Trades & Free Agency Thread: Off-season Edition

Updated Capwages a good replacement for CapFriendly. https://capwages.com/

  • Close by no cigar

    Votes: 17 30.4%
  • It will do until something better

    Votes: 31 55.4%
  • I like https://www.spotrac.com/nhl

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • I'm dropping another

    Votes: 6 10.7%

  • Total voters
    56
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LaPlante94

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Apr 12, 2011
7,124
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cant have it both ways their endorsements get taxed into oblivion too if we believe in taxation being the cause.

here's food for thought though everyone wants to say the 57 goal guy got 8.6m contract! our guy got 11.5m!

our guy has 265 points in his last 3 seasons (good for 1.08 ppg and pretty evenly spread out over that time frame with 114 goals. the other guy has 243 points over the same span and is good for 1 ppg. having a season where he shot like 25% on a bender Florida was smart to ensure they didnt give him 11.5m because he likely wont score like that again. Meanwhile our knuckleheads buy high and sell low.
Since when have players been paid for multiple seasons? Players literally have their best years in contract years and get way more money that they don't deserve. 22 more points earned Nylander 3 million more on his contract though? How does that add up still? So again, it's either greed on our cores part which we should've broke up long ago or it's taxes.
 
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WillNy29

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
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There was an article in the athletic where an accountant with NHL clients did the exercise including euro players. Americans and Canadians.

It worked out basically the same after year 1 because Players find it hard to meet the restrictions.

Again. Why in your opinion. Are agents. GMs players accountants and wealth managers openly saying that the tax breaks in states are causing players to take less?

Are they lying?

Why are they all taking less? I showed examples of the top players in high and low tax markets signing over the past pre and post Covid. No state tax teams get them for about 11.5% of cap. High tax teams get 14%.

Why?

Also Burke went on national tv and said Matthews would go to the states because of the taxes here. So I’m not sure what he said there. But here is what he said. He also said stamkos makes more at 8.5 in Tampa than the 10 plus deal here


Since when have players been paid for multiple seasons? Players literally have their best years in contract years and get way more money that they don't deserve. 22 more points earned Nylander 3 million more on his contract though? How does that add up still? So again, it's either greed on our cores part which we should've broke up long ago or it's taxes.


"From a tax perspective in Canada, a signing bonus is simple: the amount of the bonus is treated as ordinary employment income, and is taxable in the year received. But, when a U.S.-resident athlete receives a signing bonus to play in the NHL for a Canadian team, a special quirk of the Canada-U.S. income tax treaty kicks in.

The treaty provides that a signing bonus paid by a Canadian NHL team to a U.S.-resident player would be taxable in Canada – but that tax may not exceed 15 per cent of the gross amount of the payment."

This article pretty much should put to rest this nonsense on taxes.
 
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conFABulator

Registered User
Apr 11, 2021
1,743
1,532
Respectfully, any GM who considers their team to be a contender cannot consider anything like this line up. No team I can think of has 3 forwards with essentially less than l00 games played competing for the Cup, let alone 6. It might be a great 'learning' year for them, but it would be tough slogging.
In fairness, I read his post as a "few years out" and a combination of FA and promoted from within. I would like to see Marner moved, but that shifts this discussion into a "what value can we get for him" and that's a different topic. Without major trades, I would love to see the following lineup structure in a few years.

Robertson Matthews Domi
Tavares Marner Knies
Cowan Nylander Grebenkin
Tverberg Minten McMann
Holmberg Dewar Hirvonen

Now, all of these guys won't make it, but we need three or four homegrown prospects to contribute and be low cost. We need to start grooming them now. We already have with Knies, McMann, Robertson and Holmberg. We need a couple of new guys to get a taste this year.

There will be lots of cap space to fill in what gaps we have...let's figure out what those are.

I also really feel we need to see if Nylander and/or Marner can play C. That would change the calculus dramatically.

Our D should be integrating some of Niemela, Danford, Webber and Chadwick by them. Woll and one of the Marlies kids in G.

We need our own talent to contribute so FAs and TDL are filling gaps, not building the core.
 

LaPlante94

Registered User
Apr 12, 2011
7,124
3,460
Lol does this satisfy your itch to be proven wrong:


"From a tax perspective in Canada, a signing bonus is simple: the amount of the bonus is treated as ordinary employment income, and is taxable in the year received. But, when a U.S.-resident athlete receives a signing bonus to play in the NHL for a Canadian team, a special quirk of the Canada-U.S. income tax treaty kicks in.

The treaty provides that a signing bonus paid by a Canadian NHL team to a U.S.-resident player would be taxable in Canada – but that tax may not exceed 15 per cent of the gross amount of the payment."

This article pretty much should put to rest this nonsense on taxes.


here is the answer to the tax question:

From a tax perspective in Canada, a signing bonus is simple: the amount of the bonus is treated as ordinary employment income, and is taxable in the year received. But, when a U.S.-resident athlete receives a signing bonus to play in the NHL for a Canadian team, a special quirk of the Canada-U.S. income tax treaty kicks in.

The treaty provides that a signing bonus paid by a Canadian NHL team to a U.S.-resident player would be taxable in Canada – but that tax may not exceed 15 per cent of the gross amount of the payment.

Does that apply only to Americans? What about Swedes, Russians ad anyone from another country? I guess it would make sense why we targeted a lot more players in those countries in previous drafts except the last 2.
 

WillNy29

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
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Does that apply only to Americans? What about Swedes, Russians ad anyone from another country? I guess it would make sense why we targeted a lot more players in those countries in previous drafts except the last 2.
it's dependant on tax treaties with those countries. i've worked some in cross border taxation (Can-US) but very little in Canada-Europe (have a little bit of Canada-Ireland experience but Sweden if I'm not mistaken has a different treaty)
 

Ianturnedbull

Registered User
Jun 11, 2022
6,014
5,418
That's not really what the article says.

The writer thinks the Leafs should be interested in him. There is no suggestion that they actually are

Maybe, if we move Robertson for something of value could this make sense. I might prefer Alex Nylander in that scenario though.

I would welcome both of them on PTO.
No. They are. I'm a good source. I broke the OEL/Tanev signings. I was wrong about Parron though.
 
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Brobust

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
7,183
6,565
we have a large fanbase; the number of stupids is also going to be large.

Gustav Forsling was literally a waiver wire pick up they took a chance on and he became a number 1 dman for them maybe thats why he gave them a discount?

I understand that and I do like the idea of buying low. But there is so much pressure when the team loses two or three in a row that guys like can never be given opportunities here. They can never be allowed to play and make mistakes and develop.
 
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WTFMAN99

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
34,083
12,193
Its a very good point. Pietrangelo may not want to come here due to COVID and perhaps his family couldnt cross the border. Hard for me to put much blame there. But i felt Tanev was the perfect fit in 2020 over Brodie.

Ekblad has injuries but will be interesting if he gets to the market.

If we are talking trade, one guy i want is Brandt Clarke. He could be Makar-lite.

Pietrangelo has a pretty big home in King city, I had heard he would have strongly considered us if we approached him with a legit offer.
 

ER89

Registered User
Jul 25, 2018
4,698
4,731
I understand that and I do like the idea of buying low. But there is so much pressure when the team loses two or three in a row that guys like can never be given opportunities here. They can never be allowed to play and make mistakes and develop.
Bullshit. We gave years to lilly sandin marincin et al.
 
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Brobust

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
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Bullshit. We gave years to lilly sandin marincin et al.

Have they been given actual opportunity? Sandin and Liljegren have been mostly relegated to the 3rd pair, and have never been given a chance to actually grow into larger roles.
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,978
8,998
Lol does this satisfy your itch to be proven wrong:


"From a tax perspective in Canada, a signing bonus is simple: the amount of the bonus is treated as ordinary employment income, and is taxable in the year received. But, when a U.S.-resident athlete receives a signing bonus to play in the NHL for a Canadian team, a special quirk of the Canada-U.S. income tax treaty kicks in.

The treaty provides that a signing bonus paid by a Canadian NHL team to a U.S.-resident player would be taxable in Canada – but that tax may not exceed 15 per cent of the gross amount of the payment."

This article pretty much should put to rest this nonsense on taxes.


here is the answer to the tax question:

From a tax perspective in Canada, a signing bonus is simple: the amount of the bonus is treated as ordinary employment income, and is taxable in the year received. But, when a U.S.-resident athlete receives a signing bonus to play in the NHL for a Canadian team, a special quirk of the Canada-U.S. income tax treaty kicks in.

The treaty provides that a signing bonus paid by a Canadian NHL team to a U.S.-resident player would be taxable in Canada – but that tax may not exceed 15 per cent of the gross amount of the payment.


Again. This has been covered in depth. It’s possible. But unlikely. You have to be gone X amount of time, not have any property/long term rentals/ kids in school. It is effected by endorsements etc.

Think tank theoreticals have nothing on actual professionals in the field and real world results.

The same brilliant minds told us that Tavares can do it, but he is now in court with the CRA.


Remember? This article again says that if he puts his money in Joke RCAs, sells his house, moves his family at like 40, refused to have roots of any kind. He can in theory get his taxes down to 43% which is still not 39%

And he STILL got sued. I guess he didn’t read the article? I


Petrys agent came out and said it was a big factor in Canada (he still chose Montreal)

Think tank exercises in articles do not trump actual clients and actual results.

There is NO evidence of any actual agents players gms saying that they get a tax advantage or actually taking one.

You would expect tons of American players coming here for millions extra right?

Edit. To be clear. I am not saying that I am a tax expert. I am saying I have spent years (on my drives for work) listening/reading real world experts opinions which are almost universally that the no state tax advantages are insurmountable. Tangible and indisputable.
 
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phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
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Pietrangelo has a pretty big home in King city, I had heard he would have strongly considered us if we approached him with a legit offer.

Makes it even more mindboggling. $8.8M to get Pietrangelo, and Brodie, Kerfoot and Simmonds make up $12M. Could have replaced Kerfoot, Simmonds and Holl for league minimum to $1M players while getting draft picks back for Holl and Kerfoot.

Rielly-Pietrangelo
Muzzin-Liljegren
Dermott-Bogosian
Sandin
 
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WTFMAN99

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
34,083
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Makes it even more mindboggling. $8.8M to get Pietrangelo, and Brodie, Kerfoot and Simmonds make up $12M. Could have replaced Kerfoot, Simmonds and Holl for league minimum to $1M players while getting draft picks back for Holl and Kerfoot.

Rielly-Pietrangelo
Muzzin-Liljegren
Dermott-Bogosian
Sandin

I think we likely come in at 9-9.75M range.
 

uncleben

Global Moderator
Dec 4, 2008
14,845
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Acton, Ontario
Makes it even more mindboggling. $8.8M to get Pietrangelo, and Brodie, Kerfoot and Simmonds make up $12M. Could have replaced Kerfoot, Simmonds and Holl for league minimum to $1M players while getting draft picks back for Holl and Kerfoot.

Rielly-Pietrangelo
Muzzin-Liljegren
Dermott-Bogosian
Sandin
While that would have been real nice, 'it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation

One of this team's biggest critiques is big contracts to stars and then filling the gaps with cheap extra parts
This time they didn't take the big contract and split the money across complimentary role players and we know how that worked out...

(I will also say, the version of Brodie at the time was worth the money)
 

LeafSteel

GO LEAFS GO!!!
Mar 5, 2014
6,190
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Toronto
A trade for McGroarty fell apart not long ago because the team trading with the Jets didn’t like what they heard from McGroarty’s camp about guarantees over ice time and a spot in the NHL

Wishful thinking translation: he’s just being a dick to force his way to Toronto.

Could easily see him as a 3RW to start the season. Knies-McGroarty would be a huge line.
 
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SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
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Wishful thinking translation: he’s just being a dick to force his way to Toronto.

Could easily see him as a 3RW to start the season. Knies-McGroarty would be a huge line.

We already have enough entitled players that are bigger than the team... Why do we want another selfish potential headache on our hands? He's played 0 NHL games and wants his ice time and insurances... yeesh. What if he struggles and refuses to report to the AHL?

It does feel like a Robertson for McGroarty helps both players/teams in some way but that's about it.
 
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ER89

Registered User
Jul 25, 2018
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Have they been given actual opportunity? Sandin and Liljegren have been mostly relegated to the 3rd pair, and have never been given a chance to actually grow into larger roles.
Yes we have they haven't grabbed it by the horns and that's on them
 
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IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
16,458
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We already have enough entitled players that are bigger than the team... Why do we want another selfish potential headache on our hands? He's played 0 NHL games and wants his ice time and insurances... yeesh. What if he struggles and refuses to report to the AHL?

It does feel like a Robertson for McGroarty helps both teams in some way but that's about it.
My thoughts exactly. Don't want any part of him.
 

Torontonian

Registered User
Jun 24, 2013
4,652
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Toronto
I like this too though i bet Anaheim could get a 1st+ for him at the deadline if he replicates last season.
Probably, but at some point, these rebuilding teams need to turn the page and start trying to win / use picks to build their team. There best finish has been 23rd in the league in the past 5 years.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
54,452
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Have they been given actual opportunity? Sandin and Liljegren have been mostly relegated to the 3rd pair, and have never been given a chance to actually grow into larger roles.

Sandin and Liljegren have both been given plenty of opportunity to move up in the lineup. Sandin in particular struggled every time and his skating was exposed. It's a big reason the Leafs went to get McCabe and dumped him soon after.

Liljegren has done better with more minutes, but always tends to get injured when he finally starts to play consistently top 4 minutes, and then has to play catch up. He had a high ankle sprain last season and those always tend to really screw up the player for the season.
 
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phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
12,703
8,619
While that would have been real nice, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation

One of this team's biggest critiques is big contracts to stars and then filling the gaps with cheap extra parts
This time they didn't take the big contract and split the money across complimentary role players and we know how that worked out...

(I will also say, the version of Brodie at the time was worth the money)

The criticism was it was all spent on forwards. Anyone criticizing the hardest thing to get in the league in a top pairing RHD in Pietrangelo over the likes of sharing money for guys like Brodie, Holl, Kerfoot and Simmonds (all guys who are no longer Leafs) should give their head a shake (not directed towards you but the paying Pietrangelo detractors). But this is a no brainer. You pay for elite talent and fill in the rest.

Sure easier said than done but this is where you supplement with drafting and developing, something the Leafs didnt do well over that time. If it didnt work, it wouldnt be because of Pietrangelo taking up the cap, it would have been the same problem we had for 4-5 years, no top 6 forwards, top 4 D or a starting goalie on entry levels deals coming up with consistency. Like Dallas, Tampa, New York, and Carolina did and do. And if you cant do it there, you need your pro scouts to step up like they did in Florida and Colorado. Leafs failed at 3 levels during that period. Tre needs to drastically improve in those areas if this core has a shot.

I disagree. Brodie had one good season in 2021-22. Not saying he didnt have value but he couldnt hold a candle to Pietrangelo and that is the point. Pietrangelo is miles better than Brodie and that is who he is replacing. This issue is can you replace Kerfoot's 33 points per 82 games and penalty killing and Holl's minutes which should not be hard to do at all if you are a competent front office.
 
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LeafSteel

GO LEAFS GO!!!
Mar 5, 2014
6,190
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Toronto
We already have enough entitled players that are bigger than the team... Why do we want another selfish potential headache on our hands? He's played 0 NHL games and wants his ice time and insurances... yeesh. What if he struggles and refuses to report to the AHL?

It does feel like a Robertson for McGroarty helps both players/teams in some way but that's about it.
My post is half serious to be honest.

We don’t know what’s going on there, but agreed, the optics on him isn’t great.

Having said that, we’ve paid maximum and over market for lazy entitled players that play soft.

I would be less worried to take on an ELC for a player who has shown to play hard and can be another power forward for us if he continues his development.

We’ve had worse, including presently.

Kid wants an opportunity and we have room in the lineup to give it to him. Might be novel, having a player in our lineup eager for a chance.

We’ve done worse, and if Robertson is adamant in getting out, this is the kind of move we need to make.
 
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