GDT: Training Camp 2023

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And not for nothing, on 32 Thoughts today Friedman mentioned that Edmonton might be forced to play with 17 "players" (unclear if he's counting goalies or not) on opening night due to injuries and cap constraints.
 
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I am hoping Laffy, Turcotte, and Thomas all get looks this year.

Players like Grundstrom, Lewis, and Lizotte are getting stale for me and Arvidsson has prob priced himself out with the Kings needing the money for Roy and a goalie.
 
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I literally asked if any team has made a trade like the Kings recently to put them in the same position. You said "I'm not going to look into that." So I did. That's doing your work.

Saying it's because I dislike the PLD trade is reductive bullshit, because I also dislike the Fiala trade. Notice how I didn't just bring up other moves I dislike?

I chose circumstances that illustrate that the Kings icing a less than 23-man roster was completely avoidable by not bringing in a huge contract, specifically at the cost of 3 smaller ones.

The other teams did not use the same decision tree as the Kings did at a time when they had a good idea of what the cap would be. Do you have an example of a team doing the same? If yes, I'll gladly agree that it was a stupid decision by them, too.
No, I said I'm not going to analyze every single roster transaction and the consensus fan base position for the indefinite past for every team starting with less than 23. The indisputable fact is that 1/3 of the league can't carry a full roster on opening night.

Relatedly, just wanted to note that you framed this as the Kings making the Dubois trade only to later realize that they can't ice a full roster now. I would imagine that doesn't change your ultimate opposition to it but it's a revisionist framing, FWIW:

“We will have to make sacrifices and have already, that’s part of it over the last four years without a real big cap increase,” Blake said. “We know the projections this year and we see the future projections in the next couple of years and I have a good staff that manages it. I would imagine we’re light on our roster for a lot of the time during the season, a lot of times you want to carry 23 but you need cap space to do it. I’m not sure we’re going to be in that position going forward and that was something we talked to Todd about and understood as an organization. We know that there is going to be lots of juggling with with the cap situation.”

So the answer is there aren't other teams who sacrificed depth, only to realize they can't afford to ice a whole roster?
 
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Sure, but if you believe what TM tells to the media, then there is no way they try to move Fagemo thru waivers with how he gushed about him and being a "really good player". A very young, very cheap, former FRP, etc. who you think is a "really good player". Yeah, either they are complete idiots or you should take what they say with a grain of salt.
Dude...if TM hates Kaliyev and the kids like so many here allude to, it would be very easy for him to say something in this situation like 'one man down, next one up - we'll go from there' or whatever. He specifically was asked if this would affect Kaliyev's roster spot -- and he specifically said NO.
 
No, I said I'm not going to analyze every single roster transaction and the consensus fan base position for the indefinite past for every team starting with less than 23. The indisputable fact is that 1/3 of the league can't carry a full roster on opening night.
And the point is some are for dumber reasons than others. Pretending they're all the same is a silly defense.

It's like saying Trevor Lewis is the same as Connor McDavid because they're both NHL forwards.
 
It's useless to argue with them, they put their fingers in their ears and shout nah nah nah nah, not one of them have the sense of f***ing acorn,

Out of everyone, Herby is probably the only one who can put together a sensible argument, even though we disagree most of the time, the other f***ing acorn's just have an irrational hate of Blake and refuse to recognize that nearly all the clubs do the same shit, but because Blake does it, he's a f***ing moron....And Herby (I'm not really talking about development, so there is that)
And then you have acorns that even use quotes like this:

"God f*** this franchise so god damn much" -- such a weird thing to say on a fan website about the team you are fan of.
 
And the point is some are for dumber reasons than others. Pretending they're all the same is a silly defense.

It's like saying Trevor Lewis is the same as Connor McDavid because they're both NHL forwards.
This is drifting a bit from the (at least) 1/3 of the league that is starting the season with a short roster, but some might argue that dumb would be to roll back the same roster as last year considering that we saw its severe limitations against Edmonton (for a second year in a row). Vilardi/Iafallo/Kupari combined have almost exactly the equivalent cap hit of Dubois.

If we live in a universe where the Kings don't make the trade and retain those three, the Kings still would have to make sacrifices on roster construction (whether it be in goal, not re-signing Gavrikov, etc.). This does ultimately loop back the basis for my original point: the stagnant cap (not to mention the basic idea of a cap) makes it difficult to perfectly allocate resources to all positions on the roster while also carrying a full roster.
 
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I think they will give him a roster spot but put him in a position to fail as they’ve done repeatedly. And once he does, they will use that as justification to dispose him.

So where do you play him? You can't take Kempe off the top line, nor Arvi just for the sake of getting him in a "position to succeed" . Both guys are light years better than him. That leaves the 3rd/4th line right? He should've excelled there last year, yet didn't. As someone pointed out, he isn't fast, isn't good on defense, and you can tell , he really doesn't have a lot of hockey smarts. He's got a NHL high-quality shot, and then it falls off. Martin FRK did too if I recall. Honestly I have no idea what we'll see in Kaliyev this year. I hope it's massive progress.
 
So where do you play him? You can't take Kempe off the top line, nor Arvi just for the sake of getting him in a "position to succeed" . Both guys are light years better than him. That leaves the 3rd/4th line right? He should've excelled there last year, yet didn't. As someone pointed out, he isn't fast, isn't good on defense, and you can tell , he really doesn't have a lot of hockey smarts. He's got a NHL high-quality shot, and then it falls off. Martin FRK did too if I recall. Honestly I have no idea what we'll see in Kaliyev this year. I hope it's massive progress.
The Danault line is the 3rd line. So Arty will be on the 2nd.

It's about as good of an opportunity as he's ever going to get. If he doesn't make it as a scorer with those two he probably never will.
 
So where do you play him? You can't take Kempe off the top line, nor Arvi just for the sake of getting him in a "position to succeed" . Both guys are light years better than him. That leaves the 3rd/4th line right? He should've excelled there last year, yet didn't. As someone pointed out, he isn't fast, isn't good on defense, and you can tell , he really doesn't have a lot of hockey smarts. He's got a NHL high-quality shot, and then it falls off. Martin FRK did too if I recall. Honestly I have no idea what we'll see in Kaliyev this year. I hope it's massive progress.
Wait you wouldn’t give him Arvidsson spot? Kaliyev is the younger player with a higher ceiling.. arvidsson contract expires this year and the Kings will most likely let him walk. I personally would use context when playing them. Kaliyev has a lot to prove while Arvidsson is most likely gone this year
 
This does ultimately loop back the basis for my original point: the stagnant cap (not to mention the basic idea of a cap) makes it difficult to perfectly allocate resources to all positions on the roster while also carrying a full roster.

Guess you'd better go tell the canes, the stars, the avalanche, and all the other true contenders that they can't have a powerhouse team and they had better find some roster deficiencies due to these cap constraints then

Which boils down to the ultimate point--other teams can manage it. We want the Kings to, as well. I don't see why that's so controversial and you're so willing to give them so many outs when they've had half a decade AND an inherited championship infrastructure.
 
This is drifting a bit from the (at least) 1/3 of the league that is starting the season with a short roster, but some might argue that dumb would be to roll back the same roster as last year considering that we saw its severe limitations against Edmonton (for a second year in a row). Vilardi/Iafallo/Kupari combined have almost exactly the equivalent cap hit of Dubois.

If we live in a universe where the Kings don't make the trade and retain those three, the Kings still would have to make sacrifices on roster construction (whether it be in goal, not re-signing Gavrikov, etc.). This does ultimately loop back the basis for my original point: the stagnant cap (not to mention the basic idea of a cap) makes it difficult to perfectly allocate resources to all positions on the roster while also carrying a full roster.
And there would be much less vitriol from reasonable people.

It would have brought up other points of why the Kings need to make more efforts to bring in and keep some cost-controlled talent.

Blake may not be absolved of all criticism, but we can specifically point to a particular trade, made very recently, where the blow of these cap constraints could be softened.

Byfield - Kopitar - Kempe
Moore - Danault - Arvidsson
Fiala - Kupari - Vilardi
Iafallo - Lizotte - Kaliyev

And Lewis could have replaced Kaliyev, particularly during his suspension.

It would have been 22 players instead of 21, which is much more manageable of having 1 extra forward and 1 extra defenseman.
 
Wait you wouldn’t give him Arvidsson spot? Kaliyev is the younger player with a higher ceiling.. arvidsson contract expires this year and the Kings will most likely let him walk. I personally would use context when playing them. Kaliyev has a lot to prove while Arvidsson is most likely gone this year

Give? So you'd kill an already established line for the sake of a guy who has potential and a higher ceiling? You honestly see Kaliyev as a better player right now?
 
And there would be much less vitriol from reasonable people.

It would have brought up other points of why the Kings need to make more efforts to bring in and keep some cost-controlled talent.

Blake may not be absolved of all criticism, but we can specifically point to a particular trade, made very recently, where the blow of these cap constraints could be softened.

Byfield - Kopitar - Kempe
Moore - Danault - Arvidsson
Fiala - Kupari - Vilardi
Iafallo - Lizotte - Kaliyev

And Lewis could have replaced Kaliyev, particularly during his suspension.

It would have been 22 players instead of 21, which is much more manageable of having 1 extra forward and 1 extra defenseman.

Sorry, that lineup is not better than the current lineup, and you are leaving out the D, in which that scenario, we don't resign Gavrikov.....so then your D is

Andersson - Doughty
Bjornfot - Roy
Englund - Spence/Clarke

Much weaker....
 
Guess you'd better go tell the canes, the stars, the avalanche, and all the other true contenders that they can't have a powerhouse team and they had better find some roster deficiencies due to these cap constraints then

Which boils down to the ultimate point--other teams can manage it. We want the Kings to, as well. I don't see why that's so controversial and you're so willing to give them so many outs when they've had half a decade AND an inherited championship infrastructure.
I mean, those teams can't do it though because the three you listed are all starting under 23. That's the whole point. Not a single one of those three is a perfectly constructed team that has no inefficiencies on the roster.

Colorado is spending $4 million a on Ryan Johansen coming off a 0.5 point-per-game season to be the second line center (a hole Colorado had last year, by the way, after it couldn't afford to bring back Kadri due to cap constraints). Colorado also just had to play waiver roulette just to fill the backup goaltending position.

I doubt many people here would be stoked to be paying nearly $5 million to a second-line center who barely cracked 0.5 points per game last season like Carolina is. Carolina also doesn't exactly have what anyone would call elite goaltending between Andersen and Raanta.

Dallas is paying $9,850,000 to a 31-year-old Tyler Seguin who has been a 50-point player for the past 2 seasons. Dallas is also paying $9,500,000 to a 34-year-old Jamie Benn who rode wild and unsustainble individual and on-ice shooting percentages after years of excessively inefficient contract-to-production value.

Each one of those teams is close to the cap (some more than others) while not one of those teams is icing a 23-man roster to start the year.
 
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Give? So you'd kill an already established line for the sake of a guy who has potential and a higher ceiling? You honestly see Kaliyev as a better player right now?
I can easily see Kaliyev replacing Arvidssons stats with some more icetime and linemates. Arvidsson is the better player right now but he’s gone come TDL or offseason. Kaliyev needs the opportunity. Arvidsson is not that important that he’s pivotal to be kept on that line Imo.
 
I can easily see Kaliyev replacing Arvidssons stats with some more icetime and linemates. Arvidsson is the better player right now but he’s gone come TDL or offseason. Kaliyev needs the opportunity. Arvidsson is not that important that he’s pivotal to be kept on that line Imo.

Depending on if its TDL or off-season, you give Kaliyev a shit tone of ice time in the AHL, and then when there is a spot, you put him there, you don't play him as a 13th line F....you don't play him as a 4th line F unless there is a spot open (there isn't one) etc.

I agree, Kaliyev seems to be, logically, the heir apparent to Arvidsson, but you don't jettison Arvidson just because there's an heir apparent, Kaliyev still has a lot of work and growth to get done before that happens.
 
I mean, those teams can't do it though because the three you listed are all starting under 23. That's the whole point. Not a single one of those three is a perfectly constructed team that has no inefficiencies on the roster.

Colorado is spending $4 million a on Ryan Johansen coming off a 0.5 point-per-game season to be the second line center (a hole Colorado had last year, by the way, after it couldn't afford to bring back Kadri due to cap constraints). Colorado also just had to play waiver roulette just to fill the backup goaltending position.

I doubt many people here would be stoked to be paying nearly $5 million to a second-line center who barely cracked 0.5 points per game last season like Carolina is. Carolina also doesn't exactly have what anyone would call elite goaltending between Andersen and Raanta.

Dallas is paying $9,850,000 to a 31-year-old Tyler Seguin who has been a 50-point player for the past 2 seasons. Dallas is also paying $9,500,000 to a 34-year-old Jamie Benn who rode wild and unsustainble individual and on-ice shooting percentages after years of excessively inefficient contract-to-production value.

Each one of those teams is close to the cap (some more than others) while not one of those teams is icing a 23-man roster to start the year.

oh boy, PLEASE audit the Kings in like manner
 
oh boy, PLEASE audit the Kings in like manner
I have not once said the Kings had a perfectly constructed roster like you implied about Colorado, Dallas, and Carolina. In fact, the entire point I've been making is that it is impossible to perfectly allocate all resources under a stagnant cap in order to have a flawless roster (i.e., one without deficiencies). Once again, teams have to make sacrifices (one prominent example being the 1/3 of the league that is opening the season carrying less than 23 players).
 
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I can easily see Kaliyev replacing Arvidssons stats with some more icetime and linemates. Arvidsson is the better player right now but he’s gone come TDL or offseason. Kaliyev needs the opportunity. Arvidsson is not that important that he’s pivotal to be kept on that line Imo.
I want to see Kaliyev find a home on this team (as TM has talked about Moore in the past), but I just don’t see his fit on that line. The Nice line works as well as it does because all three guys are constant motor, high energy/effort players and (when clicking) suffocate the opposing line in that fashion. I’m fine to see what the three of them would look like as a line, but I think you’ll loose the “sum greater than it’s parts” aspect of that line by putting a trigger man who isn’t a forechecking machine on that line.
 
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