Rumor: Trade Thread XVII: Callahan's Reckoning.

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There's something wrong with most teams. LA is big but can't score. Pittsburgh is just waiting for Fleury to melt down again the playoffs. Chicago has less depth up front than last year. San Jose can't win in May. You can never be sure of St. Louis' goaltending.

The only truly complete team I see right now is Anaheim. And that comes with the caveat that several of their defensemen are playing way over their career standards.

The Rangers record is right there with the best in the east since the first six weeks of the season. The depth is good and there is plenty of scoring...much more than in the past. Plus they seem to be getting better as the season progresses. Yes, there are needs -- certainly some more size would help and another offensive threat on the backline.

As long as Henrik is capable of stealing a game or a series, this is a much more dangerous team than many of you seem to think. I can easily see the Rangers getting to the final 4 and from there anything can happen. Just look back 2 years if you need a refresher on that.

I expect Sather to do exactly what he has done in recent years...make some window dressing trades unbless a true hockey trade is to be made.

Their defense is massively overachieving currently. There's a reason they lost in the 1st round to a bad Red Wings team last year.

Cam Fowler and Hampus Lindholm are both great, Lovejoy plays like 16 minutes and plays fine, Sbisa is terrible, Allen is slower than **** but is still having a solid year, Souray is always hurt.

Ducks are primed for another disappointing 1st round exit. I wouldn't say there's a single complete team in the league. There's only teams that are close to complete.
 
cally playing well is good news to me. this will maintain his value. thats a good thing.

this organization can survive and prosper without ryan callahan. the better he plays, the more likely he will stick with his demands and the more likely another team will meet them.

as a rental or a sign and trade, his real value to this team is what he brings back and the fact that we wont be burdened by his cap killing contract for the next 6-7 yrs.

rock on ryan :yo:
 
I think you have to be more objective when talking about who you beat and where that places you in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think it says much when we beat Chicago a month or so ago.

It also doesn't say much when we lose to Winnipeg.

One off games don't mean a thing which is why play-off series are best of 7.

I don't see us as having much of a problem in goal, or defense... but our forwards are a rag tag group who are highly, HIGHLY suspect. Too many that disappear for long stretches. Including Nash.
 
I think Sather is handling this spot on. This has everything to do with Callahan pricing himself out with ridiculous demands. Chicago follows the model you speak of with locking their players up, but their guys are all on team-friendly deals:

Kane $6.3 mil per
Toews $6.3 mil per
Sharp $5.9 mil per
Hossa $5.2 mil per

Callahan and his corner seem to think Cally should be paid more than those guys. Maybe on the open market he'll get more. But those guys all took less and hoisted a Cup. It's Callahan's right if the money is the more important thing, and I will not judge that at all. But if Callahan is demanding way, way more than he's worth, then his decision to price himself off the team is entirely on him.

The Sharp deal is the only comparable. Meaning, it is the only recent deal. Both Kane and Toews were RFA deals signed while the cap was lower. And Hossa is the most classic example of the cap circumvention deals of the last CBA.

Callahan is pricing himself off the team at 7y 49m if that is what he's asking. And its not the term that is the most outrageous part of that asking price. But Sather should have locked Callahan and some others up to longer contracts in the past. That's what I've come to take out of this inevitable situation. We shouldn't have been in this situation. Rangerboy has been saying this since the beginning of the year. 16 or something free agents to be in one summer, 5 or 6 guys under contract heading into next year. Almost seems like Sather never believed in the team as constructed and was giving himself a potential clean slate if he needed it. Except this team is and has been closer to be a winner, then anything he could put together going forward. Vancouver needs a roster overhaul, the Rangers do not. But bc of one man's decision process, we are forced into it.

I know a lot of fans here, want a roster purge and 1-3 yr reload. The Rangers have world-class goaltending and defensemen and have a growing mix of talented forwards. Its a good recipe, and with all the intangibles the core of this group has and the locker room they have: in my opinion its much wiser to bet on the team getting that C and LW they need to complete their forwards corps, and a defensemen coming up through the player development route who can be that additional PMD defensemen everyone's clamoring for; as opposed to a roster purge and reload.
 
Just throwing this out there, and let me preface this by stating that I've been on the "trade Callahan" boat for a while...because it's just smart business.

Now there's a flip-side....

How good are we? Are we...gulp....contenders??? If so, should we really be trading our Captain? That could be very dangerous; not so much from a stats point of view, but what effect (if any) would it have on the guys?
 
OK, let the flaming begin as I am going to defend Sather (to some degree).

First, let me say that I am 100% in favor of replacing him: I think the organization would benefit by a dose of fresh air that a new administration would bring. He has been here a long time: this is a success oriented business where people don't last unless they produce instantly and constantly. I believe that it is time for a change.

But....these comments that he is stupid, has no plan or vision, is to old to do the job, that the game has passed him by, just don't cut it.

Some of you make it sound (and you probably believe it), that he comes to work each day, looks around and says "what do we do now?" Some of you think that he learns about players only from what he reads or hear about, or only deals with GMs whose names he recognizes.

What bosh.

It is highly likely that other GMs approach any deal with Sather with great trepidation thinking they are going to get taken and skinned alive. I think he has enormous respect around the league for his smarts.

Of course he has a plan. Of course he has a vision. It is quite simple: draft and develop young players. Sign high quality free agents. Use some of his young assets for trades and player acquisition. Fill wholes as they develop due to injuries, players not developing as projected, circumstance.

But just because you have a plan doesn't mean it is going to work. 29 other GMs also have a plan.

Plans also can't be stationary: starting at one point and ending say 5 years later with winning the Cup. Plans can't be static, they must be dynamic, organic and open to constant modification and change as circumstances happen. To not adapt is a recipe for failure. You can't always be rebuilding and swapping players in their prime or just beyond for prospects.

So. what is Sather's record?

His idea of bridge contract, which he pushed and championed, was a good one. Say to a player coming off an ELC. we're going to pay you 3 million dollars for the next two years. Prove to us that he deserve a long term commitment. Unfortunately, his idea for bridge contracts was undermined by other GMs in the league. For once, Sather was the voice of economic reason. Sather will have to change in this regards: bridge contracts have been rendered obsolete.

His first few coach hires were terrible but he has improved tremendously: hardly the mark of a man to old to do the job. Renney: the perfect coach to restore a semblance of system and pride to the Rangers. Torts: the perfect coach to take us to the next level before he was destroyed by his own private demons (what a mess in Vancouver). AV: the perfect coach for today's skating and skill dominated NHL.

Free agency: a mixed bag. Any free agency signing is a gamble. The one I fault him for is Redden, as the red flags were flying when he was signed. A horrible signing. We all loved the Drury signing. Who could have foreseen injuries and premature aging. Gomez: remember how weak we were at center? At the time it seemed a good signing. Richards: although there were some nay-sayers, everyone loved the signing. Again, who could have predicted early aging here. Guys he signed for depth like Pyatt: well, these were depth signings and I can't get to worked up about them.

Drafting: our record has been average but the draft is a great crap shoot and over the long run, just about every team is average. We've had some bad luck here with injuries and worse (some of these go back to before Sather) that just illustrate how chancy the draft is (Cherepanov, Cherneski, Blackburn...does anyone remember how good he was?) Even to some extent Jessiman: who knows how much his broken ankle affected his skating. Jury is still out on McI and the effect of his knee injury.

Trades: good and bad just like most GMs. He has always been chasing two things: pure goal scorers (Lisin, Zherdev, Nash) and centers (few ever available).

Bottom line: Sather is a wily, savvy GM with a plan. He is not stupid, he is not without vision, he is not to old for the job.

But, this is a results business. He's been at it a long time and we have not won the Cup or made it to the finals. One conference finals in not enough. So much is out of his control: who could have foreseen Torts wearing out his welcome a year early, Gaborik's poor year in the year we should have been a serious contender, the lockout and its effect on Richards.

Yes, he should be replaced. We are in a real mess right now with Cally and Girardi. But can we stop insulting the man's intelligence and making him seem like a blithering idiot? You may dislike him (I'm always upset with how little we hear from him during the season and have made my share of jokes about him preferring Banff to NY...can't blame him, what a beautiful place), be frustrated and angry with how he does things and our lack of success, question his decision making (we'll be arguing about the Nash trade for decades), think that we need to change (I do to), but the insults are a bit much to take.
 
Well that is the purpose of these boards. Discussion! ;)

A lot of people here (not saying you would) would trade the entire team including Lundqvist for 1st round picks/prospects tomorrow if they could. That is the way you build a dynasty in NHL 14. The problem is, the real world has winners and losers. Not every prospect turns out into the 4.5 star C you hoped for.

That is why I am so hellbent on keeping Brassard. So many here (not just yourself) would slot Miller in as the 2C tomorrow if they could. It just doesn't work that way. I agree he could be a 2C down the road but he needs to start off in the bottom 6. You could seriously ruin his confidence by starting him in the 2C spot if it fails. This teams chances of winning 1 round in the playoffs also go down the drain.

If I could, I'd keep the core together and try to even slightly upgrade the other areas. I like this team and i like the core.

I'd like a young center, a young offensive defenseman, and a young winger with size.

Otherwise, I don't think they are THAT far off. But those parts are hard to get if looking for high end players. But slight upgrades shouldn't be too hard.
 
A few facts, the cap was 56.8m when Toews deal was signed for example. They are cap friendly now lol? That is kind of my point. Toews got 11 percent of Chi's cap in 2010, that is equal to getting 7.9m this summer. 7.9m per would not be bad for a 22 y/o -- which Toews was when he signed that contract.

You are thinking exactly like Slats. Our way would have been to force Toews to take 5.75m over 3 years. Then being forced to match anyone on the UFA market.

You are NEVER going to get someone to sign long term unless you give a little premium. Just like Chicago did to a 22 y/o. A few years later however, you stand there thinking "wow those guys took cap friendly deals".

Go back and look, and you will see that it's. Exactly the same thing with Kane and Sharpe.

Hossa is signed until he is 43 I think. Surely that must mean that Chicago is doomed? Slats would NEVER risk that. This is how it will play out though. Hossa will play until he wants to retire. Who knows when that will be, 36/38/40. Then he got two options. He can go to a doctor and say (i) "hey I am hurt sign this paper" and collect a little insurance money or (ii) screw Chi by officially retire. But but but, he might be healthy??? I can promise you that there isn't a human born who could play in the NHL until he was close to 40 without having one single ligament, joint, back, head or whatever to point at. I mean, in reality it's the opposite. These guys has a problem to point at one part of their body NOT hurt. Watch Slats buy out Richards.

But, Slats will nickle and dime with Brass, Stralsy, Stepan, Hagelin and co so that they hit UFA market on a regular basis. Save a few 100k one year instead of locking them up. The result is that they will have less value on the trade market, we will pay them a lot more once those 1-2 year deal runs out (watch and see with Stepan), and we will jump on and pain insane contracts to players who paid their dues elsewhere.

It's sickening really.


I should really read on a little before responding to a post. I see a lot of you guys had the same thoughts I do on the deals for those 4 Blackhawk players. Saw Dethomas' post also.
 
I agree with you on principle (though I don't think Callahan has a proper role on this team and should be traded for that reason), but Stepan's deal turned out to be a necessity.

I wanted him locked up on an 8 year contract, but as it turned out we were right up against the cap with his cheap bridge deal - we didn't have the room to sign him for longer.

We couldn't resign stepan to a better deal bc we chose to keep Richards on the roster. Richards has be OK this season, happy he showed up in shape to play this year. I think that is the major reason most hate on Richards. BC he was supposed to be the veteran leader and he completely no-showed last season, he couldn't even stay on his skates.
 
Just my take,

I think the most likely outcome is both Callahan and Girardi are signed to contracts nobody really loves and most are scared of.

2nd most likely, one is signed and the other kept without a contract.

I just think trading either, or both becomes like the 3rd, 4th, 5th most likely option.

I do not see the Rangers getting the return for them that will allow for them to go another direction for this season or allow for enough future return to tip the long term/short term scales.
 
Can you guys explain to me why you nitpick every weakness that the Rangers have but don't do the same for other teams? The team we embarrassed yesterday (back to back or not, still embarrassed them) is 20 ****ing games over .500 in a supposedly stacked West. We've played all of these contenders outside of Pittsburgh that one game and Tampa Bay that one game (and even then 5-0 was not even close to the level of play) close. A bounce or 2 and we win. Look at the St. Louis game, puck hits Steen's skate, trickles past Lundqvist and they get half their goals. We outshot them by like 10. We got some chances (not as many as usual, but they're an elite defensive team). On the other hand you have Leafs that were decimated every time they played the Bruins for years and Boston needed a miracle to beat them last year. We're way better than that Leafs team, IMO. They actually play similar speed game to us, except we can control the puck, and have a top D corps. There are no 01 Avs, no 02 Wings, in the league this year. Our chances aren't great, but giving up before they even play seems like an overly pessimistic view.
 
cally playing well is good news to me. this will maintain his value. thats a good thing.

this organization can survive and prosper without ryan callahan. the better he plays, the more likely he will stick with his demands and the more likely another team will meet them.

as a rental or a sign and trade, his real value to this team is what he brings back and the fact that we wont be burdened by his cap killing contract for the next 6-7 yrs.

rock on ryan :yo:

Agreed.
 
Watch the Rangers against Boston,St.Louis,Anaheim and LA. Even Pittsburgh. The Rangers beat LA in LA. The Kings beat them in NY. It was early in the year. Close but no cigar. The games are close but the Rangers always seem to lose. There isn't much room on the ice. The Blues game two weeks ago. The Rangers were competitive but they lost. The Rangers have those small centers. LA had Kopitar and Richards at center. Stoll is 6-1 210. LA had a big team with Nolan and King. Brown played the best of hockey of his career in the first 2-3 rounds. Brown is 6-0 205. Penner scored big goals. Another big player. Look at the size of the Kings forwards and compare them to the Rangers. The smaller players get worn down in the playoffs.

The Rangers look at other teams and say they are flawed. Other teams view the Rangers as flawed.

The Rangers are small down the middle. Miller could help. LW with a certain skill set could help. Stepan, Brass as 1st and 2nd, or 1st and 3rd centers puts Rangers in a disadvantage in games against teams with bigger centers.

Isn't Mike Richards only like 5' 10.. Is he built like Neil or something, he doesn't seem very big to me.
 
His idea of bridge contract, which he pushed and championed, was a good one. Say to a player coming off an ELC. we're going to pay you 3 million dollars for the next two years. Prove to us that he deserve a long term commitment. Unfortunately, his idea for bridge contracts was undermined by other GMs in the league. For once, Sather was the voice of economic reason. Sather will have to change in this regards: bridge contracts have been rendered obsolete.

Derek Stepan would disagree with you.
 
Or the bad decision.

i just don't understand the thought process that leads one to want to keep him if they can't re-sign him. I want the Rangers to compete for the next 10-15 years. Not just for the remained of the season.

For sure, if we just got one piece back that we could count on helping us (for a couple of years at least), the decision to move him would be a lot easier.

If we only get an avg 3-4 line forward or very late 1st, the decision is a lot harder. We could do perfectly well without the first asset with Miller jus takin over Cally's spot in the lineup, and the later got like 5-10% chance of becoming a decent top 2 line forward / top 4 pairing D.

That type if package is something I could live without. A 5-10 percent lottery ticket and leftovers from teams that basically are as good as us...

Stewert is only locked up for one more year, if he comes here and plays well he hits the UFA market as a 28 y/o and easily gets 6+m per on the market with a 80m cap. With Slats strategy of not believing in long contracts we would of course loose him. That basically means that we trade one POs of Cally for two POs of Stewert.
 
If they Rangers decide the best course is to lose Callahan for nothing, they may be worse off than I thought in terms of management.

I can only hope it is being leaked/floated to up trade offers. Just a terrible idea.
 
The team that really scares me is Pittsburgh, and Chicago is of course really good (but it is really tough to play in June, there is a reason why no team has repeated since I don't know when).

OTOH, it might not always seem like it, but if you have a flaw it will expose you in the NHL POs. We are not yet there in the transition game. We can complain on the roster, but I think the biggest weakness is that we haven't passed the puck like we are now under the pressure of a POs etc. When we revert to throwing the puck away, we are as worthless as we were under Torts.

I would not bet on this being the year for us.
 
Callahan lived through, and was largely influenced by, the Drury years. Drury got his fat contract, broke down, and was bought out. Redden got his fat contract, sucked, got buried in the AHL, then bought out.

I can't really blame him for wanting to milk this next contract, but if you look at the majority of pending UFAs, most take a small discount to re-sign with their current teams. Callahan wants us to preemptively match what some other team is likely to give him in UFA, no discount at all. He's not even worth the offer that NYR already have on the table, but some craptastic team will give him exactly what he wants. If he would rather go to a rebuilding team, lose for 5 years, and then maybe get a shot at a cup the last 2 seasons of his 7-year contract, good for him. If you want to stay with a winner (and yes, even with all the cynicism here, this team makes the playoffs every season, so I think we can be classified as winners), you give a small discount.
 
Stewert is only locked up for one more year, if he comes here and plays well he hits the UFA market as a 28 y/o and easily gets 6+m per on the market with a 80m cap. With Slats strategy of not believing in long contracts we would of course loose him. That basically means that we trade one POs of Cally for two POs of Stewert.

Ola- Your opinion on the Rangers and long-term contracts has been fully explored. However, I find your findings to be completely flawed, and frankly wrong.

The Rangers strategy on contract length is actually nuanced, and for the most part, by good design. Bashing Sather and Co. is the consistent meme that everyone does (and enjoys), but it's not that clear cut or accurate. I've always been the camp that you should be paying the players as close to possible to their actual performance, for better or worse.

Many players coming off contract this season isn't a flaw, it's organizational flexibility and assessing windows. If you go back 5 yrs ago and listen to what HFBoards posters thought the roster would be, those predictions couldn't of been any more wrong. Couple that with the new NHL skewing younger and younger, the 'lock players up for maximum term and have their production catch up' is an unnecessary practice, w/ limited returns.

Having flexibility and how you use that flexibility are two different things. If the Rangers make poor decisions on how to amend and cycle the roster, that isn't a by-product of poor contract design, that is of poor personnel choice.

We all point to contracts like Duncan Keith, but the league will be filled w/ as many albatross contracts like Horcoff's. By having intermediate contract lengths, the Rangers can pivot and address needs and deficiencies, instead of being locked into teams/players that may no longer work.

Callahan being potentially traded isn't because the Rangers are adverse to longterm deals, it is because Callahan was never, and will never be a 6.75 million dollar player (under any cap projection) . If he was Stamkos, the Rangers would of had the 8 year deal signed and delivered at first opportunity.
 
not sure if posted...

2/5/14: 7:26PM: Girardi and the Rangers are believed to be “relatively close to a deal in principle” but nothing is official.
 
I wouldn't mind keeping Callahan and making a run, team looks really good right now. I'd rather do that then sell him for less than he's worth.
 
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