Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[Martin Skoula]

The Avs winning move was also adding Kadri and Manson both big pieces in their cup run

Kadri having a career year helped them get the job done. He isnt fast but can be very skilled and adds grit when hes on.

You won't win with speed alone

Avs had a tough gritty forward with skill and point producing ability on most of their lines

Landeskog played the physical role on L1
Kadri on L2, Nichushkin on L3.

They had their top 3 players be their best players in Makar, Mack, and Rantanen for that playoff run

Leafs havent enjoyed the ability to add a Kadri or snag a Nichkushkin type player due to us not being willing to commit long term to any guys outside the core 4

Kadri’s career year came off getting MacK’s regular season minutes when he was injured and crushing it on the PP, they did fine without him when Kadri was injured in the playoffs.

We could have afforded a Nichushkin/Lehkonen pretty easily over the 2-3.5 mil filler prices we had.

I’m not saying to ignore the gritty 3rd wheel on our speed lines, but we need to have speed lines in the first place for the 3rd wheels to maximize their value.

Either way, it’s too late for this conversation because we’re already set in the jack of all trades meta, this would be more relevant in 2020.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I forgot to ask you what you’re basing Matthews and Marner being generational players on?

Huh? You're the one that called them generational.

Wow! I didn’t know that 18 players all get automatically worse each year. You would think with all the data that’s available now, and all the emphasis on proper training methods and so on, that players wouldn’t be getting worse. Not to mention that if so many players on the team would be getting worse, the odds would be that much more in our favour.

What are you talking about? Nobody said "18 players all get automatically worse each year". You questioned how the team could get worse with Matthews/Marner there, but that's only discussing 2 of the 20 spots on a team that impact results. The team's results are impacted by those other 18 spots too. What Matthews/Marner being there prevented is us being bad enough to get lottery picks that would significantly alter our path. So it was either try and compete, or flail around as a bubble team for years through our best player's primes, while we built up our internal pools from the decimated state they were in with mid-tier picks - which would not have been acceptable from a fan or owner perspective, especially with a competing option available.

No, Dekes, they won because they had some very good skilled players (who weren’t being overpaid), as well as players who played with an edge. Not to mention a very well-rounded d corps.

You missed the point. It shows how arbitrary and wrong it is to suggest that you can't win with X just because X hasn't been won with yet. We are fully able to win with this configuration, just like Vegas was able to win with something that hadn't been won with yet. And for the record, the biggest reason Vegas won is cap circumvention.

 

[TMLAM34]

I wonder if there’s a way we can trade Brodie for a couple assets and then turn those assets along with any additional assets from us for Pesce without having to move Nylander. I wouldn’t mind moving our 1st in the deal if Pesce came with a contract extension. You’re probably looking at Pulock’s contract extension when it comes to Pesce, 6.15 x 8.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Would you agree that the total overpayment is under 6 mil? Tavares at 9, Marner at 8.6, Matthews at 9.3 would be considered fair deals to steals right?

Would you also agree that Florida just went to the finals with 6+ mil worth of cap penalties on the books? It’s the same as if they had Barkov at 10.5, Tkachuk at 9.5 and Rienhart st 12.5. Seemed pretty viable even with a 10mil goalie + 7.5 mil pylon on D.

Hmmm, you could be onto something. Maybe it’s the actual core players that are the problem. Maybe they just can’t get it done. Perhaps we should trade at least one of them. Three of them have had 7 attempts, and only managed to win one playoff round, only to go out with a whimper in the next round (and that’s 5 attempts if you include Tavares).

The same weaknesses have kept occurring every playoff, not enough secondary scoring, not starting on time, disappearing at times, only one threat from our d corps, no killer instinct, just to name a few. This is unacceptable! Yet, they may still expect raises on their next contracts (and yes, I understand contracts are based on regular season only). But it sure would show something to at least their teammates if they would all take a hometown discount! Maybe finally be able to address these other problem areas. But I still remain sceptical that this core can do it.

As I’ve said many times, I would love to be proven wrong because I desperately want to see the Leafs win a Cup!

 

[Dekes For Days]

Wasn't he one of the guys in limbo because of the Hockey Canada stuff? Surprised he was signed right now.

 

[ULF_55]

Wasn't he one of the guys in limbo because of the Hockey Canada stuff? Surprised he was signed right now.

The following players have come out either via personal statement or with their agency to say that they were not involved with the allegations: Jake Bean, Kale Clague, Max Comtois, Dillon Dube, Dante Fabbro, Cal Foote, Jonah Gadjovich, Carter Hart, Brett Howden, Cale Makar, Colton Point, Taylor Raddysh, Sam Steel, Tyler Steenbergen Robert Thomas and Conor Timmins.

Hockey Canada scandal, explained: Carter Hart, Dillon Dube among five players charged with sexual assault | Sporting News Canada

A woman claims that members of the CHL and Hockey Canada sexually assaulted her in 2018.

www.sportingnews.com

 

[ULF_55]

Hmmm, you could be onto something. Maybe it’s the actual core players that are the problem. Maybe they just can’t get it done. Perhaps we should trade at least one of them. Three of them have had 7 attempts, and only managed to win one playoff round, only to go out with a whimper in the next round (and that’s 5 attempts if you include Tavares).

The same weaknesses have kept occurring every playoff, not enough secondary scoring, not starting on time, disappearing at times, only one threat from our d corps, no killer instinct, just to name a few. This is unacceptable! Yet, they may still expect raises on their next contracts (and yes, I understand contracts are based on regular season only). But it sure would show something to at least their teammates if they would all take a hometown discount! Maybe finally be able to address these other problem areas. But I still remain sceptical that this core can do it.

As I’ve said many times, I would love to be proven wrong because I desperately want to see the Leafs win a Cup!

It has been mentioned over and over again, you can't rely on your 3rd. and 4th. liners to carry your team in the post-season.

1 goal for $33mm in the 2nd. round, and people want to talk about depth players letting them down?

There is no debate.

 

[TMLAM34]

The following players have come out either via personal statement or with their agency to say that they were not involved with the allegations: Jake Bean, Kale Clague, Max Comtois, Dillon Dube, Dante Fabbro, Cal Foote, Jonah Gadjovich, Carter Hart, Brett Howden, Cale Makar, Colton Point, Taylor Raddysh, Sam Steel, Tyler Steenbergen Robert Thomas and Conor Timmins.

Hockey Canada scandal, explained: Carter Hart, Dillon Dube among five players charged with sexual assault | Sporting News Canada

A woman claims that members of the CHL and Hockey Canada sexually assaulted her in 2018.

www.sportingnews.com

If that list is accurate, I’m a little surprised no one has signed Comtois yet. A 1 year, league minimum contract seems like a no brainer to me.

 

[Captain Crunch]

I don't know what this question is trying to ask. Having two players doesn't prevent the other 18 from getting worse...

We would have been stuck in limbo - not good enough for a realistic shot at the cup, but not bad enough to get top draft picks to move us out of that position.

I'll tell Vegas their cup didn't count because no team had won with a 10m center previously. Just because [insert extremely specific allocation scenario] hasn't been represented yet in [insert extremely rare and sample limited outcome], that doesn't invalidate the viability of that allocation.
Many teams have won getting less impact from that percentage of the cap. How exactly a team is configured isn't really relevant. Teams win with all sorts of configurations.

Please answer my original question, why are you calling Matthews and Marner “generational” players?

Huh? You're the one that called them generational.

What are you talking about? Nobody said "18 players all get automatically worse each year". You questioned how the team could get worse with Matthews/Marner there, but that's only discussing 2 of the 20 spots on a team that impact results. The team's results are impacted by those other 18 spots too. What Matthews/Marner being there prevented is us being bad enough to get lottery picks that would significantly alter our path. So it was either try and compete, or flail around as a bubble team for years through our best player's primes, while we built up our internal pools from the decimated state they were in with mid-tier picks - which would not have been acceptable from a fan or owner perspective, especially with a competing option available.

You missed the point. It shows how arbitrary and wrong it is to suggest that you can't win with X just because X hasn't been won with yet. We are fully able to win with this configuration, just like Vegas was able to win with something that hadn't been won with yet. And for the record, the biggest reason Vegas won is cap circumvention.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I can’t find your post (yet) where you were the one who called them generational.

”Flail around as a bubble team” as opposed to a team that continually choked in the playoffs before finally winning ONE round, only to flame out in the next round. So I guess if you’re going to “flail around”, it’s better to do it in the 1st round of the playoffs. Big whoop!

Please explain how Vegas won with something that hadn’t been won with yet? Unless you mean a goalie who got hot at the right time, solid top 6 defence, and a good mix of forwards. The goalie can definitely be an X factor, but balancing out the other 18 players can do something about. It seems Stone had a legitimate injury, one that he was obviously still dealing with throughout the playoffs. Where was the cap circumvention, which kind of reminds me of the Leafs and Murray situation?

We will see if Shanahan knows how to build a winner, ESPECIALLY if Matthews and Marner keep refusing to take any kind of hometown discount!

It has been mentioned over and over again, you can't rely on your 3rd. and 4th. liners to carry your team in the post-season.

1 goal for $33mm in the 2nd. round, and people want to talk about depth players letting them down?

There is no debate.

I couldn’t agree more!

 

[ULF_55]

If that list is accurate, I’m a little surprised no one has signed Comtois yet. A 1 year, league minimum contract seems like a no brainer to me.

Everyone is innocent until they are not.

Hockey Canada scandal, explained: Carter Hart, Dillon Dube among five players charged with sexual assault | Sporting News Canada

A woman claims that members of the CHL and Hockey Canada sexually assaulted her in 2018.

www.sportingnews.com

This comes four months after police investigators in London, Ont., said that they have "reasonable grounds" to believe that five members of the 2018 Canada World Juniors hockey team sexually assaulted a woman in a hotel room after a Hockey Canada fundraising gala, according to a court filing to the Ontario Court of Justice.

 

[Fogelhund]

The following players have come out either via personal statement or with their agency to say that they were not involved with the allegations: Jake Bean, Kale Clague, Max Comtois, Dillon Dube, Dante Fabbro, Cal Foote, Jonah Gadjovich, Carter Hart, Brett Howden, Cale Makar, Colton Point, Taylor Raddysh, Sam Steel, Tyler Steenbergen Robert Thomas and Conor Timmins.

Hockey Canada scandal, explained: Carter Hart, Dillon Dube among five players charged with sexual assault | Sporting News Canada

A woman claims that members of the CHL and Hockey Canada sexually assaulted her in 2018.

www.sportingnews.com

Nobody was involved apparently. Nobody is guilty.

 

[LaPlante94]

If that purported trade is true I agree with you...we'd a been fleeced.

mhm. That's why I've been saying if that's the only time a trade was vetoed and they are trying to use that as a reason why Shanahan won't let the GM do what they want, then I think they are helping Shanahan look much better than Dubas there.

 

[andora]

I really hope knies turns out as good as hagel

 

[al secord]

Nobody was involved apparently. Nobody is guilty.

Except Red. Red was the only guilty man in Shawshank.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I think one thing that is overlooked in this whole scenario is how Dubas said that everything change wise was on the table in his last presser as leafs GM. I think that scared Shanny more than anything and the fact we've seen such little turnover is what Shanny wants. Tre is an errand boy. nothing more.

Dubas said it but I don't buy it. Simple logic tells me Dubas went all-out for the power & money because he had the Penguin offer in his back pocket.

And outside of maybe Marner because he has two years left, the others are either impossible or very difficult to trade.

 

[Fogelhund]

Dubas said it but I don't buy it. Simple logic tells me Dubas went all-out for the power & money because he had the Penguin offer in his back pocket.

And outside of maybe Marner because he has two years left, the others are either impossible or very difficult to trade.

So, make up a completely fabricated theory, that matches your narrative, instead of believing what was said.

 

[Buds17]

So, make up a completely fabricated theory, that matches your narrative, instead of believing what was said.

In fairness, "everything being on the table" is a statement that receives attention but ultimately lacks in substance because it rarely benefits a GM to outright commit to either making a change or maintaining the status quo. I can understand the argument for not buying what Dubas was apparently selling there though because of the feeling that he went off script and into business for himself.

 

[Martin Skoula]

In fairness, "everything being on the table" is a statement that receives attention but ultimately lacks in substance because it rarely benefits a GM to outright commit to either making a change or maintaining the status quo. I can understand the argument for not buying what Dubas was apparently selling there though because of the feeling that he went off script and into business for himself.

So that’s why Shanny had to call them and tell them they’re not being traded right after before we even had a new GM in place?

Which one of those two sounds like he’s unwilling to move the core?

 

[Buds17]

So that’s why Shanny had to call them and tell them they’re not being traded right after before we even had a new GM in place?

Which one of those two sounds like he’s unwilling to move the core?

"Reportedly" (which could have as much or as little meaning involved as expressed intentions). There also would have been little time in which the team could have traded either Matthews or Marner without constraints (the NMCs kicking in) while Tavares obviously has the full NMC. Can't say I'm particularly shocked by the "core four" still being left intact at this point.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Please answer my original question, why are you calling Matthews and Marner “generational” players?
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I can’t find your post (yet) where you were the one who called them generational.

So you responded to a post that said nothing about them being generational players, and you ask me why I'm calling them generational players, and then I point out that I didn't, and your response is to ask again, and say you lost some other unrelated post that says it? Um... Ok then... I've mentioned Matthews being a generational goal scorer before, but otherwise I don't know what you're referring to. I also don't really know why it matters. There are a lot of definitions of generational, and these labels are arbitrary.

”Flail around as a bubble team” as opposed to a team that continually choked in the playoffs before finally winning ONE round, only to flame out in the next round.

No, as opposed to being a team with actual cup potential. The playoff outcomes we had were obviously not the desired outcomes. We also didn't expect a global pandemic.

Please explain how Vegas won with something that hadn’t been won with yet?

No team has won paying 3 forwards 33m yet. Thus, it can't be done.
No team has won paying a center 10m yet. Thus, it can't be done.
These are the same logic. They are both wrong, and we can see that Vegas did exactly that.
Just because some really specific situation hasn't happened for a cup winner yet, that doesn't mean you can't win with it.
You could probably go through every winner in history and find something unique about them. It didn't disqualify them from winning.

Where was the cap circumvention, which kind of reminds me of the Leafs and Murray situation?

The Murray situation isn't really similar, unless we're reactivating Murray in the playoffs to get a competitive advantage.

 

[Martin Skoula]

"Reportedly" (which could have as much or as little meaning involved as expressed intentions). There also would have been little time in which the team could have traded either Matthews or Marner without constraints (the NMCs kicking in) while Tavares obviously has the full NMC. Can't say I'm particularly shocked by the "core four" still being left intact at this point.

Yeah man for sure, Shanny was secretly ready to get rid of them (despite his entire body of work since 2005 and multiple interviews boldly proclaiming his love for young skilled forwards) but then aw shucks Dubas just had to go and lie about everything being on the table because… it would get him more money from Pittsburgh somehow? so Shanny had no choice but to fire him and unfortunately it was physically impossible to put a trade together in a month and a half so a few reporters invented a fake story about him calling the core and telling them they won’t be traded.. for some reason.

 

[Menzinger]

Wasn't he one of the guys in limbo because of the Hockey Canada stuff? Surprised he was signed right now.

Though as we've seen with Gally, teams can always move quickly to terminate a contract for "material breach" if anything comes out later

 

[Nylanderthal]

If that purported trade is true I agree with you...we'd a been fleeced.

There’s no chance nylander would be involved in that deal. Maybe he goes out elsewhere and the cap &

Dubas said it but I don't buy it. Simple logic tells me Dubas went all-out for the power & money because he had the Penguin offer in his back pocket.

And outside of maybe Marner because he has two years left, the others are either impossible or very difficult to trade.

I believe Marner would’ve been the guy targeted.

 

[Buds17]

Yeah man for sure, Shanny was secretly ready to get rid of them (despite his entire body of work since 2005 and multiple interviews boldly proclaiming his love for young skilled forwards) but then aw shucks Dubas just had to go and lie about everything being on the table because… it would get him more money from Pittsburgh somehow? so Shanny had no choice but to fire him and unfortunately it was physically impossible to put a trade together in a month and a half so a few reporters invented a fake story about him calling the core and telling them they won’t be traded.. for some reason.

I don't think the team wants to take the risk of trading away any one of those players if other options for potential improvement are available to them instead. Dubas stating that "everything is on the table" isn't overly newsworthy unless he's rather adamant about making a trade to begin with. Likewise, Shanahan telling the players they aren't being traded isn't much of a stretch either when said players hold as much veto power as they do.

 

[LeafEgo]

I don't think the team wants to take the risk of trading away any one of those players if other options for potential improvement are available to them instead. Dubas stating that "everything is on the table" isn't overly newsworthy unless he's quite adamant about making a big trade. Likewise, Shanahan telling the players they aren't being traded isn't much of a stretch either when said players hold as much veto power as they do.

Nothing meaningful was said in that dumpster fire press conference. He was a deer in headlights with one foot out the door.