GDT: Trades & Free Agency -- Off-season edition

[LaPlante94]

Holy ****, you sound like a slighted ex girlfriend, it's not your ******* money

Pull your head out of your ass, 90-100 point line driving matchup capable wingers don't just magically appear, you can count them on one hand

Just because you've lost your mind and got all emotional doesn't change any of those facts

You're right, it's not my money, but when fans like me and many others who have spent money to watch this team fail over and over again we are allowed to have opinions on players when they get everything they wanted.

Maybe get off your knees and stop kissing the asses of these players who don't know you just because you think they are elite because they get to play with possibly the best goal scorer to ever play the game, or because you read some graph that says they are some top level player.

He has won nothing and wanting to move on from this core that has won nothing and who are pushing 30 has nothing to do with being emotional. You are the one upset people want this core split up like you are buddies with the guy and acting like a play driving winger is the hardest thing in the world to find when we got another one already who can score 40 goals and possibly another one on the way next year if he's not on the Knights. Oh wait, we could probably get another play driving winger in a trade if we wanted to as well. For someone who likes facts, you sure like to ignore playoff records or Marners numbers when the series starts to tighten up when we need our highly paid offensive play driving players. 2 goals or less in how many playoff games now? Is it like 13 of our last 14 playoff games? Quite the investment we've made for all that play driving. Maybe if we spread some of that money around to get some other play drivers on other lines we could score more than 2 goals since our top guys don't have it in them to carry the load.

 

[WillNy29]

What a take, so stupid I’m speechless……..

you literally gave a coles notes description of communism; the even distribution of resources regardless of contribution

 

[meefer]

The Toronto/Nashville scenarios centering around Marner and Saros are intriguing, but I am always leary about goalies and trades. But, that's me. I can understand why many like the idea of Saros. I might lean towards a younger 2C option as the main return, but I'd suspect that would be a 'Wright' type, a player not yet established and it is our hope that the player turns out to be a solid acquisition.

Marner's 10.9 contract should easily cover the costs of two upgrades on D. My choices would be Demelo and Roy. Demelo would be a solid partner for Rielly, McCabe partnering with Roy would be a strong 2nd pair, with Benoit and Liljegren holding 3rd pair minutes.

I would be wary of introducing too many young players into the line up at one time, even with an improved D. While I believe Robertson has 20+ goals in him, that Minten can evolve into a quality 3C, and that Cowan has the highest ceiling of the 3, it's a big ask to have 3 young players engaged in playoff hockey at the same time. I’m thinking Tre might include Minten/Robertson in a Marner deal to maximize a return that can be used today.

 

[Kiwi]

It's not about emotion. Trading Marner is the pragmatic decision. Signing him is not a reasonable option, so you're left with letting him play another season before walking away for nothing, or getting what you can.

I'm not even sure letting him play next year is a reasonable option. The Shanahan/Dubas model failed. It doesn't work, so wasting next year while Matthews and Nylander burn a year off their primes doesn't seem like good idea.

At no point have I said in here we shouldn't trade Marner, what I have a problem with is people diminishing his abilities and this opinion he's the reason we can't win anything

He's an extremely good player, he's got value so instead of getting all emotional and wanting to run him out of town for nothing let's talk about the good things we think he could return instead

Technically, as fans, it is our money. Fans have every right to criticize a player for their contract because it affects the team they cheer for on the ice.

He negotiated that deal, management could have said no so its not his fault he was overpaid it was team management having zero spine or will to fight that did that

 

[Kiwi]

You're right, it's not my money, but when fans like me and many others who have spent money to watch this team fail over and over again we are allowed to have opinions on players when they get everything they wanted.

Maybe get off your knees and stop kissing the asses of these players who don't know you just because you think they are elite because they get to play with possibly the best goal scorer to ever play the game, or because you read some graph that says they are some top level player.

He has won nothing and wanting to move on from this core that has won nothing and who are pushing 30 has nothing to do with being emotional. You are the one upset people want this core split up like you are buddies with the guy and acting like a play driving winger is the hardest thing in the world to find when we got another one already who can score 40 goals and possibly another one on the way next year if he's not on the Knights. Oh wait, we could probably get another play driving winger in a trade if we wanted to as well. For someone who likes facts, you sure like to ignore playoff records or Marners numbers when the series starts to tighten up when we need our highly paid offensive play driving players. 2 goals or less in how many playoff games now? Is it like 13 of our last 14 playoff games? Quite the investment we've made for all that play driving. Maybe if we spread some of that money around to get some other play drivers on other lines we could score more than 2 goals since our top guys don't have it in them to carry the load.

God damn that's a lot of words that could easily be summed up as

"My team lost so I'm so emotionally incontinent I have to blame somebody no matter how stupid it is"

Management overpaid Marner, just like the rest of the core and Tre is now going to try fixing the previous regimes **** ups

 

[LaPlante94]

God damn that's a lot of words that could easily be summed up as

"My team lost so I'm so emotionally incontinent I have to blame somebody no matter how stupid it is"

Management overpaid Marner, just like the rest of the core and Tre is now going to try fixing the previous regimes **** ups

He is overpaid and will be overpaid again. So idk why you are whining about people wanting him traded and giving a lame excuse that he's a 90-100 point play driving winger and then calling others emotional because you're upset they don't value his abilities when it's only ever been about this core losing over and over again and not winning anything.

 

[seanlinden]

I think this is the biggest questions with the Marner trade.
Do we
A. Make a hockey trade and center it around acquiring the the best possible player in exchange.
B. Make a trade for a package. 3-4 good pieces but no great pieces.

Somewhere in the middle.

You've gotta identify the 3-4 "holes" on this team...

#2 Centre, Top 6 Offensive Winger, Top 1-2 Right Shot Defenceman, Long Term Goalie.

Use Marner to fill as many of them as possible. In a perfect world, you'd fill 2 of those. In a likely scenario, you fill 1 and get some futures ammo.

 

[Martin Skoula]

1-No body know except leafs organisation whats Marner really want and its certainly possible than toronto start next season with both marner and jt in the line up

2- for me treliving already started to change leafs culture with move he did but his work is not done.

Dubas was all about skill/skill/ skill and treliving is more about bringing player with an attittude coming with and playimg hard... Domi, bertuzzi, reaves, edmundson.

Name the skill players Dubas added

 

[rumman]

you literally gave a coles notes description of communism; the even distribution of resources regardless of contribution

It’s not communism, it’s cP management Einstein……….

 

[NCoRe]

For me its too good to not see Marner going to NSH

Something like


Saros
Fabbro


Marner
Villeneuve

 

[613Leafer]

Name the skill players Dubas added

In terms of guys he brought in for their "skill", Petan, Malgin, Kerfoot, Lindholm, Ennis, Spezza, Nick Shore, Aberg, Thornton, Barabanov, Agostino, etc were some of the bottom 6 additions during Dubas' first few years. Barrie was his big D acquisition in the Kadri trade. Other pieces already there that he continued to try to build around were guys like Johnsson and Kapanen, leaving us with very little physicality up front.

Guys like Timashov, Brooks, etc were decently long runways to try and establish themselves in the NHL, whereas a guy like Mason Marchment (who he later traded for Malgin) only ever had 4 NHL games with the Leafs.

He obviously had some physical players he added (eg Hyman, Clifford, etc), but the first ~3 years in particular, he really seemed to focus on skill, and loved rolling the dice on ~5'9-5'11 forwards (and not the Trevor Moore kinds that are built like fire hydrants and physical, he traded that one away). He shifted after that and last year in particular, added Lafferty, Acciari, Aston-Reese, etc to a bottom 6 forward group that already had Kampf.

Also looking at his drafting, there was a massive focus on small skilled forwards (eg Robertson, Abbruzzese, Abramov, SDA, Holmberg, Kizimov, Stotts, Hirvonen, Tverberg, Voit, Schingoethe, Miller, Miettinen, etc). Pretty sure Knies was the first forward he drafted (in his 4th draft) who was 6'1 or bigger.

 

[Legion34]

For me its too good to not see Marner going to NSH

Something like


Saros
Fabbro


Marner
Villeneuve

I don’t think that’s anywhere near enough. Fabbro is a healthy scratch often and a Lilly level D.

I don’t see it from Nash unless we have a forward we really like from them? I don’t see them having the assets.

Unless we can take a 1st and trade it for a player like a necas or something.

 

[thusk]

In terms of guys he brought in for their "skill", Petan, Malgin, Kerfoot, Lindholm, Ennis, Spezza, Nick Shore, Aberg, Thornton, Barabanov, Agostino, etc were some of the bottom 6 additions during Dubas' first few years. Barrie was his big D acquisition in the Kadri trade. Other pieces already there that he continued to try to build around were guys like Johnsson and Kapanen, leaving us with very little physicality up front.

Guys like Timashov, Brooks, etc were decently long runways to try and establish themselves in the NHL, whereas a guy like Mason Marchment (who he later traded for Malgin) only ever had 4 NHL games with the Leafs.

He obviously had some physical players he added (eg Hyman, Clifford, etc), but the first ~3 years in particular, he really seemed to focus on skill, and loved rolling the dice on ~5'9-5'11 forwards (and not the Trevor Moore kinds that are built like fire hydrants and physical, he traded that one away). He shifted after that and last year in particular, added Lafferty, Acciari, Aston-Reese, etc to a bottom 6 forward group that already had Kampf.

Also looking at his drafting, there was a massive focus on small skilled forwards (eg Robertson, Abbruzzese, Abramov, SDA, Holmberg, Kizimov, Stotts, Hirvonen, Tverberg, Voit, Schingoethe, Miller, Miettinen, etc). Pretty sure Knies was the first forward he drafted (in his 4th draft) who was 6'1 or bigger.

i can't resume it better but you forget the biggest name and biggest Dubas mistake with skill player and leafs still paying for this... John Tavares

 

[Warden of the North]

Curious if the Elias Pettersson drama could result in an EP40 for MM16 blockbuster. Just putting that out there and hoping the radio and podcast chatter can piggy back off this.

In a vacuum, sure.

I think I'm done with the "half the cap in 4 guys" narrative though.

 

[Commander Clueless]

you literally gave a coles notes description of communism; the even distribution of resources regardless of contribution

Nope. Talking about a billion dollar company evening out the spending on the different required areas instead of spending everything on 4 forwards.

Diversifying the portfolio and stuff.

Capitalism bro.

 

[hamzarocks]

Holy ****, you sound like a slighted ex girlfriend, it's not your ******* money

Pull your head out of your ass, 90-100 point line driving matchup capable wingers don't just magically appear, you can count them on one hand

Just because you've lost your mind and got all emotional doesn't change any of those facts

No one is trading for marner with 1 year and needing a huge extension as a superstar piece

His value due to NMC, declining performance last 2 years, horrible playoffs this year, and generally being a non top 10 player ever in his career makes him a guy that wont bring back what a "90-100 pt selke finalist winger would get"

He will get less than Eichel got at the time. Eichel had better league wide perception, was a bit younger, signed to term at lower cap hit

A 1st + B+ prospect + a little more is his value as a 1 year asset

Marner also isnt a line driving winger. He doesnt produce or elevate his wingers as we saw this year. He plays great with high end talent but we havent seen him capable of driving a line with robertson + jarnkrok or knies + McMann

 

[CincoHolio]

The Leafs went so long without any high end talent that now fans are frightened to give them up even when it's clear that it will help balance the roster.

People need to get over this FOMO mentality with players. You know what I fear missing out on?: My favourite team winning the f***ing Stanley Cup.

 

[TMLAM34]

I see a lot of Marner to Seattle proposals and I’m surprised none of them even mention Beniers. Took a pretty big step backwards this past season but I do like the skill set and compete level from him.

To Toronto: Matthew Beniers + Jamie Oleksiak
To Seattle: Mitch Marner

 

[dubplatepressure]

I don’t think that’s anywhere near enough. Fabbro is a healthy scratch often and a Lilly level D.

I don’t see it from Nash unless we have a forward we really like from them? I don’t see them having the assets.

Unless we can take a 1st and trade it for a player like a necas or something.

I agree. Goalies are voodoo - its so rare for them to maintain high end output for more than 2-3 seasons. If anything this year's proven that you don't need a top-3 tender to compete. It doesn't hurt, but much more important is a high quality blueline that limits chances. That's what we should be investing in with a trade for MM IMO. Fabbro isn't it.

On Saros specifically - I'd rather someone younger if we are going main-piece goalie in a trade.

 

[ToneDog]

I see a lot of Marner to Seattle proposals and I’m surprised none of them even mention Beniers. Took a pretty big step backwards this past season but I do like the skill set and compete level from him.

To Toronto: Matthew Beniers + Jamie Oleksiak
To Seattle: Mitch Marner

Remember when some laughed at Marner for Byfield and Clarke proposals? Good times.

 

[TMLAM34]

Remember when some laughed at Marner for Byfield and Clarke proposals? Good times.

Clarke has the potential to be a top pairing franchise defenceman, something Oleksiak isn’t and not even close to being one. I personally think Oleksiak is overrated, I find him in the same category as someone like McCabe.

Also not sure if you were referencing to me with your comment or not but my proposal with LA was Clarke, Dubois and a 2nd for Marner as taking that Dubois contract is a major risk along with the known attitude issues.

 

[ToneDog]

Clarke has the potential to be a top pairing franchise defenceman, something Oleksiak isn’t and not even close to being one. I personally think Oleksiak is overrated, I find him in the same category as someone like McCabe.

Also not sure if you were referencing to me with your comment or not but my proposal with LA was Clarke, Dubois and a 2nd for Marner as taking that Dubois contract is a major risk along with the known attitude issues.

Nope, I generally agree with your posts. No way Kings trade Byfield and Carke for Marner today. I'm not sure they would a year ago.

 

[thusk]

I think hte problem is potentialyl even more "Basic" than that.

The Leafs need to get away, culturally, from going as far as "the big 4", or even, the big 3 will take them, and move towarsd a much more team-cohesive environment where everyone has the same expectations.

There's lots of "not good" reasons to trade Marner over Nylander -- the contract situations, the media BS, etc.... but there's also a pretty good reason, and it just comes down to the style that they play.

Marner is somewhat one-dimensional, he's a pass-first player through and through. He's very easy to "staple" to Auston Matthews right wing, and instead of being a 2-line team, you're now a 1-line team.

Nylander & Matthews aren't neccessarily natural linemates, as they both like to shoot the puck; and each is capable of generating offence on their own, whereas Marner needs a finisher.

It's not about emotion. Trading Marner is the pragmatic decision. Signing him is not a reasonable option, so you're left with letting him play another season before walking away for nothing, or getting what you can.

I'm not even sure letting him play next year is a reasonable option. The Shanahan/Dubas model failed. It doesn't work, so wasting next year while Matthews and Nylander burn a year off their primes doesn't seem like good idea.

People reacting like if Marner is the only reason why lost. If Toronto lost, its because overal everyone was not enough good.

Matthews get offensively 1 game where he producing

Nylander scored 3 goal... okay it's great of stats sheet...
-1 of his goal was mcaviy who scored on his own goal trying for no reason to block his shot.
-1 was in a breakaway when boston had no choice to force the play late in 3
-1 was result of carlo felt on the ice with the puck going right on matthews stick to get an easy 2v1 in front of the net.

Scoring 2 lucky bounce goal it is really the difference having a great series and get the target on your back?

Tavares outside of his goal and ot drive, did you saw him for anything in the series? i dont know how many time leafs lost puck possession after jt touching the puck.

He's not the only player on that pp who created absolutly nothing

How many goal leafs bottom 6 scored? 1 goal and dont tell me its because they didn't cap space to spend on it, Boston didn't had more more on their bottom 6.

so personally i dont bite on it... absolutly need to trade marner and that will change everything. unstead he absolutly want to be out of toronto or asking an phenomenal $$$, if they trading marner for me, it's not to get free money or whatever, it should be to bring in a great D and nothing else.

Sometime when you thinking youre doing the best thing, its not always the case... # Tavares, huberdeau/ Weagar... Everyone thinking is was great move when they did it and now like one of worst move in NHL.

 

[TMLAM34]

Nope, I generally agree with your posts. No way Kings trade Byfield and Carke for Marner today. I'm not sure they would a year ago.

I mean acquiring Byfield and Clarke for Marner would be fantastic don’t get me wrong lol, it just wouldn’t ever happen.

I’m sure people will have their opinion on Marner for Beniers and Oleksiak as well but to be honest if you can extend Marner, you take him over Beniers any day at the moment. And like I said, I would put Oleksiak in the McCabe category which isn’t a make or break for a deal. You can find that caliber defenceman in free agency.

Beniers is up for contract renewal, he’s a prime candidate for one of those 8 years, 7.5 million dollar deals which means we’re actually gaining salary from this trade and loosing the best player but at least we distribute Marners salary between two people and help change the culture.

 

[aingefan]

I see a lot of Marner to Seattle proposals and I’m surprised none of them even mention Beniers. Took a pretty big step backwards this past season but I do like the skill set and compete level from him.

To Toronto: Matthew Beniers + Jamie Oleksiak
To Seattle: Mitch Marner

That’s an interesting one too.
My preference is SEA’s 1st as the premium asset. Get one of the high upside D in the draft.