Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic]

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Cosmix

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The police have one chance to get this right and the case involves millionaire players. The police’s, and player’s, credibility is on the line and lawsuits will follow. No doubt they want to a thorough investigation.
This is their second chance to get it right.

The difference could be that while the police could lay charges, I think the prosecution only typically prosecutes cases that have a chance of winning, otherwise it’s not really in the public interest? The difference between those two thresholds could be the issue/hold up/sticking point.

The LD likely want to make sure there is no egg on their face by releasing that they have enough information to press charge, puts any further issues on the prosecutors doorstep. Which matters in this case because the Gov is sniffing around and making things very public.
I thought that the police conduct the investigation and discuss the evidence with the crown attorneys who would prosecute the case if the crown attorneys believe that the evidence warrants such prosecution. It is taking a long time to get through that process.
 
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Cosmix

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i think greig is set in stone to start the season as a 4th liner with a quick leash (depending on the coach)

if formenton is able to come back

formenton-Pinto-Joseph
Greig-Kastelic-XXXX

if formenton isnt able to come back
XXXX-Pinto-Joseph
Greig-Kastelic-XXXX

if we get kelly from 2 years ago i am fine with him getting that 4th line spot, if we dont then yeah we need upgrade

whoever we get for that 4th line needs to be an average nhl skater at least
I have $5 that says Kelly will be on the 23 man roster for next season.
 

Cosmix

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Anyone see the article in the Globe this week about the HC situation?

Apparently the league has turned over everything it knows about the situation based on its review and player interviews. London police have indicated they've got enough info to charge 5 people with sexual assault

I kind of wonder about London police saying they could charge 5. If they could, why haven't they.

I hope this gets settled in time to make roster decisions with / without Formenton
I read that article and it stated:

"Last October, London police investigators filed a 94-page court document with the Ontario Court of Justice stating they had reasonable grounds to believe that five players sexually assaulted a woman in a hotel room in the early morning hours of June 19, 2018. The application asked a judge to approve warrants and production orders, including for the “fruits of the investigative file” collected by lawyer Danielle Robitaille, who was hired by Hockey Canada to investigate the incident."

It did NOT state that they have "got enough info to charge 5 people with sexual assault". The police are seeking more information and evidence about the allegations.
 

Ice-Tray

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I read that article and it stated:

"Last October, London police investigators filed a 94-page court document with the Ontario Court of Justice stating they had reasonable grounds to believe that five players sexually assaulted a woman in a hotel room in the early morning hours of June 19, 2018. The application asked a judge to approve warrants and production orders, including for the “fruits of the investigative file” collected by lawyer Danielle Robitaille, who was hired by Hockey Canada to investigate the incident."

It did NOT state that they have "got enough info to charge 5 people with sexual assault". The police are seeking more information and evidence about the allegations.

That makes more sense.
 

Burrowsaurus

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Anyone see the article in the Globe this week about the HC situation?

Apparently the league has turned over everything it knows about the situation based on its review and player interviews. London police have indicated they've got enough info to charge 5 people with sexual assault

I kind of wonder about London police saying they could charge 5. If they could, why haven't they.

I hope this gets settled in time to make roster decisions with / without Formenton
mmm i dono. i think they said that early on to push through with the investigation. to reopen it essentially. but what do i know. your question is right. they said that a long time ago. and still no charges. unless they’ve just waited on the hockey investigation to be done
 

Wondercarrot

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I thought that the police conduct the investigation and discuss the evidence with the crown attorneys who would prosecute the case if the crown attorneys believe that the evidence warrants such prosecution. It is taking a long time to get through that process.

*Inserts Law & Order opening here*
 

Samboni

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I am not a lawyer so I cannot comment based on knowledge on that. Maybe a lawyer on this board could tell us more about the process and any limitations in it.
You can’t prosecute someone twice for the same offence.
 
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Byron Bitz

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Everyone talks about this being an issue for Formenton but has Batherson been ruled out of being involved in this?
 

Cosmix

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You can’t prosecute someone twice for the same offence.
I looked up Double Jeopardy to find out more about it. In Wikipedia it was described as follows:

"Canada
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms includes provisions such as section 11(h) prohibiting double jeopardy. However, the prohibition only applies after an accused person has been "finally" convicted or acquitted. Canadian law allows the prosecution to appeal an acquittal based on legal errors. In rare circumstances, when a trial judge made all the factual findings necessary for a finding of guilt but misapplied the law, a court of appeal might also directly substitute an acquittal for a conviction. These cases are not considered double jeopardy because the appeal and the subsequent conviction are deemed to be a continuation of the original trial.

For an appeal from an acquittal to be successful, the Supreme Court of Canada requires the Crown to show that an error in law was made during the trial and that it contributed to the verdict. It has been argued that this test is unfairly beneficial to the prosecution. For instance, in his book My Life in Crime and Other Academic Adventures, Martin Friedland contends that the rule should be changed so that a retrial is granted only when the error is shown to be responsible for the verdict, not just a factor.

Though the Charter permits appeals of acquittals, there are still constitutional limits imposed on the scope of these appeals. In Corp. Professionnelle des Médecins v. Thibault, the Supreme Court struck down a provision of Quebec law that allowed appellate courts to conduct a de novo review of both legal and factual findings. In doing so, it held that the scope of an appeal may not extend to challenging findings of fact where no legal error has been made. At this point, the Court reasoned, the process ceases to be an appeal and instead becomes a new trial disguised as one.

A notable example cited by critics of Canada's appeal system is the case of Guy Paul Morin, who was wrongfully convicted in his second trial after the acquittal in his first trial was vacated by the Supreme Court. Another notable use of the system occurred in the case of child murderer Guy Turcotte, the Quebec Court of Appeal overturned the initial verdict of not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder and ordered a second trial after it found that the judge had erroneously instructed the jury. Turcotte was later convicted of second-degree murder in the second trial."
 

Cosmix

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Yes, but we need to get rid of money & I'm not sure there is a market for either Brannstrom or Joseph. This way we get to negotiate with him before he is UFA.
I think there is a market for Brannstrom as he has shown he is improving and is RFA which means a lower salary. Given his progress last season I want to retain him for the 3rd pair D.

With Joseph, I think there is a market for a player like him but other GMs would likley want the Senators to pay some of his salary. I think Joseph could turn into a decent complementary forward if he were to play with a decent play-making center (e.g., Norris, Pinto).
 

JD1

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I read that article and it stated:

"Last October, London police investigators filed a 94-page court document with the Ontario Court of Justice stating they had reasonable grounds to believe that five players sexually assaulted a woman in a hotel room in the early morning hours of June 19, 2018. The application asked a judge to approve warrants and production orders, including for the “fruits of the investigative file” collected by lawyer Danielle Robitaille, who was hired by Hockey Canada to investigate the incident."

It did NOT state that they have "got enough info to charge 5 people with sexual assault". The police are seeking more information and evidence about the allegations.
Ya I think I overstated that. Was going off foggy memory

I think the two statements are reasonably close. In Ontario, reasonable grounds means

Reasonable grounds is the point where credibly-based probability replaces suspicion. The concept of “reasonable grounds” is defined as the point where a credibly-based probability replaces mere suspicion.

So I think we're we probably are is the cops believe they can charge but the prosecutor's aren't on board yet?
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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I also can't help but wonder what a year in Europe might've done for Formenton's game. Will he still be the same player coming back here, or will this entire thing derail his play?
 

aragorn

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What would the Sens look like with both Tkachuks on two top lines?

B. Tkachuk - Stutzle - Giroux
M. Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
 

bicboi64

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Sens should have gone all in on Matthew instead of ADB.
Not sure what we could've offered that would've been as good of a package for a team that wanted to retool. We might even have to consider moving Batherson so the Flames get to stay competitive. Something like the 7th overall, Batherson and Grieg would be the starter.

I'm not a fan of MTkachuk since he crosses the line too much, but in hindsight, a hart calibre season on this team would've done wonders.
 

Hale The Villain

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Sens should have gone all in on Matthew instead of ADB.

Would have been nice but we couldn't compete with a Huberdeau, Weegar, 1st package.

Huberdeau had more points than Tkachuk last year, Weegar had 44 points and a 1st is a 1st.

That was actually an insanely good offer for Tkachuk given the circumstances, even if it's worked out about as bad as it could have so far for the Flames.
 

Cosmix

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Ya I think I overstated that. Was going off foggy memory

I think the two statements are reasonably close. In Ontario, reasonable grounds means

Reasonable grounds is the point where credibly-based probability replaces suspicion. The concept of “reasonable grounds” is defined as the point where a credibly-based probability replaces mere suspicion.

So I think we're we probably are is the cops believe they can charge but the prosecutor's aren't on board yet?
The law is an interesting subject. I thought of becoming a lawyer many years ago but went on a different path. Evidence is the key.

I want down the rathole to get the following concepts:

reasonable suspicion - A standard authorizing some police investigative techniques, such as an investigative detention. Reasonable suspicion is a lower standard than reasonable belief, but must be more than a mere hunch and must exist both subjectively and objectively. It deals with the possibility, rather than the probability, of crime.

reasonable belief - The standard required to authorize many police powers, such as obtaining a search warrant or arresting a person without a warrant. Reasonable belief as a standard to arrest requires that the arresting officer subjectively believe that the suspect has committed the offence and that objectively a reasonable person would reach the same conclusion. Reasonable grounds do not require as much evidence as a prima facie case, but do require that the thing believed be more likely than not.

prima facie case - The presentation of evidence which, if believed, would establish each of the elements necessary for the prosecution to succeed. In assessing whether a prima facie case is made out, a judge does not ask whether the evidence is likely to be believed; merely whether, if it were, would it establish the necessary things.
 

Ice-Tray

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The law is an interesting subject. I thought of becoming a lawyer many years ago but went on a different path. Evidence is the key.

I want down the rathole to get the following concepts:

reasonable suspicion - A standard authorizing some police investigative techniques, such as an investigative detention. Reasonable suspicion is a lower standard than reasonable belief, but must be more than a mere hunch and must exist both subjectively and objectively. It deals with the possibility, rather than the probability, of crime.

reasonable belief - The standard required to authorize many police powers, such as obtaining a search warrant or arresting a person without a warrant. Reasonable belief as a standard to arrest requires that the arresting officer subjectively believe that the suspect has committed the offence and that objectively a reasonable person would reach the same conclusion. Reasonable grounds do not require as much evidence as a prima facie case, but do require that the thing believed be more likely than not.

prima facie case - The presentation of evidence which, if believed, would establish each of the elements necessary for the prosecution to succeed. In assessing whether a prima facie case is made out, a judge does not ask whether the evidence is likely to be believed; merely whether, if it were, would it establish the necessary things.
Then there is prima nocat……
 
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