GDT: Trades & Free Agency -- Off-season edition

[WTFMAN99]

If Willie ate up the cap increase and Austin grabbed $2M more where would you see the space coming from? If we assume Sammy's salary will cover the next goalie and Brodie's salary goes to Roy or Tanev or Walker then would that be Domi and Bert's $8.5M for the impact player? They could not afford to keep Boosh or Edmundson then and they probably need at least one of that type for something north of $2.5M.

I don't see the space unless they deal Kampf and Jarnkrok and then fill their minutes with McMann and Holmberg. I don't think they have an internal replacement for Domi and I don't know who the external replacement would be that comes in at the same cost. Who goes and how much do you see as free?

How much should Patrick Kane get? He earned like 2.75M and he's 35 or 36...

1 year at 3M?

 

[pspot]

Also lets be honest here winning a cup, its lip service

 

[Brobust]

If Willie ate up the cap increase and Austin grabbed $2M more where would you see the space coming from? If we assume Sammy's salary will cover the next goalie and Brodie's salary goes to Roy or Tanev or Walker then would that be Domi and Bert's $8.5M for the impact player? They could not afford to keep Boosh or Edmundson then and they probably need at least one of that type for something north of $2.5M.

I don't see the space unless they deal Kampf and Jarnkrok and then fill their minutes with McMann and Holmberg. I don't think they have an internal replacement for Domi and I don't know who the external replacement would be that comes in at the same cost. Who goes and how much do you see as free?

I was talking about the defence adds being major additions.

They can add Matt Roy + Sean Walker and go with Bertuzzi/Manta + Joshua. That team's way better than the 2023 Leafs.

 

[TML Dynasty]

I think we can all agree Marner if he re signs here will try to milk us for every cent. That alone makes me want to trade him now if possible while there is value. I don't want to end next season with the options being: pay him too much or lose for nothing.

Find a trade. That will determine what else we need to do/have to do.

 

[nuck]

How much should Patrick Kane get? He earned like 2.75M and he's 35 or 36...

1 year at 3M?

No he had 47pts in 50 games. Much higher and he probably won't sign anywhere for just a year.

 

[WTFMAN99]

No he had 47pts in 50 games. Much higher and he probably won't sign anywhere for just a year.

I know it was out there that his camp wanted term but I would personally give him the Pavelski treatment, 1 year at a time.

Ironically, I could see him landing on Dallas as his replacement.

 

[Dreakmur]

They've already made their most important move ... coaching.

Then:

• goaltending
• couple defenders
• ELSC players

We’d have more ELC players if we followed the plan I suggested years ago. Once guys like Johnsson, Kapanen, Engvall, Liljegren, etc finish their ELCs, you move them for younger guys or picks.

 

[mydnyte]

Bolded is not a positive though is it?

it would be if we had a D-man that could shot the puck. its not Marner's fault Rielly has no shot or inclination to shoot any more. ...this could have been a coaching mandate though.

 

[mydnyte]

It is not comparing how teams are built but rather learn how they are built.

I agree that luck is involve on teams winning the Cup but based on last playoffs, Leafs need a lot of luck in order to win a few rounds. You can't count on being lucky to make it to the SCF. However, you have to start building bits by bits toward being a true contender. It is not one piece and boom, you are a contender. Lets say JT and Bob switched team, I still doubt the Leafs can make it to the SCF, b/c there are still too many holes in the lineup, such as lack of scoring from the top guys, and bad special teams. But if Bob switched team with Nurse, Oilers probably be winning the Cup, bc they have less holes to fill.

The team had no success with the Core 5 for the past 6 yrs. And not like these Core 5 were lighting it up in the playoffs either. What's the basis of them having success in the future?

I asked this question before, and going to ask again. if any other teams switched rosters with the Leafs and both players and team had the same regular season and playoffs records/stats, would you still think that team is a contender, that they are close, and they are right there if only they get a few better bounces?

Having a coach that isnt actually 'bad' and will adapt and not always be outsmarted and out maneuvered.

you dont need to swap rosters, swap Divisions instead...
If you swapped the Leafs (102 points) and the Oilers (104 points) divisions, its possible the Oilers dont even make the playoffs, and the Leafs would be in the finals, with the 'core 4' having outstanding numbers, as the play style in the other division better suits the Leafs, and we dominated that division.

Oilers route to the Cup was through LA, and Vancouver (vs their 3rd string goalie or was he the 4th?), then Dallas (who we handled all season long)

Oilers played Boston 2 times splitting the series (both in OT)
Oilers played the Panthers 2 times and got beat handily in both games
Oil lost both vs TB
Oil split vs Buffalo
Oil split vs Sens
Oil won both vs MTL in OT
Oil clobbered the Wings
...they dominated 1 team, and were not dominant vs any other team in the Leafs division.
leafs vs Nucks, Kings, Knights split
Leafs swept vs Flames, Kraken, Ducks, and Sharks
...the Leafs loss to the Kings was also early in the season when the Kings were the best team in the League before they fell off the cliff and never recovered.
the loss to the nucks was with 3rd stringer Jones in net
the loss vs the Knights was a Samsonov full team no show

Suffice it to say, if we were in the Oilers division, we should have easily won the division, and had an even easier path than the Oilers.

 

[Madap]

Berube accepted this job to coach top players, that includes Marner in my opinion.

Give him a year with Marner isn't a bad thing.

They'll shuffle the chairs again next year and then Tavares expiring will be the actual step forward to balancing the roster....hopefully

I can fully see that happening, but what if everyone’s right about Marner?

Next year we will suck again in the playoffs, and it will be the “Tavares” excuse and then we run it back for an additional year with Matthews, Nylander, Marner only for them to suck again.

Before you know it, we’ve wasted another two years with this core. We’ve been patient enough with them and have given them ample time. We’ve already changed coaches and shuffled around the depth too - they don’t work and Marner is the obvious choice to go.

 

[mydnyte]

It's all fine and dandy to spread the wealth around to other parts of the team, and they need to do it now, but you need to have good players to spend it on as well. Apart from this free agent crop this year, there hasn't been many option d-wise apart from Petroangelo.

an example of spread the wealth around is the Islanders, they have a much better defense than we do, and a much better goalie, yet, they suck because their top 2 players would be our #3C and Barzal being RH, wouldnt play ahead of Marner or Willie. Horvat is a good player, and had the 2nd best points totals in his career this past season, 3 pts better than JT, who had by far his worst season as a Leafs player.

Leafs Defense has sucked for the past 4-5 seasons, and we were going no place with that defense, we need to spend all of our available cap space to upgrade our defense (and a 1B/vet backup goalie), and if there is any $$ left, then can look at some depth forwards, but, I'd rather inject our youth in those spots.

 

[mydnyte]

The criticism is fair, but another small skilled type winger in Patrick Kane was able to make it work in the playoffs.

My bigger issue with Marner is he hasn't added a different element to his game, if he worked on his shot and was more of a threat 5 on 5 and on the powerplay it would open up more possibilities for him. He's too predictable to read.

Kane is more like Nylander than Marner... Kane is a shooter.
Marner does need to both improve his shot, and to use it more frequently, and he can be more dangerous like Kutcherov

Marner's game just doesn't translate in the playoffs when time and space is taken away. He doesn't handle physicality really well. He doesn't even attempt going to the front of the net.

I'd rather not pay a guy 11+ million with a task of simply shutting down the opposition's best player, who ended up scoring in OT for the series winner anyway.

It's time to move on for the good of good parties here.

Marner is NOT a net front presence, and never in his career at any level has played that role, and no coach in their right mind would ever ask him to be the in front of the net guy. ...high slot on the PP perhaps, but, JT is far better suited to that spot anyways.

 

[Torontonian]

an example of spread the wealth around is the Islanders, they have a much better defense than we do, and a much better goalie, yet, they suck because their top 2 players would be our #3C and Barzal being RH, wouldnt play ahead of Marner or Willie. Horvat is a good player, and had the 2nd best points totals in his career this past season, 3 pts better than JT, who had by far his worst season as a Leafs player.

Leafs Defense has sucked for the past 4-5 seasons, and we were going no place with that defense, we need to spend all of our available cap space to upgrade our defense (and a 1B/vet backup goalie), and if there is any $$ left, then can look at some depth forwards, but, I'd rather inject our youth in those spots.

Toronto could be in a intriguing situation.. They realistically could inject youth into the lineup such as Cowan/Minten/Robertson(1.2m resigned), resign Dewar (1m) and make Reaves the 13th forward. Having Timmins as the 6th d-man on the right side. Suddenly you have close to 16m to fill 3 holes. (two top 4 d-man and a goalie). Which you could lock down a solid D-core for this season and moving forward and then use the extra cap space next season to bolster the forward group.

Does Toronto think Cowan and Minten are ready for the NHL? They already gave Minten 9 games last year so they think he's close. Cowan is going to get 9 games this year I would think after his strong training camp and strong season.

It would look something like this I would guess, if that's the case (16m to sign the XXX's):

Knies - Matthews - Nylander
McMann - JT - Marner
Cowan - Kampf - Robertson
Jarnkrok - Minten - Dewar
Ex: Reaves/Homberg

Rielly - XXX
McCabe - XXX
Beniot - Timmins

Woll
XXX

 

[Fogelhund]

We analyze at the end of every season. We look at our team, and we look forward. We look for ways to be better. We do that every year. In the past, I believe that there are times when you talk about patience. I still believe there are times when patience is the suitable call. However, when you see patterns persist, and the results don’t change, you have to adjust the way you think about things.

We will look at everything this summer. We will consider everything this summer. All with the intention of the one thing we are here for — to make the Maple Leafs better and to win.

Ok then... if it's not Marner who is it then? I mean, someone's going right, otherwise we have some pretty hollow words here. It seemed pretty clear to me, that he was saying, there is/are player(s) who we can't win with, who don't do enough to win, and haven't changed to win...

I can't imagine going into the start of next season, without someone exiting, or else those were just hollow words without meaning.

Of course, this is just Dreger's opinion.

"I think Treliving would rather extend than trade"
@DarrenDreger

Maybe he just doesn't know anything, and is guessing.


edit... man did the formatting come out weird.

 

[Brobust]

Ok then... if it's not Marner who is it then? I mean, someone's going right, otherwise we have some pretty hollow words here. It seemed pretty clear to me, that he was saying, there is/are player(s) who we can't win with, who don't do enough to win, and haven't changed to win...

I can't imagine going into the start of next season, without someone exiting, or else those were just hollow words without meaning.

Of course, this is just Dreger's opinion.

"I think Treliving would rather extend than trade"
@DarrenDreger

Maybe he just doesn't know anything, and is guessing.


edit... man did the formatting come out weird.

It has to be JT.

 

[Martin Skoula]

it is actually... After Matthews and JT (less so last year since Domi was able to step in at #2C) Marner is the most critical forward we have and would be the most missed player on the roster.
We lost our #1D, or #1G, no big deal, we fill the hole and move on and keep winning, but, if we lose our #1-2 C we have nobody to step up, and Marner IS our best 200 foot player, his defensive game is better than Matthews, he is the PP QB, and the goto guy on the PK, when he is out, he is irreplaceable.

The new coach deserves a chance to see what 'extra' he can get out of Marner, and if then he doesnt like what he sees, we consider a move.

How’d that go in the playoffs? Maybe next year he can QB a 10% PP and a 75% PK if he works really hard on improving.

 

[mydnyte]

I can fully see that happening, but what if everyone’s right about Marner?

Next year we will suck again in the playoffs, and it will be the “Tavares” excuse and then we run it back for an additional year with Matthews, Nylander, Marner only for them to suck again.

Before you know it, we’ve wasted another two years with this core. We’ve been patient enough with them and have given them ample time. We’ve already changed coaches and shuffled around the depth too - they don’t work and Marner is the obvious choice to go.

this is SO weak... Playoffs are a different animal, and 'star' players sometimes get shut down, and then their actual performance gets upgraded if/when they WIN.

i.e.
Panarin (.84ppg), Zibanejad (.85ppg), Kaprisov (.63ppg), Marchand (.88ppg), Marner (.88ppg)

73

21

40

61

-18

74

19

44

63

+0

19

10

2

12

-5

157

56

82

138

+30

57

11

39

50

+10

Now tell me Marner is a weak playoff performer compared to these other 'stars' having the same PPG as Marchand.

for the record, and not to cherry pick too many players, here are the likely cup winners top players

Barkov (.85ppg)

68

18

40

58

+0

M. Tkachuk (.87ppg)

68

23

36

59

+3

here is 57 goal scorer Reinhart (.62ppg)

52

20

12

32

-2

and playoff 'stud' Bennett (.68ppg)

81

25

30

55

+6

Verhaeghe (.79ppg)

66

25

27

52

+8

 

[Fogelhund]

""

 

[Rude Dog]

Marner's game just doesn't translate in the playoffs when time and space is taken away. He doesn't handle physicality really well. He doesn't even attempt going to the front of the net.

I'd rather not pay a guy 11+ million with a task of simply shutting down the opposition's best player, who ended up scoring in OT for the series winner anyway.

It's time to move on for the good of good parties here.

My personal belief is that he tries too hard to play play-off hockey instead of doing what he does best, react. When he overthinks things, he is a fraction of the player.

The Leafs almost always had the second best goalie and D in a series. Expecting to win low event games over a 7 game series was dumb. This team was built to score 4 not under two. I would keep Marner. Tavares contract is the killer. Too bad Marner's greed and his agent poisoned his reputation this market. Will be really hard to come back from.

 

[Fogelhund]

How much should Patrick Kane get? He earned like 2.75M and he's 35 or 36...

1 year at 3M?

I think he can get a little more than that... maybe in the $4 mil to $5 mil range. He took a deep discount last year, to prove that he could still play, after a surgery that often degrades the capability of most. However, he was around point per game.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

""

Hell yes this guy is a beauty

 

[Fogelhund]

It has to be JT.

I think if you identify players whom you don't think you can win with... they have to be gone. I don't know if it's JT... but if it is, well that's the end of the journey here. Now, I've said it's incredibly difficult to get him to waive to be traded, yet at the same time, if he's not part of the future.... I'm not sure what to say. "IF" he's the problem, the C has to be stripped, and his role on the team diminished.... and this has to be communicated. If that's the case, let him decide what his future is. I don't think any trade return for him is tremendous, or franchise changing, so him playing out the year in a reduced role isn't the worst thing.

To me, the most obvious destination for JT would be Columbus, who is in desperate need of a C. What would the return be? Maybe disgruntled Jiricek? I mean, that would be a bit of a dream scenario if it played out that way. Lose the cap, gain a decent prospect. It could be Laine too... which would be... interesting.

Of course, then we'd need a C... which could be problematic if we didn't land a top one in UFA... whether that's Lindholm or Stephenson... we'd need one of them.

Or, it might not be JT either... who knows, but I just don't see all 5 of the top paid players back next year... someone's going.

 

[Gabriel426]

Having a coach that isnt actually 'bad' and will adapt and not always be outsmarted and out maneuvered.

you dont need to swap rosters, swap Divisions instead...
If you swapped the Leafs (102 points) and the Oilers (104 points) divisions, its possible the Oilers dont even make the playoffs, and the Leafs would be in the finals, with the 'core 4' having outstanding numbers, as the play style in the other division better suits the Leafs, and we dominated that division.

Oilers route to the Cup was through LA, and Vancouver (vs their 3rd string goalie or was he the 4th?), then Dallas (who we handled all season long)

Oilers played Boston 2 times splitting the series (both in OT)
Oilers played the Panthers 2 times and got beat handily in both games
Oil lost both vs TB
Oil split vs Buffalo
Oil split vs Sens
Oil won both vs MTL in OT
Oil clobbered the Wings
...they dominated 1 team, and were not dominant vs any other team in the Leafs division.
leafs vs Nucks, Kings, Knights split
Leafs swept vs Flames, Kraken, Ducks, and Sharks
...the Leafs loss to the Kings was also early in the season when the Kings were the best team in the League before they fell off the cliff and never recovered.
the loss to the nucks was with 3rd stringer Jones in net
the loss vs the Knights was a Samsonov full team no show

Suffice it to say, if we were in the Oilers division, we should have easily won the division, and had an even easier path than the Oilers.

We did won the North Division and what happened?

Not saying Oilers didn’t had an easy path but maybe we beat LA but I don’t think the guys can beat Silvos as it has being out goalied written all over it.
Not to mention beating Stars.

Our boys are just not contender and they are not even close. They had not shown anything in the past that they are close being kept telling themselves that. The team is just a playoffs team and will continue to be a playoff team with the current roster construction.

Will Berube helps, I certainly hope so but how much can he help? JT is not going to start skating better under Berube. Are we hoping Reilly will start shooting on the PP?

I really think a lot of you are putting way too much hope in Berube righting the ship and all our guys will suddenly play at a level higher than they shown in the past few seasons.

 

[Madap]

this is SO weak... Playoffs are a different animal, and 'star' players sometimes get shut down, and then their actual performance gets upgraded if/when they WIN.

i.e.
Panarin (.84ppg), Zibanejad (.85ppg), Kaprisov (.63ppg), Marchand (.88ppg), Marner (.88ppg)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]73[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]40[/TD]
[TD]61[/TD]
[TD]-18[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]63[/TD]
[TD]+0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]157[/TD]
[TD]56[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[TD]138[/TD]
[TD]+30[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]57[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]39[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]+10[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Now tell me Marner is a weak playoff performer compared to these other 'stars' having the same PPG as Marchand.

for the record, and not to cherry pick too many players, here are the likely cup winners top players

Barkov (.85ppg)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]68[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]40[/TD]
[TD]58[/TD]
[TD]+0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
M. Tkachuk (.87ppg)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]68[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]59[/TD]
[TD]+3[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
here is 57 goal scorer Reinhart (.62ppg)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]52[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]-2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
and playoff 'stud' Bennett (.68ppg)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]81[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]55[/TD]
[TD]+6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Verhaeghe (.79ppg)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]66[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]52[/TD]
[TD]+8[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Honestly I wrote out a whole response rebutting this, but I actually don’t have the energy to start a discussion with you. If you and the other Marner fans think that what you’ve shown above means anything, then that’s great for you, and I hope he proves you right and we’re no longer the absolute joke of the league. Cheers.

 

[pspot]

would actually prefer Domi cause he can play C and was good at face offs....but really both depends on cost. They need to address the D and G so unless domi is coming back at under 4 and bert maybe around 5 I'd move on from both .