GDT: Training Camp Discussion

[Zybalto]

Fact is tavares was injured and thus didn't score. That is part of the reason why we didn't win. This isn't about blame.




Nylander scoring is great. This doesn't change the fact that our top3 $33m worth of scorers only scored 1 goal. That can't happen, and we can't win when that happens.

Top Liners:

Kucherov/Point/Stamkos: 0.80gpg
Matthews/Marner/Tavares: 0.14gpg

Middle 6ers:

Palat/Killorn/Cirelli/Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow: 1.20gpg
Nylander/Hyman/Foligno/Kerfoot/Galy/Mikky: 1.14gpg

Bottom Liners:

Colton/Johnson/Maroon/Joseph: 0.80gpg
Spezza/Thornton/Simmonds/Engvall/Brooks/Nash: 0.57gpg

Defensemen:

TBL: 0.60gpg
TOR: 0.71gpg


Or, another way to look at it:

Top-3

TBL: 0.80gpg
TOR: 0.14gpg

Everyone but the Top-3:

TBL: 2.60
TOR: 2.42

SV%

TBL: .943
TOR: .934

Heh, our disagreement is literally that I think Tavares shouldnt be considered a top 3 scorer considering he got knocked out in the first period of the first game of a 7 game series and you think he should. Your math only works if apply him as being a significant player that played in the series....otherwise it looks like Toronto's top scorers were on par and Tampa's depth and goaltending came through. (Tampa's goaltending is the deciding factor anyways with Vasy in net). I think Nylander stood up good in Tavares absence and played great in his role as the 3rd go-to guy and certainly a top scorer for the team. Is Nylander a first-line winger or not? He's paid like one and his goals and points total the last two years cement him as one. Labelling a talent like him a middle sixer seems...well...kind of unlike you. Even if Tavares played, he would have still been on the second line right?

So....just to be completely clear here...

Tavares 2:52 of total minutes played (average of around 25 seconds of 5v5 over the course of a 7 game series) = a player that that should be included as having been a top guy.
Nylander: 18:20 a game (up from 16:36 in the regular season) = a middle sixer?
Kucherov: 18:17 a game (just for fun) = middle sixer?

Rerun your math with Nylander instead of Tavares and see how it works out. That's the difference between us pretty much and certainly how the series played out. The whole money thing at the top looks like a wash as well when that happens. I'm not discounting that Matthews potting one of his several posts or Marner not getting stoned by Price would have made a difference. It would have of course. Just like us being healthy would have completely changed the series as well. Including a guy who missed 99% of a series to push an argument of how poorly top guys played doesn't quite pass the smell test IMO. It would be like running Stamkos, Point and the first 3 minutes of Kuch = 1 goal.

Clutch Goaltending
Injuries
Depth players providing more scoring/less mistakes.

Biggest factors between the two series.

I thought of Nylander as a primary scoring option for the team before Tavares went down though and a no brainer once he was out. His minutes were redistributed among the other top guys as well as additional PP time for guys like Spezza (who I would not label as a bottom guy on your list).

Anyways, enough rambling. Let's just enjoy the game tonight.

Cheers.

 

[Zybalto]

Don't let your facts and statistics get in the way of feelings.

100%. The fallout from the series has made even a hardcore Nylander mark like Zeke call him a middle sixer? Kinda crazy. Next he'll be calling Muzzin a 2nd pairing guy.

 

[Sypher04]

Sorry? Why is it antiquated?

Because penalty kill has absolutely nothing to do with whether a player is the best defensively or not. And in fact, not even all penalty killers are individually strong defensive players, though many are. There are a litany of reasons why a coach may choose not to play a specific player who is strong defensively on the penalty kill that have nothing to do with his comparable defensive ability. This is apparent league wide, but can be easily spotted within our own team.

 

[ACC1224]

It’s sad that people within this fanbase still cannot seem to see and appreciate fully what we have in Matthews and Marner. Marner is a damn good defensive player, and Matthews is one of the very best in the league. The only reason Matthews didn’t finish top 5-10 imo in Selke voting is because of an antiquated belief that Selke award winners have to penalty kill

How do you know that PK is part of the criteria voters use?

 

[Sypher04]

How do you know that PK is part of the criteria voters use?

I can’t point to anything specific I guess, but it is a talking point every season when the Selke comes up. I think it’s pretty clear personally that it is a big part of it. Again though, this has always been just my view

 

[ottomaddox]

Because penalty kill has absolutely nothing to do with whether a player is the best defensively or not. And in fact, not even all penalty killers are individually strong defensive players, though many are. There are a litany of reasons why a coach may choose not to play a specific player who is strong defensively on the penalty kill that have nothing to do with his comparable defensive ability. This is apparent league wide, but can be easily spotted within our own team.

You remind me of the HF Board member who used to argue that Jake Gardiner was a defensive defenseman.

I suppose you can label anything "antiquated" that doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Marmoset]

It’s sad that people within this fanbase still cannot seem to see and appreciate fully what we have in Matthews and Marner. Marner is a damn good defensive player, and Matthews is one of the very best in the league. The only reason Matthews didn’t finish top 5-10 imo in Selke voting is because of an antiquated belief that Selke award winners have to penalty kill

What you call failing to "appreciate fully" is simply a difference of opinion. It's not intentionally hating on these guys. I do not think the majority of Leaf fans feel that either of these two players are at a level defensively where they are in the upper echelon of the league and deserving of serious consideration for that award. This hardly means they are terrible defensively, just not among the best (yet).

You're entitled to your opinion of course. Good defence is harder to quantify than good offence because you can't just point to goals and assists. It's much more subjective. I'd be curious to hear what Sheldon Keefe or Kyle Dubas would say if asked about this.

This is straying off topic and I'll avoid any further comment on it.

 

[Sypher04]

You remind me of the HF Board member who used to argue that Jake Gardiner was a defensive defenseman.

I suppose you can label anything "antiquated" that doesn't fit your narrative.

Give me a break. I’m allowed to hold the opinion that something is antiquated. I never positioned any of this as anything other than my opinion.

If you don’t agree you’re free to do so but leave the other bs out of it

 

[Sypher04]

What you call failing to "appreciate fully" is simply a difference of opinion. It's not intentionally hating on these guys. I do not think the majority of Leaf fans feel that either of these two players are at a level defensively where they are in the upper echelon of the league and deserving of serious consideration for that award. This hardly means they are terrible defensively, just not among the best (yet).

More or less everything we discuss here falls under the category of differences of opinion. There is more than enough data points however to support the idea that both marner and Matthews are upper echelon defensive stars. Obviously however, my comment you quoted is more pointed at those who don’t acknowledge how strong defensively they’ve become, even if you don’t put them in that high level, they’d be closer than not.

 

[ottomaddox]

Give me a break. I’m allowed to hold the opinion that something is antiquated. I never positioned any of this as anything other than my opinion.

If you don’t agree you’re free to do so but leave the other bs out of it

I think that Matthews and Marner are OK defensively, but in no way do I think that the lack of recognition is due to "antiquated" attitudes.

I believe Kadri got a few votes for the Selke one year without being a PKer.

Also (for perspective) Jay McClement got Selke votes too. He was a good PKer, better defensively than Matthews/Marner, but not good offensively.

 

[Sypher04]

I think that Matthews and Marner are OK defensively, but in no way do I think that the lack of recognition is due to "antiquated" attitudes.

I believe Kadri got a few votes for the Selke one year without being a PKer.

Also (for perspective) Jay McClement got Selke votes too. He was a good PKer, better defensively than Matthews/Marner, but not good offensively.

well, Matthews was 27th in Selke voting this past season. Do you honestly believe he wouldn’t have been higher if he also killed penalties? Marner was 10th and Matthews is the better defensive player so it seems pretty clear to me personally, but if we don’t agree that’s fine

 

[zeke]

100%. The fallout from the series has made even a hardcore Nylander mark like Zeke call him a middle sixer? Kinda crazy. Next he'll be calling Muzzin a 2nd pairing guy.

A team can't have more than 3 top-3 forwards.

Having Willy as a middle 6er speaks to our depth.

 

[Zybalto]

A team can't have more than 3 top-3 forwards.

Having Willy as a middle 6er speaks to our depth.

Zeke today: "Willy is a middle sixer and Tavares is a first liner"

Also Zeke this year:

"Matty's line and Willy's line."

"Mitch needs matthews more than willy does, Tavares needs willy more than Matthews does."

"40gl/79pt pace since Keefe took over 58gms ago and started treating him like a true top line forward"

"There's nothing fluky in the numbers, its just a product of being used properly as a topline forward at both even strength and on the PP for the first time in his career."

(I know theres more but I only had to look for a couple of minutes)

....damn...all it took was Tavares to get injured to pass Willy on your depth chart.

Alright Alright, I'll stop teasing ya. You caved to me earlier on the Danault thing so I'll bite the bullet on the fact it's damn infuriating that Matthews/Marner didnt convert on all those chances.

They score and we win. Theres no denying it. Those games shouldnt have even got to the point Gally and Dermott are giving them away.

Time to get excited about this season.

 

[zeke]

Zeke today: "Willy is a middle sixer and Tavares is a first liner"

Also Zeke this year:

"Matty's line and Willy's line."

"Mitch needs matthews more than willy does, Tavares needs willy more than Matthews does."

"40gl/79pt pace since Keefe took over 58gms ago and started treating him like a true top line forward"

"There's nothing fluky in the numbers, its just a product of being used properly as a topline forward at both even strength and on the PP for the first time in his career."

(I know theres more but I only had to look for a couple of minutes)

....damn...all it took was Tavares to get injured to pass Willy on your depth chart.

Alright Alright, I'll stop teasing ya. You caved to me earlier on the Danault thing so I'll bite the bullet on the fact it's damn infuriating that Matthews/Marner didnt convert on all those chances.

They score and we win. Theres no denying it. Those games shouldnt have even got to the point Gally and Dermott are giving them away.

Time to get excited about this season.

"Middle 6er" is not a talent description.

There are 12 forward slots. The middle 6 is the middle 6. If you have great players in your middle 6 then you're pretty good.

 

[Zybalto]

"Middle 6er" is not a talent description.

There are 12 forward slots. The middle 6 is the middle 6. If you have great players in your middle 6 then you're pretty good.

Then why did you put an injured Tavares as a...

No, I said I was gonna stop and I am.

Lets enjoy this season brotha. Our bubble players look pretty good tonight eh?

 

[egd27]

Any guesses if they'll carry a 21 or 22 man roster?

 

[francis246]

Any guesses if they'll carry a 21 or 22 man roster?

If they can get rid of Engvall and sign Ho Sang for cheap, they may be able to carry 23.
Best case scenario is Engvall is traded or claimed on waivers

 

[Dion TheFluff]

I doubt it happens but it would be hilarious if Bunting outscored Hyman this year

 

[uncleben]

PART II