. He has never shown strong defensive awareness to date.

Not sure why you're pointing out who I responded to. I touched on both Kampf and Mik because they mention both.

Real world results, beg to differ. Your assessment is not even close to being accurate. Moving on.

 

[Fogelhund]

"The Leafs are missing all of their top forwards and defencemen tonight. If the bottom end roster players and AHL tweeners don't easily beat a Sens team playing numerous roster players in a PRESEASON game, it's going to be dooms day".

Seems like sound logic to me.

Was there a claim that it would be dooms day?

I just see a post wanting to see these players on their own merits, without the stars support. I too think that will be interesting to see who stands out on their own, who rises to the occasion. I don't think it means much to our record this season though... just one pre-season game, but it will be interesting to see who rises to this challenge and opportunity. This is their true tryout.

 

[zeke]

 

[zeke]

 

[zeke]

When Marner and Matthews get held to 1 goal in a 7 game series and JT gets hurt its these players playing tonight that are considered the "depth" that is expected to carry the team.

I agree, so when Leafs core 4 stars are held in check its doesn't look all that great for Leafs.

Interesting that you bring up the playoffs - even with their top 3 scorers producing only 1 goal, they still scored more against the Habs than any team other than the Bolts. That's some impressive depth.

Pick 9-10 guys from tonight's game because they will be on Leafs roster this season. Lets see how they perform on their merits.

I'll be watching for those players that stand out on their own merits.

Well, i sure hope you'll be here singing the praises of the depth if they produce tonight, because we all know damn well that you'll be here hilariously crapping on depth if a team icing only 7 starters - and none from their top-6 or top-4 - doesn't look great in this preseason game.

 

[zeke]

Maybe, but you'd think they would be giving some reps to a Dermott-Lily pair by now if that was the case.

yeah i was wondering about that too. not the greatest sign for Lilly.

BUT - and it's a legit big BUT - given that all three of them are likely sticking in camp to the very end, then there's lots of time left for them to give that a look. Whereas for a bunch of the other names tonight, this will be the last real look they get this camp before getting cut.

 

[justashadowof]

Not exactly setting up Dermott for success with Dahlstrom

I like giving a player guaranteed to make the team like Dermott some heavier lifting in the preseason. If it's the regular season then it's a completely different story.

 

[Zybalto]

Interesting that you bring up the playoffs - even with their top 3 scorers producing only 1 goal, they still scored more against the Habs than any team other than the Bolts. That's some impressive depth.



Well, i sure hope you'll be here singing the praises of the depth if they produce tonight, because we all know damn well that you'll be here hilariously crapping on depth if a team icing only 7 starters - and none from their top-6 or top-4 - doesn't look great in this preseason game.

The Leafs top stars performed similarly to Tampa's if you actually include the Leafs top 3 stars. (trying to throw Tavares and his less than 3 minutes played is a bit strange) The best thing about Nylander is how he has proved the naysayers wrong and he's on a pretty great contract for what he brings and is firmly entrenched in what should be rightly called "The big 4".

Tampa's go-to scoring threats in the series: Stamkos/Point/Kucherov: 5 goals, 9 points in 5 games

Leafs' go-to scoring threats in the series: Matthews/Marner/Nylander: 6 goals, 17 points in 7 games

The biggest differences in the two series has little to do with scoring (unless you want to talk about how injuries hurt the Leafs from scoring even more). Campbell throwing down a sub .900 save% the final three games (including that brutal softie to set the tone for game 7) combined with game losing giveaways from Gally+Dermott are things Tampa just didnt do. Having a goalie like Vasy throwing down 4 straight shutouts in 4 straight series-clinching games is a crazy luxury few teams possess.

 

[zeke]

The Leafs top stars performed similarly to Tampa's if you actually include the Leafs top 3 stars. (trying to throw Tavares and his less than 3 minutes played is a bit strange)

Fact is tavares was injured and thus didn't score. That is part of the reason why we didn't win. This isn't about blame.

The best thing about Nylander is how he has proved the naysayers wrong and he's on a pretty great contract for what he brings and is firmly entrenched in what should be rightly called "The big 4".

Tampa's go-to scoring threats in the series: Stamkos/Point/Kucherov: 5 goals, 9 points in 5 games

Leafs' go-to scoring threats in the series: Matthews/Marner/Nylander: 6 goals, 17 points in 7 games

The biggest differences in the two series has little to do with scoring (unless you want to talk about how injuries hurt the Leafs from scoring even more). Campbell throwing down a sub .900 save% the final three games (including that brutal softie to set the tone for game 7) combined with game losing giveaways from Gally+Dermott are things Tampa just didnt do. Having a goalie like Vasy throwing down 4 straight shutouts in 4 straight series-clinching games is a crazy luxury few teams possess.

Nylander scoring is great. This doesn't change the fact that our top3 $33m worth of scorers only scored 1 goal. That can't happen, and we can't win when that happens.

Top Liners:

Kucherov/Point/Stamkos: 0.80gpg
Matthews/Marner/Tavares: 0.14gpg

Middle 6ers:

Palat/Killorn/Cirelli/Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow: 1.20gpg
Nylander/Hyman/Foligno/Kerfoot/Galy/Mikky: 1.14gpg

Bottom Liners:

Colton/Johnson/Maroon/Joseph: 0.80gpg
Spezza/Thornton/Simmonds/Engvall/Brooks/Nash: 0.57gpg

Defensemen:

TBL: 0.60gpg
TOR: 0.71gpg


Or, another way to look at it:

Top-3

TBL: 0.80gpg
TOR: 0.14gpg

Everyone but the Top-3:

TBL: 2.60
TOR: 2.42

SV%

TBL: .943
TOR: .934

 

[LeafChief]

Fact is tavares was injured and thus didn't score. That is part of the reason why we didn't win. This isn't about blame.




Nylander scoring is great. This doesn't change the fact that our top3 $33m worth of scorers only scored 1 goal. That can't happen, and we can't win when that happens.

Top Liners:

Kucherov/Point/Stamkos: 0.80gpg
Matthews/Marner/Tavares: 0.14gpg

Middle 6ers:

Palat/Killorn/Cirelli/Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow: 1.20gpg
Nylander/Hyman/Foligno/Kerfoot/Galy/Mikky: 1.14gpg

Bottom Liners:

Colton/Johnson/Maroon/Joseph: 0.80gpg
Spezza/Thornton/Simmonds/Engvall/Brooks/Nash: 0.57gpg

Defensemen:

TBL: 0.60gpg
TOR: 0.71gpg


Or, another way to look at it:

Top-3

TBL: 0.80gpg
TOR: 0.14gpg

Everyone but the Top-3:

TBL: 2.60
TOR: 2.42

SV%

TBL: .943
TOR: .934

Don't let your facts and statistics get in the way of feelings.

 

[Sypher04]

It’s sad that people within this fanbase still cannot seem to see and appreciate fully what we have in Matthews and Marner. Marner is a damn good defensive player, and Matthews is one of the very best in the league. The only reason Matthews didn’t finish top 5-10 imo in Selke voting is because of an antiquated belief that Selke award winners have to penalty kill

 

[ottomaddox]

Sort of ironic...

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Careful Keefe, this quote could come back up bite you like the “Matthews-Marner against anyone” line.

 

[ottomaddox]

It’s sad that people within this fanbase still cannot seem to see and appreciate fully what we have in Matthews and Marner. Marner is a damn good defensive player, and Matthews is one of the very best in the league. The only reason Matthews didn’t finish top 5 imo in Selke voting is because of an antiquated belief that Selke award winners have to penalty kill

Sorry? Why is it antiquated?

 

[kevsh]

That line can, theoretically, both shut down and produce. Mikheyev and Kerfoot are both strong defensive players, Kase is a bit of a banger and can put the puck in the net.

Regardless, the Kampf line, whatever it may be, will be the shutdown line.

You don't want Kerfoot centering a shutdown line. However, if you put Kampf in there at C instead and move Kerfoot to the wing, better.

 

[stickty111]

Was there a claim that it would be dooms day?

I just see a post wanting to see these players on their own merits, without the stars support. I too think that will be interesting to see who stands out on their own, who rises to the occasion. I don't think it means much to our record this season though... just one pre-season game, but it will be interesting to see who rises to this challenge and opportunity. This is their true tryout.

Just look at the last GDT. Lots of negativity. His post isn't out of line.