Rumor: Trade Thread XVII: Callahan's Reckoning.

[NYR Viper]

Et tu, Brooksie? Whats with his article today? The Rangers should treat Callahan as if he was a rental? Ignore reality? Let a spurt of good hockey allow the team to throw out any sort of long-term strategy (again)??

Im sick of it.

That would literally be the worst idea.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

We all make decisions and form opinions based on our past experiences. I have seen enough players who play similarly to Callahan over their careers to feel pretty confident in the fact that when he reaches 30, it will be like a normal player hitting 35. Even if he is the exception to the rule and is 32 but looks 35, that leaves him with another 3 years with a 7 year deal.

This isn't a skilled player who can still control a game with his exceptional hockey IQ or puck control or size. This is a player who plays exceptionally hard and puts his body on the line every game. He is 5'10-5'11, not 6'3.

I understand. I'm just saying it could be later than people expect. He doesn't have to follow the same mold of anyone else.

Clearly, history offers a list of comparables that have seen a plummet in production and physical ability after 30 or 31 (or years 2 or 3 of his next extension).

AV has been playing Cally 15-18 minutes per game. That's substantially less than under Torts. He's also instilled an offensive minded style of play that doesn't force our forwards to dive to block the puck or grind out the boards on a consistent basis. I think the deterioration could take place at a much slower pace under this coach - or maybe even be deferred several years past the norm.

Then again, I can be wrong and he could follow the mold of his comparables. I think -31- gave a chart showing production. The lines went down after 30/31 at a rapid pace, and of course... that is alarming.

The point is, no one knows how it'll go. AV's style of play and general philosophy doesn't lead me to believe that there will be a rapid deterioration period though.

If we still had Torts, I would be looking at this much differently.

 

[Ail]

Aging or heading into his prime peak years?

Anisimov or Dubinsky comparable to the captain of the team?

I understand it is a business but not taking care of your players when it comes time, just so that you can go out and sign another over rated mercenary, isn't a good look. No matter how you put it.

Stastny may fill a need, just as much as Richards does right now. He'll get 1c money and produce at a 2c production and give you inconsistent effort.

Callahan will be paid like a 1 RW and produce as a fringe 2 RW and good 3 RW, but will give you consistent effort game in and game out.

That's the trade off. Locker room effect, likely tanking the season this year, but getting consistent effort that others feel comfortable looking up to or raising your offensive potential and likely output, potentially making a swift comeback next year from the falldown this year, but getting an inconsistent effort that others may use as a reference point to lower their work ethic.

Players see that inconsistent effort gets them 7, maybe 7.5 mill? That's the precedent. It's a bad one.

No, the players see that Sather went to FA to fill a team need because he had one other choice and it is not a very Glen Sather option. You are putting your own bias on the perspective of the players.

Dubinsky was as much heart and soul as Callahan. The difference is one wears a C. They traded a heart soul home grown player, and another inconsistent one. People around here still lament that. You are putting so much stock in to that C that isn't even there. You don't over pay a player in a position of organizational strength who will be your 3rd best player there because of effort and lockerooms.

Henrik got over paid, and rightfully so. Callahan is not in that boat, sorry.

 

[NYR Viper]

I understand. I'm just saying it could be later than people expect. He doesn't have to follow the same mold of anyone else.

Clearly, history offers a list of comparables that have seen a plummet in production and physical ability after 30 or 31 (or years 2 or 3 of his next extension).

AV has been playing Cally 15-18 minutes per game. That's substantially less than under Torts. He's also instilled an offensive minded style of play that doesn't force our forwards to dive to block the puck or grind out the boards on a consistent basis. I think the deterioration could take place at a much slower pace under this coach - or maybe even be deferred several years past the norm.

Then again, I can be wrong and he could follow the mold of his comparables. I think -31- gave a chart showing production. The lines went down after 30/31 at a rapid pace, and of course... that is alarming.

The point is, no one knows how it'll go. AV's style of play and general philosophy doesn't lead me to believe that there will be a rapid deterioration period though.

If we still had Torts', I would be looking at this much differently.

Good point on the lower amount of playing time and less grinding style, however, do you want to pay Callahan 7 million year for 7 years if he is only playing 18 minutes a game at 28? That time will on;y go down over the life of this contract.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Does anyone else remember what Callahan used to be?

He used to be all over the place, throwing big hits.

He used to be a hound on the puck.

He used to influence every game.


He's not that player anymore. That player I would give almost $7M to. And it's not his fault, he's just clearly lost a step in my opinion. He's still a good finisher and passer (when he's not doing those annoying behind-the-back passes he learned from Richards), but he simply doesn't have the impact on the game that he used to.

And it's only going to get worse with age.

 

[Ail]

Et tu, Brooksie? Whats with his article today? The Rangers should treat Callahan as if he was a rental? Ignore reality? Let a spurt of good hockey allow the team to throw out any sort of long-term strategy (again)??

Im sick of it.

It's quite crazy.

If they want to go for it fine but don't make stupid decisions that will affect the team beyond this year.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

What's sickening is the thought that we would nickle and dime Toews. Paying him what he's worth is what Chicago did... And paying Cally what he's worth is what Sather wants to do. The deal Cally has been offered by the NYR is MORE than fair.

Yes he could get more elsewhere. He's not worth it. Just like most UFAs aren't worth what they get. It's a bidding war... The player will always get more when 2+ teams are bidding for their services. Toews was extended by his team and is on a bargain contract compare to
A) his play since
B) the relative value to the cap

Cally gonna get better as time goes? Doubtful.

Cally worth 7/6.5+ NOPE

So, why would u pay him what he's not worth right now... AND he's more than likely to not sustain that level LET ALONE improve???

Callahan, as a player, may not be worth the contract his agent is asking for. However, Chris Stewart is a garbage player and is a garbage return. Sather is blinded by his size and his skill, skill that he doesn't use nearly enough on a consistent basis. He is a UFA in one year and will command a ton on his next contract. So, Sather is about to lose Callahan for less than a full season of service from Stewart?

Root of the problem: Sather.

Don't low ball core pieces into short term deals that expire all in the same season.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

That would literally be the worst idea.

Is another couple of months of Callahan to go on another wing and a prayer playoff run really the strategy here?

 

[NYR Viper]

Callahan, as a player, may not be worth the contract his agent is asking for. However, Chris Stewart is a garbage player and is a garbage return. Sather is blinded by his size and his skill, skill that he doesn't use nearly enough on a consistent basis. He is a UFA in one year and will command a ton on his next contract. So, Sather is about to lose Callahan for less than a full season of service from Stewart?

Root of the problem: Sather.

Don't low ball core pieces into short term deals that expire all in the same season.

The deal isn't just Stewart though. He is a piece.

A 20-25 goal scoring forward at 26 + for Callahan isn't the worst return I could see happening. Stewart is a pretty good player. He isn't Lucic or Backes. He is a goal scorer in a power forwards body.

 

[Tawnos]

Is another couple of months of Callahan to go on another wing and a prayer playoff run really the strategy here?

Is Brooks even saying that it is?

 

[NYR Viper]

Is another couple of months of Callahan to go on another wing and a prayer playoff run really the strategy here?

I don't consider that a strategy. I consider that laziness. I'm sure you do too.

Just awful. Make the hard decision. They have some good pieces here and on the way. Keep the flexibility and return some assets.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Good point on the lower amount of playing time and less grinding style, however, do you want to pay Callahan 7 million year for 7 years if he is only playing 18 minutes a game at 28? That time will on;y go down over the life of this contract.

No. 7 years and 7 million is too much. My compromise would be 6 years at 5.85. If that's a no go, he can go get his 7 mill for 7 years from the Sabres and have to deal with several more years of mediocrity, several years of growing pains, and likely finish out his contract regressing during the years they're projected to actually be contenders.

I think in 4 years, despite reports of the falling Canadian dollar, the cap will be significantly higher - and a 5.85 a year contract will be worth like 4.5 in today's cap (percentage wise).

If he's unwilling to go under 7 and 7 (or even 6 and 6)... then the reality is he needs to be traded and we'll all have to accept that a biproduct is very likely giving up on this season (i.e. one of the most promising seasons we've look to be having in the last 5 seasons - obviously the ECF appearance seasons takes the cake but this one is getting close to it). That would be the reality of it. You can't get taken hostage by 1 player, especially one that boasts being the captain as his only real leverage point.

 

[NYR Viper]

No. 7 years and 7 million is too much. My compromise would be 6 years at 5.85. If that's a no go, he can go get his 7 mill for 7 years from the Sabres and have to deal with several more years of mediocrity, several years of growing pains, and likely finish out his contract regressing during the years they're projected to actually be contenders.

I think in 4 years, despite reports of the falling Canadian dollar, the cap will be significantly higher - and a 5.85 a year contract will be worth like 4.5 in today's cap (percentage wise).

If he's unwilling to go under 7 and 7 (or even 6 and 6)... then the reality is he needs to be traded and we'll all have to accept that a biproduct is very likely giving up on this season (i.e. one of the most promising seasons we've look to be having in the last 5 seasons - obviously the ECF appearance seasons takes the cake but this one is getting close to it). That would be the reality of it. You can't get taken hostage by 1 player, especially one that boasts being the captain as his only real leverage point.

I don't think it totally gives up on the season though. Like you said, he is playing 17-18 minutes a night. Rarely on the PP. PK time can be replaced.

 

[Ola]

"Sather isn’t low-balling or hard-balling Callahan here with what is believed a five-year offer worth $30 million. No one is being disrespected or insulted. Lord knows, no one has suggested that is the case, and most certainly not Callahan." (Brooks)

Yes, to offer a 28/29 y/o -- who you are asking to take a hometown discount -- a five year deal when the player want 7 is a low-ball offer.

Clarkson and Clowe signed their deals when the cap was 63m. The cap will go up 10+ percent. Clarkson is signed at 5.25 for 7 years, ten percent on that is 5.8m. That is what we are offering Cally for 5 years, and Cally is a year younger than Clarkson who got 7...

Also, we know what Cally is asking for. It's a lot. We are not close to it. I would be suprised if Cally didn't move if Slats loosened the hand break on the term.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

No, the players see that Sather went to FA to fill a team need because he had one other choice and it is not a very Glen Sather option. You are putting your own bias on the perspective of the players.

Dubinsky was as much heart and soul as Callahan. The difference is one wears a C. They traded a heart soul home grown player, and another inconsistent one. People around here still lament that. You are putting so much stock in to that C that isn't even there. You don't over pay a player in a position of organizational strength who will be your 3rd best player there because of effort and lockerooms.

Henrik got over paid, and rightfully so. Callahan is not in that boat, sorry.

I think for the most part we are in agreement and are arguing about incredible hypotheticals that may actually never occur.

I'm not in favor of overpaying Callahan. But if he's asking for a fair term and aav... and we choose to let go of him and give an over inflated contract to someone who screams inconsistency... that's wrong.

If he forces his way out for the money he'll get what he is looking for... money and no cup. The contract he's looking for will cripple a team in the long run.

But the contract Stastny is also looking for will cripple it just as well.

 

[NHRangerfan]

If Ryan Callahans agent is asking for 6.5 mill 7 years....he doesn't want to be a Ranger.

Not sure who is going to give him that deal on the open market either. That deal needs to go to an elite player. Ryan is a solid player when he's not injured, but he's not elite.

The Laffs gave Clarkson a deal with an AAV of 5.25...someone will give him that money

 

[Tawnos]

I don't consider that a strategy. I consider that laziness. I'm sure you do too.

Just awful. Make the hard decision. They have some good pieces here and on the way. Keep the flexibility and return some assets.

Not that I think this is what should happen, but deciding to keep Callahan over the potential return is a hard decision. And it is obviously wouldn't be laziness since it isn't like Sather is not negotiating or shopping.

But, as we see time and again, this is just a reaction to a pundit's speculation. Way too much premature reaction around here.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Is Brooks even saying that it is?

The tone of that article seems to be Brooks wilting to the Ranger way of doing business.

Which is, and always has been, "screw tomorrow"

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I don't think it totally gives up on the season though. Like you said, he is playing 17-18 minutes a night. Rarely on the PP. PK time can be replaced.

I mean if there is a time to trade him and potentially salvage the season it would be right before the Olympics so that other players can adjust.

I think it would severely effect the locker room though. I could be wrong. We'll have to wait and see. If he's traded and the locker room has no effect, I'll gladly own up to it.

Usually though, this type of move will have terrible results on other players.

This move would be with the future in mind. Keeping him would be with the present in mind. What's Sather committing to? We'll also find that out soon enough.

 

[DudMan28]

I understand. I'm just saying it could be later than people expect. He doesn't have to follow the same mold of anyone else.

Clearly, history offers a list of comparables that have seen a plummet in production and physical ability after 30 or 31 (or years 2 or 3 of his next extension).

AV has been playing Cally 15-18 minutes per game. That's substantially less than under Torts. He's also instilled an offensive minded style of play that doesn't force our forwards to dive to block the puck or grind out the boards on a consistent basis. I think the deterioration could take place at a much slower pace under this coach - or maybe even be deferred several years past the norm.

Then again, I can be wrong and he could follow the mold of his comparables. I think -31- gave a chart showing production. The lines went down after 30/31 at a rapid pace, and of course... that is alarming.

The point is, no one knows how it'll go. AV's style of play and general philosophy doesn't lead me to believe that there will be a rapid deterioration period though.

If we still had Torts, I would be looking at this much differently.

I just think its a bad idea to give him a huge contract and hope he lasts. Thats putting the team in a bad spot if he does break down early. If you can get similar production out of a guy like Stewart, for less money, with extra assets thrown in, I think you have to do it.

We haven't exactly won anything with Cally. We couldnt get to the SCF when we played the 6-7-8 seeds. Sure he brings the intangibles and effort, but that alone doesnt make me want to through 6.8 mil at him for 6-7 years. Good management gets the value out of their assets before they become a burden.

 

[Kakko]

It would be great if Dustin Brown started not sucking. Maybe even playing better than ever before.

He's the player, and contract Callahan is so often compared to. Next year, the he starts an 8 year deal, paying $5,875,000 a year. With how he's performing, if you look at it in a vacuum, Callahan would have every right to be asking for $7 million.

So, yeah. Please stop being terrible Dustin Brown

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I don't consider that a strategy. I consider that laziness. I'm sure you do too.

Just awful. Make the hard decision. They have some good pieces here and on the way. Keep the flexibility and return some assets.

UFAs (minimum return IMO)
F - Callahan (young 3rd liner +1st/equivalent prospect)
F - Boyle (3rd/equivalent)
F - Pouliot (2nd/equivalent)
F - Moore (3rd/equivalent)
F - Carcillo (7th)
D - Girardi (young bottom 4 D + 1st/equivalent + prospect)
D - Stralman (2nd)

Callahan plus 1 or 2 more Fs and 1 D should be traded from that group, enough to get back some very good assets.

 

[NYR Viper]

Not that I think this is what should happen, but deciding to keep Callahan over the potential return is a hard decision. And it is obviously wouldn't be laziness since it isn't like Sather is not negotiating or shopping.

But, as we see time and again, this is just a reaction to a pundit's speculation. Way too much premature reaction around here.

If they don't foresee being able to re-sign him, it's an easy decision. Losing a player like him for nothing would be far worse than moving him close to the deadline and returning something. One helps the organization in the long haul. The other trades long-term health for a shot in the dark.

The Laffs gave Clarkson a deal with an AAV of 5.25...someone will give him that money

I agree, but that contract is already looked at as a bad contract.

I mean if there is a time to trade him and potentially salvage the season it would be right before the Olympics so that other players can adjust.

I think it would severely effect the locker room though. I could be wrong. We'll have to wait and see. If he's traded and the locker room has no effect, I'll gladly own up to it.

Usually though, this type of move will have terrible results on other players.

This move would be with the future in mind. Keeping him would be with the present in mind. What's Sather committing to? We'll also find that out soon enough.

I would hope it's both. There are ways to do both.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

It would be great if Dustin Brown started not sucking. Maybe even playing better than ever before.

He's the player, and contract Callahan is so often compared to. Next year, the he starts an 8 year deal, paying $5,875,000 a year. With how he's performing, if you look at it in a vacuum, Callahan would have every right to be asking for $7 million.

So, yeah. Please stop being terrible Dustin Brown

Good point. I agr... sorry, distracted by Ginny again.

 

[Tawnos]

The tone of that article seems to be Brooks wilting to the Ranger way of doing business.

Which is, and always has been, "screw tomorrow"

No, it really hasn't. When was the last time the Rangers traded youth for age, anyway?

But that being said... it's Larry Brooks speculation. He doesn't say he's hearing rumblings that this is what management is thinking. He's saying that there's a logic behind keeping the player, if that's what the Rangers decide to do. When have you ever known Brooks to be good at speculation? Rumors, maybe. But "maybe there’s an entirely different perspective for Glen Sather to adopt" does not suggest rumor, even remotely.