Trades & Free Agency Thread: Off-season Edition

[VanW27]

If Robertson won't sign, we have to look at other options.

Sure, he doesn't have much leverage though.

Steeves, Cowan, Greb, plus there will be plenty of guys on waivers in a couple months who can be give you a Patches level impact.

 

[thusk]

Knies was slotted directly into the top six and got to play primarily with the core 4 since. He never really had to earn his spot and work his way up.
Woll has been handed the #1 goalie position, without ever earning it.
Both McMann and Benoit were given bigger roles and raises, without doing any more to earn them than Robertson.
Robertson hasn't really gotten these opportunities, despite earning them. He's been punted to disjointed lines in the bottom six and given no ice time, no matter what he does.

false Knies started on a 3rd line with oreilly and acciari and he basically his spot for next season there...

Woll step up when injuries came. He took his spot and keep it.

Mcmann playing physical, was working extremely hard,pretty good on forecheck and he's good defensively. So you put Mcmann with skilled player and he will find a way to bring back the puck with how he's playing. Even if Mcmann get 0 points, he can still have an impact.

Benoit it's basically the same thing. Even if

Robertson what he's bring? Scoring ability, thats it. When exemple hes playing with AM or WN/MM line,he doesn't help to this line to get the puck more and nylander, marner, matthews had to make the hard stuff. That's why Robertson struggling to keep a top 6 spot or even a lune up spot, if he don't score, he's totally uselss

Liljegren of he doesn't provide anything offensively, he's pretty useless too.

Although this is said many times, it is just not accurate.

There is no proven NHL prospect playing in the AHL who hasn't already played in the NHL.

No player is a proven NHL player before playing in the NHL.

From what I've heard there are coaches and development staff for NHL players.

NHL is definitely a league where players are developed beyond what is developed in the minors/junior

The fact than NHL is not a development league doesn't mean you can't still develop, that's mean you will not be in specific situation just to let you grow up.

Exemple you will not necessairly play in pp or late in the game to score a goal or in PK to raise your defensive game or late in game to protect a lead because you a good young and want to see you progressing in that part of ypur game, something that will happen in AHL. You will need to find by yourself in practice and whatever and try to transfert it in your game in real game. That's the difference between NHL and AHL and why NHL still not a development league.

 

[Kiwi]

Better question: What does he have to do to earn a spot on this team? Because it seems to me like the real problem with Robertson was Keefe.

He makes Nylander look like a Selke winner

He's defensively inept and no coach is going to trust him if he's going to defend like that

Say what you want about Keefe but he's not the player, it's Robertson's job to improve and gain the trust of his coach and he never did that

 

[thusk]

They say it takes about 200 games for an NHL defenseman to develop their game. Liljegren will play his 200th this year.

Benoit got his 200th in last year. He had already had one team walk away from home. Liljegren has shown flashes and maybe a new coach gets that consistency level up also..or maybe 200 games brings that? He looked pretty good when Reilly eas out.

Robertson hasn't played much and gets no PP time. He was top 30 in the NHL though for ES goals per 60 minutes. Patience with these guys works some times too. Again, new coach and let's see

just like that liljegren (209) played more NHL game than Benoit (208)...

For robertson like i said i a previous post, if he don't producing st high rate, hes useless. That's the problem with him. if he would be able to be good defensicely, he would be a full time NHL player but the only thing hes bring to the game is his number of goal and assist.

 

[conFABulator]

just like that liljegren (209) played more NHL game than Benoit (208)...

For robertson like i said i a previous post, if he don't producing st high rate, hes useless. That's the problem with him. if he would be able to be good defensicely, he would be a full time NHL player but the only thing hes bring to the game is his number of goal and assist.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying it is exactly 200 games. It is more that it take three or four years for most dmen to develop. Benoit seemed to take a step last year, but just the year before the Ducks don't tender him. Liljegren has improved every year. New coach, new partner...maybe new results?

I think we agree on Robertson. He can score when given the chance. His defensive shortcomings may be why he never gets that chance here. Or, we put him in a position to succeed offensively and either develop a useful player or increase the value of a trade chip.

Give him 40 games in the top nine. Give him some PP time and let's see what we got. He will give us at least was Pacioretty or A. Nylander will and lots of people seem to want to give them a look.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying it is exactly 200 games. It is more that it take three or four years for most dmen to develop. Benoit seemed to take a step last year, but just the year before the Ducks don't tender him. Liljegren has improved every year. New coach, new partner...maybe new results?

I think we agree on Robertson. He can score when given the chance. His defensive shortcomings may be why he never gets that chance here. Or, we put him in a position to succeed offensively and either develop a useful player or increase the value of a trade chip.

Give him 40 games in the top nine. Give him some PP time and let's see what we got. He will give us at least was Pacioretty or A. Nylander will and lots of people seem to want to give them a look.

I would try to sell Robertson on the likelihood of consistent top 9 minutes and PP time and even tell him basically if he can raise his game and we get an acceptable trade offer, we will do it but right now the offers clearly suck so he can sit at home or work his ass off to try to get out.

RE: Liljegren, I think we need to upgrade on him but maybe Berube gets more out of him than Keefe did.

If he's the weak link, it's something to look at fixing through the year if another RD becomes available.

 

[conFABulator]

I would try to sell Robertson on the likelihood of consistent top 9 minutes and PP time and even tell him basically if he can raise his game and we get an acceptable trade offer, we will do it but right now the offers clearly suck so he can sit at home or work his ass off to try to get out.

RE: Liljegren, I think we need to upgrade on him but maybe Berube gets more out of him than Keefe did.

If he's the weak link, it's something to look at fixing through the year if another RD becomes available.

Agree on Robertson.

I am not sure about Liljegren. He currently is not good enough to be a top 4 on a SC team. I do think I have seen flashes and glimpses though. When Reilly was out for five games, I though Lily was really good

This tells me his capable but not consistent. This is a mental and not physical issue. Some guys grow into this and the 200 games has more to do with figuring things out than becoming stronger or faster. This is a reason for hope. I am also really hopeful that OEL will be a good influence on him and support him in his development. Berube is the big unknown.

We cannot dump (not saying you said this) at 25 year old, RD that that can already give us 17 minutes a night. The problem is after this deal he will want Sandin money or more. We need him to be more than he is now for that to make sense. I am good giving it a year to see what we have with all of the aforementioned reasons for hope.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Agree on Robertson.

I am not sure about Liljegren. He currently is not good enough to be a top 4 on a SC team. I do think I have seen flashes and glimpses though. When Reilly was out for five games, I though Lily was really good

This tells me his capable but not consistent. This is a mental and not physical issue. Some guys grow into this and the 200 games has more to do with figuring things out than becoming stronger or faster. This is a reason for hope. I am also really hopeful that OEL will be a good influence on him and support him in his development. Berube is the big unknown.

We cannot dump (not saying you said this) at 25 year old, RD that that can already give us 17 minutes a night. The problem is after this deal he will want Sandin money or more. We need him to be more than he is now for that to make sense. I am good giving it a year to see what we have with all of the aforementioned reasons for hope.

Pretty much this but I am probably more on board up until TDL on Liljegren, if I still question his mental make up, if he's soft or if he's going to be a liability in the playoffs, he's the one I would look at upgrading on, hopefully all the above aids in him taking a step forward in his development.

 

[thusk]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying it is exactly 200 games. It is more that it take three or four years for most dmen to develop. Benoit seemed to take a step last year, but just the year before the Ducks don't tender him. Liljegren has improved every year. New coach, new partner...maybe new results?

I think we agree on Robertson. He can score when given the chance. His defensive shortcomings may be why he never gets that chance here. Or, we put him in a position to succeed offensively and either develop a useful player or increase the value of a trade chip.

Give him 40 games in the top nine. Give him some PP time and let's see what we got. He will give us at least was Pacioretty or A. Nylander will and lots of people seem to want to give them a look.

Personally i dont see a huge improvement in his lily game

its how i see liljegren and Benoit, last 3-4 year

Liljegren in red
Benoit in blue

Bwnoit constantly progressing and become better vs liljegren progression over years was pretty weak and he still make the same kind of mistake year after year and year after year he fighting just to stay in the line up close of playoff... in a team who drastically need a RHD.

Maybe his progression can get a declick and really jump high next season but i don't believe it

for Robertson, if hes producing exemple 40 pts but bring nothing else vs Mcmann who bring 30 pts and bring a little bit of everything everywhere... Just the number of forechecking battle won by mcmann who help exemple a matthews or Jt/ marner/ nylander to get the puck back on their stick. Maybe at the end of majority of those play will not result in direct pts but how much important it's to have that kind of player with your skilled player. maybe on irobertson 40 pts , he help on 40 goal but maybe Mcmann on his 30 pts, he helped the team on 60 goal. Robertson need to outproduce everyone around him because everyone was more complete.

He just have to prove he's better than pacioretty, it's not a big deal.

 

[conFABulator]

Pretty much this but I am probably more on board up until TDL on Liljegren, if I still question his mental make up, if he's soft or if he's going to be a liability in the playoffs, he's the one I would look at upgrading on, hopefully all the above aids in him taking a step forward in his development.

Fair. If he is not a fixture in the starting playoff lineup. We have our answer and we should have that by the TDL.

Having said that, if we are all healthy and have Hakanpaa, Lilly could be the odd man out even if he is having a good year.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Fair. If he is not a fixture in the starting playoff lineup. We have our answer and we should have that by the TDL.

Having said that, if we are all healthy and have Hakanpaa, Lilly could be the odd man out even if he is having a good year.

I am doubting Hakanpaa is happening now, unfortunate because he brings elements on the back end I love.

If it gets worked out and we have him, we could probably make do with a cheaper #7 and utilize Liljegren as a trade chip for a 3C maybe.

I'm jumping about 6 months ahead though lol.

 

[conFABulator]

Personally i dont see a huge improvement in his lily game

its how i see liljegren and Benoit, last 3-4 year

Liljegren in red
Benoit in blue

View attachment 904165

Thanks for this

I think we agree on Robertson.

As for Liljegren, I am not a huge fan or anything I am just patient and have seen ja give up Strahlman and Gunnarsson and

Bwnoit constantly progressing and become better vs liljegren progression over years was pretty weak and he still make the same kind of mistake year after year and year after year he fighting just to stay in the line up close of playoff... in a team who drastically need a RHD.

Maybe his progression can get a declick and really jump high next season but i don't believe it

for Robertson, if hes producing exemple 40 pts but bring nothing else vs Mcmann who bring 30 pts and bring a little bit of everything everywhere... Just the number of forechecking battle won by mcmann who help exemple a matthews or Jt/ marner/ nylander to get the puck back on their stick. Maybe at the end of majority of those play will not result in direct pts but how much important it's to have that kind of player with your skilled player. maybe on irobertson 40 pts , he help on 40 goal but maybe Mcmann on his 30 pts, he helped the team on 60 goal. Robertson need to outproduce everyone around him because everyone was more complete.

He just have to prove he's better than pacioretty, it's not a big deal.

Thanks for this

I think we agree on Robertson, except I don't want patches. Make this an internal battle. We need to start developing our own guys. Let Robertson, Holmberg, Grebyonkin, Minten, Cowan and Steeves fight over two spots. Include Dewar and let them fight over three spots.

As for Liljegren, I am not a huge fan or anything I am just patient and have seen ja give up Strahlman and Gunnarsson and this feels a bit similar.

I have seen enough glimpses and flashes that I am not ready to give up on him. Also seen enough flubs and invisible stretches where I am not giving too much longer of a leash.

As for your graph (thanks). I get it but I would shift the entire Benoit line down a bit. I am not sure he got that much better than Lily (or at all). He did get better than we thought he would and he was a pleasant surprise. He also plays a game we need and like to see, and he doesn't make much. These may all make him more attractive or valuable than Liljegren but I am not sure they make him better.

We need Lily to take a BIG step forward and not a 10% improvement. I hope his experience, a ne partner and a new coach and system bring the leap. If not, we do not want to be keeping him and having to pay him Sandin money.

 

[thusk]

Thanks for this

I think we agree on Robertson, except I don't want patches. Make this an internal battle. We need to start developing our own guys. Let Robertson, Holmberg, Grebyonkin, Minten, Cowan and Steeves fight over two spots. Include Dewar and let them fight over three spots.

As for Liljegren, I am not a huge fan or anything I am just patient and have seen ja give up Strahlman and Gunnarsson and this feels a bit similar.

I have seen enough glimpses and flashes that I am not ready to give up on him. Also seen enough flubs and invisible stretches where I am not giving too much longer of a leash.

As for your graph (thanks). I get it but I would shift the entire Benoit line down a bit. I am not sure he got that much better than Lily (or at all). He did get better than we thought he would and he was a pleasant surprise. He also plays a game we need and like to see, and he doesn't make much. These may all make him more attractive or valuable than Liljegren but I am not sure they make him better.

We need Lily to take a BIG step forward and not a 10% improvement. I hope his experience, a ne partner and a new coach and system bring the leap. If not, we do not want to be keeping him and having to pay him Sandin money.

personally liljegren remind me more a Travis Dermott, cody Franson than stalman...

For me Benoit is better than liljegren because we exactly know whst he can and will do every game. Liljegren is a kind of mistery boxes every game and you cross the finger when your open it.

Yep he raise his game when rielly was out but when a key memeber of your team get hurt for couple of game ( dont talk about season ending injury), than something happening. Every player find a way to raise their game simultaneously and at the same time make job easier for everybody. The key for a top 4 d is constancy

i dont know why adding a good veteran with a good leadership on a 4th line should be an awful thing to do. The worst thing could happen is he would be on waiver if he lost his spot

 

[ULF_55]

Personally i dont see a huge improvement in his lily game

its how i see liljegren and Benoit, last 3-4 year

Liljegren in red
Benoit in blue

View attachment 904165

Bwnoit constantly progressing and become better vs liljegren progression over years was pretty weak and he still make the same kind of mistake year after year and year after year he fighting just to stay in the line up close of playoff... in a team who drastically need a RHD.

Maybe his progression can get a declick and really jump high next season but i don't believe it

I'm not sure what you're measuring there though.

Benoit's game is so limited, more or less does one thing.

Difference between a master carpenter and a framer is huge.

How much skill for a framer to become proficient compared to a master carpenter?

Benoit is a framer.
Liljegren is learning to be a master carpenter.

 

[LeafEgo]

I'm not sure what you're measuring there though.

Benoit's game is so limited, more or less does one thing.

Difference between a master carpenter and a framer is huge.

How much skill for a framer to become proficient compared to a master carpenter?

Benoit is a framer.
Liljegren is learning to be a master carpenter.

Nice one. I'm team Benny because he's everything we need in his role locked up for three years at 1.35 - its perfect. Not sure Timmy will fit the bill or be in our long term plans - the bar is higher and he already costs 3M.

 

[ULF_55]

Nice one. I'm team Benny because he's everything we need in his role locked up for three years at 1.35 - its perfect. Not sure Timmy will fit the bill or be in our long term plans - the bar is higher and he already costs 3M.

Oh, I like both.

But one is slated to be a 3rd. pairing for life.
The other has more tools, and it takes longer to master more tools.

 

[rumman]

I'm not sure what you're measuring there though.

Benoit's game is so limited, more or less does one thing.

Difference between a master carpenter and a framer is huge.

How much skill for a framer to become proficient compared to a master carpenter?

Benoit is a framer.
Liljegren is learning to be a master carpenter.

Equating Lilly to a master carpenter will likely be the stupidest thing I read today. If Benoit is a framing carpenter then Lilly is a framing carpenter without a hammer and no motivation to put in a honest day’s work………

 

[conFABulator]

personally liljegren remind me more a Travis Dermott, cody Franson than stalman...

For me Benoit is better than liljegren because we exactly know whst he can and will do every game. Liljegren is a kind of mistery boxes every game and you cross the finger when your open it.

Yep he raise his game when rielly was out but when a key memeber of your team get hurt for couple of game ( dont talk about season ending injury), than something happening. Every player find a way to raise their game simultaneously and at the same time make job easier for everybody. The key for a top 4 d is constancy

i dont know why adding a good veteran with a good leadership on a 4th line should be an awful thing to do. The worst thing could happen is he would be on waiver if he lost his spot

That's well put, Benoit does seem more predictable and reliable and those are valuable attributes in a defenseman. We seem to be trying to trade for that every TDL. I do like Benoit a lot and we need guys like him at low AAVs.

However, if we are a contender, he should be a bottom pairing guy or even a seven. Liljegren offers the potential for more than that. He COULD be a top four. He skates better, he handles the puck better, he can skate out of trouble and play the PP. Now, be doesn't do any of those things with consistency or reliability and that's the problem.

He is a higher ceiling player and Benoit appears to be a higher floor player. The former are more valuable when they hit obviously but they don't always hit. They can take time and it can be a risk reward. Liljegren could be the next Strahlman and we will miss him when he is gone or he could be the next Dermott and we wonder why ever thought he might be more.

If it weren't for the changes around Lily this year I would have less reason for hope that he takes another step forward. My hope is based on his age and experience (200 games), playing with OEL and having a different coach and system. Let's see...not a lot of lead remaining on his leash though

Equating Lilly to a master carpenter will likely be the stupidest thing I read today. If Benoit is a framing carpenter then Lilly is a framing carpenter without a hammer and no motivation to put in a honest day’s work………

Master carpenter skills take much longer to develop than the framer.

 

[rumman]

That's well put, Benoit does seem more predictable and reliable and those are valuable attributes in a defenseman. We seem to be trying to trade for that every TDL. I do like Benoit a lot and we need guys like him at low AAVs.

However, if we are a contender, he should be a bottom pairing guy or even a seven. Liljegren offers the potential for more than that. He COULD be a top four. He skates better, he handles the puck better, he can skate out of trouble and play the PP. Now, be doesn't do any of those things with consistency or reliability and that's the problem.

He is a higher ceiling player and Benoit appears to be a higher floor player. The former are more valuable when they hit obviously but they don't always hit. They can take time and it can be a risk reward. Liljegren could be the next Strahlman and we will miss him when he is gone or he could be the next Dermott and we wonder why ever thought he might be more.

If it weren't for the changes around Lily this year I would have less reason for hope that he takes another step forward. My hope is based on his age and experience (200 games), playing with OEL and having a different coach and system. Let's see...not a lot of lead remaining on his leash though



Master carpenter skills take much longer to develop than the framer.

Duh……..Makar, is a master carpenter, Lilly will never develop the skills or work ethic to become this fictitious master carpenter. Your takes are getting funnier and funnier, keep em coming I always enjoy a good laugh with my morning coffee………..

 

[conFABulator]

Duh……..Makar, is a master carpenter, Lilly will never develop the skills or work ethic to become this fictitious master carpenter. Your takes are getting funnier and funnier, keep em coming I always enjoy a good laugh with my morning coffee………..

You are right, there is only one master carpenter in the world and there are no degrees therein. This analogy makes no sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Why do you seem to enjoy coming on here to fight with (not engage in actual discussion or thoughtful debate) we ith fellow fans. Is that the enjoyment you get? Is it the internet equivalent of standing on the front lawn and shaking your fist at younger people having fun? You really want to continue questioning why people consider you a grumpy old man? You are not.muxhnolder than me, but you appear to be a hell of a lot grumpier.

 

[weems]

One thing I like about Benoit and it was actually quite surprising, is that his overall speed numbers are quite a bit better than other defensive players like Lyubushkin or Schenn.

Top skating speed 2023

Simon Benoit 22.56
Ilya Lyubushkin 21.28
Luke Schenn 20.40

He still gets caught flat footed here and there but his overall mobility is decent.

 

[rumman]

You ar and right, there is only one master carpenter in the world and there are no degrees therein. This analogy makes no sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Why do you seem to enjoy coming on here to fight with (not engage in actual discussion or thoughtful debate) we ith fellow fans. Is that the enjoyment you get? Is it the internet equivalent of standing on the front lawn and shaking your fist at younger people having fun? You really want to continue questioning why people consider you a grumpy old man? You are not.muxhnolder than me, but you appear to be a hell of a lot grumpier.

If you don’t want to interact with me, stop replying to my posts. I’m not going to participate in your delusion about what this team is. No one’s shaking their fist at anything, like I said it appears anyone who doesn’t agree with you is either angry, grumpy, or shaking their fist at younger people, it’s really quite comical, but like I sai I like a good laugh with my morning coffee…….

 

[conFABulator]

If you don’t want to interact with me, stop replying to my posts. I’m not going to participate in your delusion about what this team is. No one’s shaking their fist at anything, like I said it appears anyone who doesn’t agree with you is either angry, grumpy, or shaking their fist at younger people, it’s really quite comical, but like I sai I like a good laugh with my morning coffee…….

Ok. I was responding to you disagreeing with me thinking you come across as grumpy.

Disagree with me all you want. Just do it with reason and I am up for the debate. Look around, I am in lots of respectful discussions on these boards. I love a good hockey discussion or respectful debate.

Call me names, put grinning idiot emojis on my content, or "blah, blah, blah" me and you come across as grumpy and I will tell you that.

By the way, you did it again and no more subtly...saying my posts are good for a laugh is an insult. Again, I don't care but it makes you come across as...hmmm...shall we say...ornery?

Rather than laughing, you could respond with actual points. You seem productive when it comes to listing what you DON'T like, but not so good on the way specifically to would do differently. This team and New GM made about as much change this offseason as they possibly could have with MNCs. What don't you like about the changes? What specifically would you have done differently?

 

[rumman]

Ok. I was responding to you disagreeing with me thinking you come across as grumpy.

Disagree with me all you want. Just do it with reason and I am up for the debate. Look around, I am in lots of respectful discussions on these boards. I love a good hockey discussion or respectful debate.

Call me names, put grinning idiot emojis on my content, or "blah, blah, blah" me and you come across as grumpy and I will tell you that.

By the way, you did it again and no more subtly...saying my posts are good for a laugh is an insult. Again, I don't care but it makes you come across as...hmmm...shall we say...ornery?

Rather than laughing, you could respond with actual points. You seem productive when it comes to listing what you DON'T like, but not so good on the way specifically to would do differently. This team and New GM made about as much change this offseason as they possibly could have with MNCs. What don't you like about the changes? What specifically would you have done differently?

Whatever affirmation your looking for about the state if the current team your not going to get from me, you see nothing but upside, I see a team with a problem the organization refuses to address. Until the elephant in the room is dealt with I see no meaningful reason to be hope…….

 

[conFABulator]

Whatever affirmation your looking for about the state if the current team your not going to get from me, you see nothing but upside, I see a team with a problem the organization refuses to address. Until the elephant in the room is dealt with I see no meaningful reason to be hope…….

Refuses to address? What more change could they have possibly made this offseason? I asked it before but you didn't answer.

New coach
New captain
New PP coach
50% new D since opening night last year
New goaltending tandem
No need deal for Marner
No extension for Tavares
Room for youth to break into the lineup
...they even changed the F***king goal song last year.

Seriously, doing nothing to address? What more specifically would you like to I have seen done this offseason?