GDT: Trades & Free Agency -- Off-season edition

[thusk]

Yes, it is a business. In that business you want to attract and retain top talent. That talent sees how you treat your players. Giving a player the C and NMC clause and the pressuring them to waive it is not a good business move.

You get much more for Marner in a deal than you would for Tavares. I would choose to move Marner. I also feel like he is a negative contributor to culture here.

You post his playoff stats. I countered with a breakdown of early vs later in the series. His stats drop the most of the core four as the game become more meaningful. JT's actually get better in the back half of series.

1-Treliving or Bérubé didn't sign , gave a NMC and gave the C to tavares. It was Dubas/Keefe.

2- To move jt or event marner, he still need to accept it whatever what... so not sure what's the deal here

3- Yes for sure marner value is higher than JT but jt contract is like also by far worst than marner contract for a guy who just becoming worst year after year. Leafs dont necessairly need the value im return of marner, but more the salary cap to upgrade the D with couple of good option on market.

4-being trash 4 and be better 3 game for me its not different than being good 4 game and struggling 3 game. At the end whatever what' you need to win 4 game.

5- and thats dropping rwg vs playoff, it is really marner fault if he was producing more than nylander or jt in reg?!?!?! We can talk about salary yeah but next season salary will be basically the same for those 3.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Yes, it is a business. In that business you want to attract and retain top talent. That talent sees how you treat your players. Giving a player the C and NMC clause and the pressuring them to waive it is not a good business move.

You get much more for Marner in a deal than you would for Tavares. I would choose to move Marner. I also feel like he is a negative contributor to culture here.

You post his playoff stats. I countered with a breakdown of early vs later in the series. His stats drop the most of the core four as the game become more meaningful. JT's actually get better in the back half of series.

Treliving didn't sign Tavares or Marner, you can trade them without any consequence. Vegas trading guys all the time even 1-2 years into extensions...guys still go there.

San Jose stripped Marleau and Thornton of the captaincy and signed guys no problem in their cup window. I have a crazier one, Arizona missed payroll a couple times and guys still signed there.

You can trade anyone, if you're a good team, players will come. In Arizona's case, they're a shit team and guys still signed. Myth you can't trade JT is non-existent unless you have no balls as a GM.

 

[conFABulator]

1-Treliving or Bérubé didn't sign , gave a NMC and gave the C to tavares. It was Dubas/Keefe.

2- To move jt or event marner, he still need to accept it whatever what... so not sure what's the deal here

3- Yes for sure marner value is higher than JT but jt contract is like also by far worst than marner contract for a guy who just becoming worst year after year. Leafs dont necessairly need the value im return of marner, but more the salary cap to upgrade the D with couple of good option on market.

4-being trash 4 and be better 3 game for me its not different than being good 4 game and struggling 3 game. At the end whatever what' you need to win 4 game.

5- and thats dropping rwg vs playoff, it is really marner fault if he was producing more than nylander or jt in reg?!?!?! We can talk about salary yeah but next season salary will be basically the same for those 3.

1. We obviously won't agree on how a team should treat their captain and how that treatment will be viewed around the league.

2. I think Marner might welcome a move out of town. Things have not gone well for him PR-wise and he has even hired a private security firm to protect him from the local media. He doesn't have to waive, but he can be asked and he is not the captain of here on a hometown discount on his current contract.

3. Yes, JT's contract is worse than Marner, but his next one will be much, much better. I would rather keep JT and then re-sign him for $2m or $3m per year than keep Marner and have to pay him $12M or let him walk for nothing. The return for Marner will be pieces + prospects or pics + cap space. That is my preference.

4. I think most people realize that scoring in the back half of the series is indicative of a player being able to play when the going gets tough.

5. I am not a Marner basher, but IMO we have to re-allocate cap space from F to D and Marner is the best way to do that next year and in the years after. If there were no cap, I would be happy to keep him.

IMO Marner is part of the culture problem here. Nylander tell him to " stop f$#king crying" seemed more like last straw rather than a heat of the moment things.

 

[LaPlante94]

its good point but marner became leafs fan scapegoat.

trading marner... okay do it really change thing for the best? Marner still a point per game player in playoff playing toughest matchup amount all leafs player

next season with nylander salary raise. if he didn't play well 1st 3-4 game when he will start to play against tougher matchup, who do you thinking will become the marner 2.0 with target on his back for all leafs fail?

last 3 years
4-8 number of goal against tampa top 6
1-2 vs florida top 6
1-1 vs boston top 6

leafs when nylander was on the ice,scored 6 goal vs 11 against in 22 game against opposite top 6

marner
tampa 8-2
florida 1-4
boston top 6 2-2

leafs when marner was on the ice, scored 11 goal vs 8 against in 25 game against opposite top 6

it is possible if marner moving, than nylander will just becoming worst next playoff playing more vs top 6 and less against 3/4th line? If its the case like i think it will, the same exact story will restart with nylander unstead of marner...

The ones who defend Marner and try and his playoff points from Games 1-3/4 are the same ones who love to blame the depth scoring. So trading the 1 player who is gonna get another pay raise and currently has an 11 mil cap hit to spend on depth scoring or puck movers on the back end is bad how?

You also realize Marner has played with another 11 million dollar man and a Rocket Richard winner for all these playoff series except this last one. They aren't matching up their best players against Marner. Nylander is a much better skater and shooter so he can create for himself. Marner looked completely lost without Matthews and if people are gonna use Marner matching up against Coyle as a good enough reason why Marner was that bad then idk what to say. 5v5 they have the same production all those years and Marner has a few games on him. PP is the only thing that separates them points wise Nylander has also shown when the games start to tighten up he can still be a factor in games while Marner only seems to be a factor early on when the games are wide open and blowouts are happening.

 

[Americanadian]

Yes, it is a business. In that business you want to attract and retain top talent. That talent sees how you treat your players.

This is why no one wants to play in Vegas. They haven't been able to sign a UFA since Hanifin.

 

[Kiwi]

I think the main difference between Matthews and Marner is Matthews is a 1C and those are much harder to find over a top line playmaking winger. The way some talk about Marner you'd think he was winning scoring titles and MVPs and all that stuff, especially with his contract demands.

Marner is a 90-100 point player who has gotten Selke votes

He's a ******* good player, he should be highly valued by us and the rest of the league

This is bull****, I understand there's frustration with the team and Marner and people want him traded but let's not pretend he hasn't been an extremely good player for us and he's the reason we couldn't get over the hump

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Marner is a 90-100 point player who has gotten Selke votes

He's a ******* good player, he should be highly valued by us and the rest of the league

This is bull****, I understand there's frustration with the team and Marner and people want him traded but let's not pretend he hasn't been an extremely good player for us and he's the reason we couldn't get over the hump

I was going to say the same thing. He's a star player. Given this team great years. He's also a human being. He shouldn't need people to "defend" him, because people should show some bloody class, and thank him for his contributions, and wish him well

 

[dubplatepressure]

From Blues stand point or ours?
Blues might take it as salary is about the same and MM fits their retool age better.
Parayko and Binnington still got a few good years left in them, esp with 4 Nations coming, Binnington will probably play his best as he knows it is his job to lose for Team Canada #1.

From ours. I’m not sold on them as main pieces for MM… both come with risk. We wouldn’t want to trade a contract that restricts us for 2 more. I suppose if that was all or the best deal on the table I would probably reluctantly do it, but it’s a tough one for me.

 

[thusk]

1. We obviously won't agree on how a team should treat their captain and how that treatment will be viewed around the league.

2. I think Marner might welcome a move out of town. Things have not gone well for him PR-wise and he has even hired a private security firm to protect him from the local media. He doesn't have to waive, but he can be asked and he is not the captain of here on a hometown discount on his current contract.

3. Yes, JT's contract is worse than Marner, but his next one will be much, much better. I would rather keep JT and then re-sign him for $2m or $3m per year than keep Marner and have to pay him $12M or let him walk for nothing. The return for Marner will be pieces + prospects or pics + cap space. That is my preference.

4. I think most people realize that scoring in the back half of the series is indicative of a player being able to play when the going gets tough.

5. I am not a Marner basher, but IMO we have to re-allocate cap space from F to D and Marner is the best way to do that next year and in the years after. If there were no cap, I would be happy to keep him.

IMO Marner is part of the culture problem here. Nylander tell him to " stop f$#king crying" seemed more like last straw rather than a heat of the moment things.

1- For marner, hes not the 1st guy who need to do this. Its happened to Sam Girars

Price felt on alcohol to face pressure.

2- Nylander when he will start to face top opposite line again and over again unstead of 3rd and 4th line, what do you think it will happen? I'm pretty sure he will becoming the next Marner for leafs fan with his 11.5M. The pressure last 4-5 years was all on marner and matthews shoulder. Now with a huge contract, pressure will raise up drastically for Nylander and he will need to perform or it will be hard for him. Its easy to talk when it's not on you all the spotlight are and its not about you media will talk about a year until next playoff if you fail in playoff. Now nylander will also be under spotlight

3- So if Marner is gone and thats affecting nylander game, Toronto will not be a better team

4 Marner is not about culture or whatever, its all about dealing with the pressure, its mindset.

 

[conFABulator]

1- For marner, hes not the 1st guy who need to do this. Its happened to Sam Girars

Price felt on alcohol to face pressure.

2- Nylander when he will start to face top opposite line again and over again unstead of 3rd and 4th line, what do you think it will happen? I'm pretty sure he will becoming the next Marner for leafs fan with his 11.5M. The pressure last 4-5 years was all on marner and matthews shoulder. Now with a huge contract, pressure will raise up drastically for Nylander and he will need to perform or it will be hard for him. Its easy to talk when it's not on you all the spotlight are and its not about you media will talk about a year until next playoff if you fail in playoff. Now nylander will also be under spotlight

3- So if Marner is gone and thats affecting nylander game, Toronto will not be a better team

4 Marner is not about culture or whatever, its all about dealing with the pressure, its mindset.

I don't know exactly what you were trying to say with those first couple of points.

I think your third point was an assumption that Nylander would be given Marner's opportunities and he will crumble and cave like Mitch does? It's an assumption and I think Willy's PO performance shows that he improves as the games get tighter and more meaningful.

As for your last point, I don't believe Marner handles pressure well at all and this is a big part of the culture we need to improve.

 

[Gabriel426]

From ours. I’m not sold on them as main pieces for MM… both come with risk. We wouldn’t want to trade a contract that restricts us for 2 more. I suppose if that was all or the best deal on the table I would probably reluctantly do it, but it’s a tough one for me.

Parayko check a lot of boxes for the Leafs.
Now I don’t think he is a Norris level Dman but definitely someone that could handle top pairing minutes.
Binnington will be really good as I have a feeling that he wants to take the No.1 Team Canada spot and run with it.
The 1st rounder is just another 1st.
MM will always be the best player in that trade unless Drai and him switch teams.

 

[thusk]

I don't know exactly what you were trying to say with those first couple of points.

I think your third point was an assumption that Nylander would be given Marner's opportunities and he will crumble and cave like Mitch does? It's an assumption and I think Willy's PO performance shows that he improves as the games get tighter and more meaningful.

As for your last point, I don't believe Marner handles pressure well at all and this is a big part of the culture we need to improve.

i just saying nylander played easier matchup than marner and nobody played harder matchup than marner, including Matthews. If marner is gone, who will play those matchup ? The fact he had succes with less responsabilities doesn't mean it will still the case...

 

[Mickey Marner]

There’s no point in paying to dump Tavares, we saw how it turned out with Marleau. We’re not winning the cup next year, just eat the 11 million and move on.

 

[TMLAM34]

Wasn’t very keen on Dakota Joshua originally and who knows if he’d want to come back here but maybe with Berube here now who coached him in St. Louis there’s a possibility.

 

[Gaberd2608]

Parayko check a lot of boxes for the Leafs.
Now I don’t think he is a Norris level Dman but definitely someone that could handle top pairing minutes.
Binnington will be really good as I have a feeling that he wants to take the No.1 Team Canada spot and run with it.
The 1st rounder is just another 1st.
MM will always be the best player in that trade unless Drai and him switch teams.

Binnington makes me nervous. Rather a forward and look to find a goalie in another move.

 

[tony135420]

I was going to say the same thing. He's a star player. Given this team great years. He's also a human being. He shouldn't need people to "defend" him, because people should show some bloody class, and thank him for his contributions, and wish him well

Agreed he's a star player and he's been a big part of the regular season success. However, it's difficult to argue his subpar playoff performances. It's not just marner, it falls at the feet of AM, Nylander, JT, Reilly and marner. The difference I see with the leafs and teams that make it deep in the playoffs is the intangibles, grit and edgy play comes from their core. They don't need to bring in support players to provide it.

 

[LaPlante94]

Marner is a 90-100 point player who has gotten Selke votes

He's a ******* good player, he should be highly valued by us and the rest of the league

This is bull****, I understand there's frustration with the team and Marner and people want him traded but let's not pretend he hasn't been an extremely good player for us and he's the reason we couldn't get over the hump

He got 11 million dollars right after his ELC winning nothing and not even having a 100 point season. Enough of this he should be highly valued when all he has been is highly valued and this team and it's fans haven't got nothing in return to celebrate. No playoff wins, no individual awards and not even a presidents trophy. Idk how y'all try and spin this like people think he's the worst player on the team when it's simply we haven't won shit with him and all these other so called elite players and all that cap could be used elsewhere, especially when he's gonna be asking for more than 11 mil after not winning anything or helping the team win anything. It's getting ridiculous now.


Kampf got Selke votes once too. Maybe y'all should value him a bit more instead of complaining about his contract.

 

[conFABulator]

i just saying nylander played easier matchup than marner and nobody played harder matchup than marner, including Matthews. If marner is gone, who will play those matchup ? The fact he had succes with less responsabilities doesn't mean it will still the case...

We will miss Marner for exactly the reasons you say. I am not bashing him. I am saying if we want to re-tool, re-allocate cap to D, and change the culture then I feel that Marner is the one to move for reasons I have already outlined.

Domi can help replace Marner as Matthews's setup man. Knies, McMann and Dewar can pick up some of the PK slack. Knies, Robertson, and McMann can chip in more offense...and maybe Cowan can bring all of this too.

More importantly, we acquire or sign two top four dmen in the Marner trade or with the new found cap space.

 

[Kiwi]

He got 11 million dollars right after his ELC winning nothing and not even having a 100 point season. Enough of this he should be highly valued when all he has been is highly valued and this team and it's fans haven't got nothing in return to celebrate. No playoff wins, no individual awards and not even a presidents trophy. Idk how y'all try and spin this like people think he's the worst player on the team when it's simply we haven't won shit with him and all these other so called elite players and all that cap could be used elsewhere, especially when he's gonna be asking for more than 11 mil after not winning anything or helping the team win anything. It's getting ridiculous now.


Kampf got Selke votes once too. Maybe y'all should value him a bit more instead of complaining about his contract.

Holy ****, you sound like a slighted ex girlfriend, it's not your ******* money

Pull your head out of your ass, 90-100 point line driving matchup capable wingers don't just magically appear, you can count them on one hand

Just because you've lost your mind and got all emotional doesn't change any of those facts

 

[thusk]

We will miss Marner for exactly the reasons you say. I am not bashing him. I am saying if we want to re-tool, re-allocate cap to D, and change the culture then I feel that Marner is the one to move for reasons I have already outlined.

Domi can help replace Marner as Matthews's setup man. Knies, McMann and Dewar can pick up some of the PK slack. Knies, Robertson, and McMann can chip in more offense...and maybe Cowan can bring all of this too.

More importantly, we acquire or sign two top four dmen in the Marner trade or with the new found cap space.

1-No body know except leafs organisation whats Marner really want and its certainly possible than toronto start next season with both marner and jt in the line up

2- for me treliving already started to change leafs culture with move he did but his work is not done.

Dubas was all about skill/skill/ skill and treliving is more about bringing player with an attittude coming with and playimg hard... Domi, bertuzzi, reaves, edmundson.

 

[seanlinden]

its good point but marner became leafs fan scapegoat.

trading marner... okay do it really change thing for the best? Marner still a point per game player in playoff playing toughest matchup amount all leafs player

next season with nylander salary raise. if he didn't play well 1st 3-4 game when he will start to play against tougher matchup, who do you thinking will become the marner 2.0 with target on his back for all leafs fail?

last 3 years
4-8 number of goal against tampa top 6
1-2 vs florida top 6
1-1 vs boston top 6

leafs when nylander was on the ice,scored 6 goal vs 11 against in 22 game against opposite top 6

marner
tampa 8-2
florida 1-4
boston top 6 2-2

leafs when marner was on the ice, scored 11 goal vs 8 against in 25 game against opposite top 6

it is possible if marner moving, than nylander will just becoming worst next playoff playing more vs top 6 and less against 3/4th line? If its the case like i think it will, the same exact story will restart with nylander unstead of marner...

I think hte problem is potentialyl even more "Basic" than that.

The Leafs need to get away, culturally, from going as far as "the big 4", or even, the big 3 will take them, and move towarsd a much more team-cohesive environment where everyone has the same expectations.

There's lots of "not good" reasons to trade Marner over Nylander -- the contract situations, the media BS, etc.... but there's also a pretty good reason, and it just comes down to the style that they play.

Marner is somewhat one-dimensional, he's a pass-first player through and through. He's very easy to "staple" to Auston Matthews right wing, and instead of being a 2-line team, you're now a 1-line team.

Nylander & Matthews aren't neccessarily natural linemates, as they both like to shoot the puck; and each is capable of generating offence on their own, whereas Marner needs a finisher.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think hte problem is potentialyl even more "Basic" than that.

The Leafs need to get away, culturally, from going as far as "the big 4", or even, the big 3 will take them, and move towarsd a much more team-cohesive environment where everyone has the same expectations.

There's lots of "not good" reasons to trade Marner over Nylander -- the contract situations, the media BS, etc.... but there's also a pretty good reason, and it just comes down to the style that they play.

Marner is somewhat one-dimensional, he's a pass-first player through and through. He's very easy to "staple" to Auston Matthews right wing, and instead of being a 2-line team, you're now a 1-line team.

Nylander & Matthews aren't neccessarily natural linemates, as they both like to shoot the puck; and each is capable of generating offence on their own, whereas Marner needs a finisher.

At the end of the day, Shanny betted on the wrong horses.
Time to switch them bc they can’t win collectively. It is not like they were not given chances but rather they had prove time and time again that they just can’t do it collectively.
Some say MM and JT are being targeted…bc of their contrcats(1 yr left)…. But to me, even if all of them got one year left, MGT will most likely keep AM and Willie, one being the 1C and 55 goals scorer and the other got game breaking speed and scored the last three Leafs playoffs goals.
Reilly is a maybe as he ain’t perfect but he is the only PMD.
JT is a sunk cost, sooner we move him off the better for the Leafs.
MM, he can play in the regular season and I am not harping on his playoffs but more on what Ray Ferraro said. Now Ray is never someone who drums up controversy to get clicks and stuff but I remembered what he said on Overdrive after they loss. Marner looks bad as he is either injured or uninterested. That speaks volume to me as it is Game 7 and since there is no injury report, he looked uninterested, how can that be, it was a do or die game.
Beside there are some really good UFA this summer, and if there is a chance to get Marchessault and Toffoli but couldn’t due JT or MM taking up cap space, that’s just sad.

 

[jaric1862]

I think this is the biggest questions with the Marner trade.
Do we
A. Make a hockey trade and center it around acquiring the the best possible player in exchange.
B. Make a trade for a package. 3-4 good pieces but no great pieces.

 

[Dreakmur]

Holy ****, you sound like a slighted ex girlfriend, it's not your ******* money

Pull your head out of your ass, 90-100 point line driving matchup capable wingers don't just magically appear, you can count them on one hand

Just because you've lost your mind and got all emotional doesn't change any of those facts

It's not about emotion. Trading Marner is the pragmatic decision. Signing him is not a reasonable option, so you're left with letting him play another season before walking away for nothing, or getting what you can.

I'm not even sure letting him play next year is a reasonable option. The Shanahan/Dubas model failed. It doesn't work, so wasting next year while Matthews and Nylander burn a year off their primes doesn't seem like good idea.

 

[Americanadian]

Holy ****, you sound like a slighted ex girlfriend, it's not your ******* money

Technically, as fans, it is our money. Fans have every right to criticize a player for their contract because it affects the team they cheer for on the ice.