training camp 2023

[Linkens Mastery]

Who are you putting with Thomas and JK? I am not advocating one way or another, but jus wondering.

Buchnevich.

Buchnevich-Thomas-Kyrou
Saad-Schenn-Kapanem
Vrana-Hayes-Blais
Toropchenko-Alexandrov-Sunny


I don't have any expectation we will be good this year, but, we need to stop playing players with players that don't compliment them.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Small sample size and preseason, so take with the usual measure of salt. But Sunny has better face-off numbers than our top 8 Cs, Thomas, Schenn and Hayes. He is 1 shy of break even with 33 FOs taken. Maybe we are overflowing hiw bad he is at faceoffs?

*edit* Another caveat, stats are only for some games because modern technology doesn't allow box scores if the game isn't streamed for some reason I can't fathom.


Buchnevuch has been stapled there all pre-season. Gives a defensive presence to help cover Kyrou and all 3 are legit 1st liners. 2nd line has Saad to help cover Vrana. 3rd line has...well crap. Ok, we only have 2 good defensive forwards

they generally don't give complete stats on games that are in non-nhl arenas (unless is special event like australia games). only get basic stats for those games, no TOI or special stuff.

 

[STL fan in MN]

I think I really want Vrana with Hayes and Blais. And Schenn with Saad and Kapanen. If we are aiming to play players with players that compliment their strengths. I know it's very unlikely, but, i think I would prefer Neighbors down getting top line minutes with Bolduc and Dean in the AHL and run Toropchenko, Alexandrov, and Sunny on the 4th line. Neighbours will get his chance later in the season when a player gets injured.

I’m starting to lean that way too. Neighbours hasn’t actually earned a spot in the top-9 and I’m not sure it’s in his best interest to start on the 4th line. He’s waiver exempt so if that’s how it falls, send him to the AHL IMO.

Buch-Thomas-Kyrou
Saad-Schenn-Kapanen
Vrana-Hayes-Blais
Alexandrov-Sunny-Toropchenko
MacMac as the extra

I’d also be looking at the waiver wire to see if some other team waives a forward better than MacMac and/or Alexandrov. Bonus if it’s a 4C type that can actually win faceoffs and we can run:
Toro-waiver pickup-Sunny

 

[BlueDream]

Small sample size and preseason, so take with the usual measure of salt. But Sunny has better face-off numbers than our top 8 Cs, Thomas, Schenn and Hayes. He is 1 shy of break even with 33 FOs taken. Maybe we are overflowing hiw bad he is at faceoffs?

*edit* Another caveat, stats are only for some games because modern technology doesn't allow box scores if the game isn't streamed for some reason I can't fathom.


Buchnevuch has been stapled there all pre-season. Gives a defensive presence to help cover Kyrou and all 3 are legit 1st liners. 2nd line has Saad to help cover Vrana. 3rd line has...well crap. Ok, we only have 2 good defensive forwards

I like Sundqvist but he has never been a good faceoff guy going back to when he was in STL the first time. Not sure why preseason stats would matter.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

neighbors is becoming a bust IMO. hopefully he figures it out

I said the moment he was picked, I hated that pick. f***ing hated it. Like, I haven't hated a Blues 1st-round pick like that since we took Jordan Schmaltz. I wanted Schmaltz dealt ASAP before everyone else figured out how much he sucked; I've said the same about MV63 as well.

He's a one-tool player. Works fine in major juniors, might work some in the AHL. Works like shit in the NHL. People who thought "he's a top-6 guy?" might want to start prepping those "shit, I was f***ing wrong about him" posts. His best-case upside is to be Klim Kostin. (No, that's not a compliment to Kostin.) The only question at this point is whether everyone else in the league has caught on, or if there's still a GM to sucker into a trade. I say ship him out for whatever value we can right now, before he dribbles the rest of it away.

 

[Brian39]

I said the moment he was picked, I hated that pick. f***ing hated it. Like, I haven't hated a Blues 1st-round pick like that since we took Jordan Schmaltz. I wanted Schmaltz dealt ASAP before everyone else figured out how much he sucked; I've said the same about MV63 as well.

He's a one-tool player. Works fine in major juniors, might work some in the AHL. Works like shit in the NHL. People who thought "he's a top-6 guy?" might want to start prepping those "shit, I was f***ing wrong about him" posts. His best-case upside is to be Klim Kostin. (No, that's not a compliment to Kostin.) The only question at this point is whether everyone else in the league has caught on, or if there's still a GM to sucker into a trade. I say ship him out for whatever value we can right now, before he dribbles the rest of it away.

Any and all credibility goes out the window when you argue that any player is definitively a bust coming off his age 20 season. Anyone who can consistently predict 20 year olds with that level of certainty has failed massively in their life by not parlaying that superhuman ability into being the highest paid executive in hockey.

Klim Kostin had 4 career NHL games by his 21st birthday and took a wildly different development path than Neighbours. Kostin didn't make the NHL beyond a cup of coffee until his D+5 season. That year, he had 9 points in 40 NHL games and 6 point in 17 AHL games. Neighbours was in his D+3 season last year, when he had 10 points in 43 games and 16 points in 23 AHL games.

Kostin is an absolutely horrible comp for Neighbour's best-case upside. His D+3 season was more successful than Kostin's D+5 season.

 

[Thallis]

I said the moment he was picked, I hated that pick. f***ing hated it. Like, I haven't hated a Blues 1st-round pick like that since we took Jordan Schmaltz. I wanted Schmaltz dealt ASAP before everyone else figured out how much he sucked; I've said the same about MV63 as well.

He's a one-tool player. Works fine in major juniors, might work some in the AHL. Works like shit in the NHL. People who thought "he's a top-6 guy?" might want to start prepping those "shit, I was f***ing wrong about him" posts. His best-case upside is to be Klim Kostin. (No, that's not a compliment to Kostin.) The only question at this point is whether everyone else in the league has caught on, or if there's still a GM to sucker into a trade. I say ship him out for whatever value we can right now, before he dribbles the rest of it away.

I didn't like the neighbours pick either and see him as a 4th liner going forward but he's already better than Kostin.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Any and all credibility goes out the window when you argue that any player is definitively a bust coming off his age 20 season.

I'm just going to stop you right here and counter with this equally true statement: Any and all credibility goes out the window when you (the general you, not the specific you) argue that any player is definitively a top-6 lock coming off his age 18, age 19 or age 20 season merely because of some uber-spectacular stat line in a lesser league, especially in their age 20 season like Neighbours had.

Of course, if you want to talk about his D+3 year or whatever, I'd like to bring up Kostin. And Schmaltz. And Ty Rattie. And Brett Sonne. And others, who had great after-draft seasons and sucked ass in the NHL because they lacked basic skills to stick in the NHL. You know, like Neighbours lacks - which might include, but certainly isn't limited to: a good shot, consistently good passing, defensive awareness (as evidenced by his drifting around the defensive zone constantly looking for the breakout pass, when he's not just standing up high in the zone like he bought a prime seat to watch the game), creativity that is more than one go-to move in the offensive zone, and the ability to do useful things off the rush in the offensive zone besides stand in front of the net on occasion. Hell, I'd even question his general skating, because he has the ability to skate and use speed, he simply lacks the desire to do it more than perhaps twice a game and prefers to drift around or do the toe-push thing like he's saving energy for a 4th OT 3 nights from now.

But I'm sure 2-3 more years in the NHL will change all that and he'll become a well-rounded player capable of playing that top-6 role I've heard he can fill since the night he was drafted. Or, he'll go the way of the guys mentioned above. I'll (heavily) bet the latter.

 

[TK 421]

I'm just going to stop you right here and counter with this equally true statement: Any and all credibility goes out the window when you (the general you, not the specific you) argue that any player is definitively a top-6 lock coming off his age 18, age 19 or age 20 season merely because of some uber-spectacular stat line in a lesser league, especially in their age 20 season like Neighbours had.

Of course, if you want to talk about his D+3 year or whatever, I'd like to bring up Kostin. And Schmaltz. And Ty Rattie. And Brett Sonne. And others, who had great after-draft seasons and sucked ass in the NHL because they lacked basic skills to stick in the NHL. You know, like Neighbours lacks - which might include, but certainly isn't limited to: a good shot, consistently good passing, defensive awareness (as evidenced by his drifting around the defensive zone constantly looking for the breakout pass, when he's not just standing up high in the zone like he bought a prime seat to watch the game), creativity that is more than one go-to move in the offensive zone, and the ability to do useful things off the rush in the offensive zone besides stand in front of the net on occasion. Hell, I'd even question his general skating, because he has the ability to skate and use speed, he simply lacks the desire to do it more than perhaps twice a game and prefers to drift around or do the toe-push thing like he's saving energy for a 4th OT 3 nights from now.

But I'm sure 2-3 more years in the NHL will change all that and he'll become a well-rounded player capable of playing that top-6 role I've heard he can fill since the night he was drafted. Or, he'll go the way of the guys mentioned above. I'll (heavily) bet the latter.

I don't recall any significant amount of people suggesting Neighbours was a top 6 lock. I do remember seeing most agree he looked like a future bottom 6 player and a likely 3rd line guy once he settled in. Sounds more like you're taking issue with those few people who apparently used the verbiage "top 6 lock" and those should be easy to find if there's so many of them. I get you didn't like the pick but I think you're allowing your personal feelings about it to cloud your perception of what the board was suggesting he would turn out to be. Heck I was the biggest cheerleader for that pick and I was very clear that I saw him as a 3rd line complimentary piece and did so from Day 1. Maybe there were a lot that used that "top 6 lock" verbiage...but that's not how I remember it.

 

[Majorityof1]

I like Sundqvist but he has never been a good faceoff guy going back to when he was in STL the first time. Not sure why preseason stats would matter.

No, he hasn't been great. He has been consistently 42-45ish percent on most seasons where he took a lot of faceoffs. Who do we have for the 4th line that is better?

Preseason stats matter because that is the most current data we have. People are saying he has gotten worse at faceoffs, but he is actually a little bit higher this pre-season than his normal. My point was, maybe he hasn't gotten worse.

Why would we keep Alexandrov up in the NHL when he hasn't been good this preseason to stop Sunny taking faceoffs, when Sunny is doing a lot better on the dot than Alexandrov, or than Alexadnrov did last year..

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I don't recall any significant amount of people suggesting Neighbours was a top 6 lock. I do remember seeing most agree he looked like a future bottom 6 player and a likely 3rd line guy once he settled in. Sounds more like you're taking issue with those few people who apparently used the verbiage "top 6 lock" and those should be easy to find if there's so many of them. I get you didn't like the pick but I think you're allowing your personal feelings about it to cloud your perception of what the board was suggesting he would turn out to be. Heck I was the biggest cheerleader for that pick and I was very clear that I saw him as a 3rd line complimentary piece and did so from Day 1. Maybe there were a lot that used that "top 6 lock" verbiage...but that's not how I remember it.

i think i have been (and remain) higher on neighbours than many here, but i would never say any player is a top 6 lock (other than maybe a bedard). none of our prospects is, certainly. i think neighbours has top 6 upside, but probably always as 3rd guy on his line. but that is upside, and he clearly isn't there yet. at this point he is fighting for a role on 4th line. which i think he should win if we are comfortable with sunny at 4c. because if we slide sunny to wing then i think neighbours likely loses out to torpo for last spot.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

No, he hasn't been great. He has been consistently 42-45ish percent on most seasons where he took a lot of faceoffs. Who do we have for the 4th line that is better?

Preseason stats matter because that is the most current data we have. People are saying he has gotten worse at faceoffs, but he is actually a little bit higher this pre-season than his normal. My point was, maybe he hasn't gotten worse.

Why would we keep Alexandrov up in the NHL when he hasn't been good this preseason to stop Sunny taking faceoffs, when Sunny is doing a lot better on the dot than Alexandrov, or than Alexadnrov did last year..

i would say that issue isn't that sunny got worse on faceoffs (i don't know that he has, but was never great) it's that rest of his game has slipped. he isn't great puckhandler and his wheels aren't what they once were. now he is great character guy and i would be willing to play him at 4w because i think he still brings more than guys he is competing with for that spot.

and fwiw, i don't think alexandrov has shown enough to win spot in the lineup. and if we do waive him this week, i expect he will clear. there are gonna be lots of similar guys available this week. i agree with @STL fan in MN that we should be looking on waiver wire for someone to spot in at 4c.

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

It would be interesting to see Neighbours-Dean-Bolduc together in Springfield to start the year. Wouldn't be the worst thing for them to build some chemistry on what could be our third line the following season.

 

[TK 421]

i think i have been (and remain) higher on neighbours than many here, but i would never say any player is a top 6 lock (other than maybe a bedard). none of our prospects is, certainly. i think neighbours has top 6 upside, but probably always as 3rd guy on his line. but that is upside, and he clearly isn't there yet. at this point he is fighting for a role on 4th line. which i think he should win if we are comfortable with sunny at 4c. because if we slide sunny to wing then i think neighbours likely loses out to torpo for last spot.

Yeah Jake is like a Dallas Drake/Sammy Blais type of hard working player that can maybe be a 3rd wheel/dirty work in the corners guy in a top 6 role as a complimentary piece or potentially as a hard matchup line guy in the future should he develop the defensive acumen. You can make a case for middle 6 projection but if we're speaking specifically to the overall tone of the board from draft day 2020 through to now I'd say it's been mostly bottom 6 projection in general with potentially some top 6 usage at various points in his career depending on what role he settles into.

Just my opinion but Neighbours isn't a guy I worry about, I think he'll be an NHLer in some capacity even if it's as a 4th liner. I'm more focused on extracting value from the below average '21 1st round from which we have a pair of picks. Dean could turn out to be one of the better picks from the latter portion of the 1st even if he tops out as a 3C and Bolduc could end up in our top 6 as a winger. Or they could both bust....that 1st round blew goats so I wouldn't be surprised at any outcome there. After that upcoming stress we're on easy street with the sexier Snuggerud, Dvorsky, Stenberg, Lindstein group.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

and i wouldn't rule out claiming a defenseman if there is someone we like. if we need to place tucker, rosen, or scandella on waivers bc we think someone like JBD (or whomever) has better chance to be solid d then i am game. all 3 seem pretty marginal (and that assumes borts and peru ahead of them, and neither are exactly norris contenders). i'm not saying that there isn't a place for them in nhl, but its not in top 4 on decent team. and maybe not even top 6. if we can do better, we should.

 

[BlueDream]

and i wouldn't rule out claiming a defenseman if there is someone we like. if we need to place tucker, rosen, or scandella on waivers bc we think someone like JBD (or whomever) has better chance to be solid d then i am game. all 3 seem pretty marginal (and that assumes borts and peru ahead of them, and neither are exactly norris contenders). i'm not saying that there isn't a place for them in nhl, but its not in top 4 on decent team. and maybe not even top 6. if we can do better, we should.

Yeah I wouldn’t mind going outside the organization to fill a spot or two. It’s been disappointing to see a lot of these fringe guys not grab this chance in front of them, like they almost feel too comfortable.

Also wonder if there is a trade partner out there that has a surplus up front that may swap a 4th liner in exchange for one of our depth d-man. Wouldn’t be surprised if Scandy or Rosen just gets traded so that we feel like we got some value back.

I’ll be interested to see if there’s any movement over the next week.

 

[BlueOil]

No, he hasn't been great. He has been consistently 42-45ish percent on most seasons where he took a lot of faceoffs. Who do we have for the 4th line that is better?

not really advocating for him full time, but walker's better on the dot than sundqvist

move sunny to wing and let walker/alexandrov figure out the 4C

without bringing someone in, it's going to be a poorly filled position no matter who takes it

 

[STL fan in MN]

not really advocating for him full time, but walker's better on the dot than sundqvist

move sunny to wing and let walker/alexandrov figure out the 4C

without bringing someone in, it's going to be a poorly filled position no matter who takes it

Or just have Sunny and Alexandrov each take draws only on their strong side. Sunny is a righty and Alexandrov is a lefty.

I’m just making up numbers here but let’s say each is around 50% when trying to win it straight back on their backhand and 30% going the other way, for an average of about 40% overall. If they each only take faceoffs on their strong side, the line as a whole should be closer to 50% on faceoffs. Who actually plays C from a defensive coverage perspective doesn’t necessarily have to be the guy that takes the faceoff.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Most likely the opening night roster.

 

[stl76]

Most likely the opening night roster.

Interesting…surprising to think they may waive Alexandrov, but you never know.

 

[STL fan in MN]

Most likely the opening night roster.

Interesting that he lists 4 D pairs but then only 4 lines. Wonder if Walker-Alexandrov-MacMac currently makes up the 5th line? And only 1 will stay.

My guess is we hear about some cuts and/or waiver placements here in the next hour or so.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Also. I think I'm gonna love having a center on the 2nd PP that can make a pass again. Hayes was a nice addition along the wall on the PP. Especially with how the 2nd PP played last year, which was more of a unskilled brute force attack that was extremely easy to negate.

Kyrou-Thomas-Schenn-Buch-Krug
Vrana-Hayes-Saad-Faulk-Peru (you can flip Peru with a Forward)

I was pretty close.

 

[STL fan in MN]

I was pretty close.

Those PP units aren’t a good indicator for Perunovich.

 

[Brian39]

I'm just going to stop you right here and counter with this equally true statement: Any and all credibility goes out the window when you (the general you, not the specific you) argue that any player is definitively a top-6 lock coming off his age 18, age 19 or age 20 season merely because of some uber-spectacular stat line in a lesser league, especially in their age 20 season like Neighbours had.

Holy strawman. Where are these people calling him a top 6 lock? I don't recall anyone saying that. My recollection is that a small number of people pegged him with top 6 upside that they thought he had a good chance to reach, but I don't recall anyone saying it was a lock. I haven't seen anyone calling him a top 6 lock this summer. Meanwhile, you are making definitive statements that his 'best case upside' is a guy who didn't get meaningful NHL time until his D+5 season, cleared waivers at the start of his D+6 season and then eventually landed a 4th line role after spending some time on a new organization's AHL team.

Surely you understand that there is a gigantic gap of potential outcomes for Neighbours between "best-case upside of Klim Kostin" and "top 6 lock." There is almost an entire NHL-roster's worth of roles/outcomes between those two things. Klim Kostin has 32 points in 103 career NHL games with a career-high of 21 points (in 57 games) that was achieved on the back of a 19.6% shooting percentage. His career ATOI is under 10 minutes a night and he averaged just 10:04 in Edmonton. They played him 9:33 a night in the 28 games following his 22 game heater that saw him shoot 39% and pump home 9 goals. They didn't qualify him (reportedly worried about what his 21 point season could net him in arbitration).

No one is calling him a top 6 lock while you are saying that his best-case scenario is that of an NHL/AHL tweener or 4th liner. By far the most prevalent opinion on him around here is that he could develop into a middle 6 guy. If you go back and look through the 'rank our prospects' threads you will see that the Neighbours supporters were basically all some variation of 'high floor, low ceiling with a best-case scenario being either 3rd or 2nd line.' It's 100% on you if you interpret that as people calling him a top 6 lock.

Of course, if you want to talk about his D+3 year or whatever, I'd like to bring up Kostin. And Schmaltz. And Ty Rattie. And Brett Sonne. And others, who had great after-draft seasons and sucked ass in the NHL because they lacked basic skills to stick in the NHL.

The 4 players you mentioned accumulated a combined 6 NHL games by the conclusion of their D+3 seasons. Neighbours got a 9 game tryout in his D+2 season and played 40 NHL games in his D+3 season. When he was sent to the AHL for 23 games, he scored at a higher point pace than any of the 3 guys you listed who played in the AHL during their D+3 season. Which of them had a great D+3 season?

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Those PP units aren’t a good indicator for Perunovich.

I'm not worried about it. Krug will be hurt by week 4