Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic]

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Injuries happen every year. Teams like Vegas and Colorado had tonnes of injuries and still made the playoffs.

My biggest concern though is we always come out of the gate so poorly. It is like the team can only win when the games don't matter.

Vegas and Colorado are elite teams they're the exception not the norm. Sens had the 3rd most WAR lost from injuries, far ahead of Florida, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo. This is also without Chychrun for quite some time.

 

[JD1]

We easily had a playoff roster this season and we were the worst team in the league at the end of November.

That's when you kind of want to check your own thinking against conventional wisdom

As far as I can tell, there wasn't anyone connected in hockey circles that had us in a playoff position come year end, let alone easily. The consensus was close but not quite.

Given that was the consensus and that's where we finished, that would suggest we landed right where expectations placed us. But the caveat to our season was losing Norris early and a string of goaltending injuries. That could have easily derailed our season but we kinda stuck with it.

At the end of the day, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I don't think there's much support for your view that we could have easily made the playoffs

Personally from what I glean of our system I’m not especially a fan.
Our system needs to account for highly competent D who can lead the rush, jump in the rush, pinch hard down the board as a matter of routine in the Ozone, cycle through down low with the forwards.
More like Carolina and a 5 man unit rather than two separate groups which is the way we seem to play.

I think we need a little more maturity to get there

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I think that new contract is gonna come in at 7-8.

Anyone who pays that for a guy who scored 8 goals in 50 games this year is just as much of a shithead as Bertuzzi himself. Hard pass.

 

[Cosmix]

Yep surmised the same , when heard May 15 bids would be due. Figured by time approval goes through, it’s going to be too late.

It's never too late.

 

[Cosmix]

Lmao what a f***ing joke if true.

Boston and NYR fired coaches just for losing in round 1, Sens stick with DJ despite repeated failures.

Those teams are in a hurry to win whereas the Senators have not been. The roster construction by Ottawa has been abysmal; the team's objective has not been to put the best possible team on the ice for quite a few years now. The budget is one of the reasons for it. The GM's decisions have been another.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Those teams are in a hurry to win whereas the Senators have not been. The roster construction by Ottawa has been abysmal; the team's objective has not been to put the best possible team on the ice for quite a few years now. The budget is one of the reasons for it. The GM's decisions have been another.

High draft picks to build around

 

[SpezDispenser]

This year there's zero excuses to miss the playoffs. If they're kept, then everyone from Dorion down to Smith should be accountable - and on a short leash. Like November 1st short leash.

 

[Hun]

We were missing Norris and Zub for most of that period, Sanderson was playing his first ~20 pro games, and we hadn't yet traded for Chychrun. I don't think anybody thought we easily had a playoff roster at that point even before the injuries, to say we did with the benefit of hindsight is quite the feat.

Why do the Senators have so many injuries every season? Why do we play bad every November? Are there any questions to the head coach about this?

 

[GCK]

Those teams are in a hurry to win whereas the Senators have not been. The roster construction by Ottawa has been abysmal; the team's objective has not been to put the best possible team on the ice for quite a few years now. The budget is one of the reasons for it. The GM's decisions have been another.

Bang on. No GM could have built a playoff team on the budget Dorion had for 4 of the years but a good GM would have had us in a much better position going into last season. Bad owner + bad GM.

 

[JD1]

Bang on. No GM could have built a playoff team on the budget Dorion had for 4 of the years but a good GM would have had us in a much better position going into last season. Bad owner + bad GM.

What would a good GM have done differently heading in to last season?

 

[Micklebot]

What would a good GM have done differently heading in to last season?

I think heading into last season, the one thing I'd have liked to see is the priority being shoring up the backend first rather than the wing. I think if you swap the timing of Chychrun and DeBrincat trades, we'd have had a better chance at the playoffs. I'd also have preferred to hold onto C.Brown until the deadline.

Once the season began, I'd have liked to see us backfill the hole created by losing Norris to injury,

In both cases, it's easier said than done (outside of holding onto Brown), the asking price for Chychrun may have come down over time hence the delay, and not many teams are looking to trade a top 9 center that can play on the second line in a pinch ⁵ games into the season.

I think our moves, or lack thereof, gave more insight into our expectations for the year. If we really thought this was the year to make the playoffs, we'd have held onto Brown, and found someone to help backfill Norris; instead, we didn't put short term goals ahead of long term and stayed the course.

 

[OgieO]

We were missing Norris and Zub for most of that period, Sanderson was playing his first ~20 pro games, and we hadn't yet traded for Chychrun. I don't think anybody thought we easily had a playoff roster at that point even before the injuries, to say we did with the benefit of hindsight is quite the feat.

But a 2-10-1 stretch during that time frame essentially sunk our season. A recurring pattern for Smith no matter the roster quality. Season effectively over by Christmas. We went into that season with so much hope - failing so miserably so early in the season was the last thing we needed after the summer additions. Was our roster so bad that he couldn't have devised a way to keep us competitive there? Every team struggles during a season - but not that badly.

People like to (fairly) say we were close at the end of the season - but Smith has a pattern of sinking early, doing well later in season when playing against many backups and without any pressure then riding that positive vibe into the offseason with the context of "nobody thought we'd be playoff team and we were almost there in the end". But he can't get the team to perform to that level when it matters.

When we actually did kinda creep back into the playoff hunt a bit this year, we quickly lost 5 of 6 to teams like Chicago, Vancouver & Calgary. I am not sure there's any evidence to support Smith deserving a shot to get this team over the hump. If he's shown anything, its that he can't.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

What would a good GM have done differently heading in to last season?

Hire a new coach.

 

[BankStreetParade]

But a 2-10-1 stretch during that time frame essentially sunk our season. A recurring pattern for Smith no matter the roster quality. Season effectively over by Christmas. We went into that season with so much hope - failing so miserably so early in the season was the last thing we needed after the summer additions. Was our roster so bad that he couldn't have devised a way to keep us competitive there? Every team struggles during a season - but not that badly.

People like to (fairly) say we were close at the end of the season - but Smith has a pattern of sinking early, doing well later in season when playing against many backups and without any pressure then riding that positive vibe into the offseason with the context of "nobody thought we'd be playoff team and we were almost there in the end". But he can't get the team to perform to that level when it matters.

When we actually did kinda creep back into the playoff hunt a bit this year, we quickly lost 5 of 6 to teams like Chicago, Vancouver & Calgary. I am not sure there's any evidence to support Smith deserving a shot to get this team over the hump. If he's shown anything, its that he can't.

They started the year 4-2 before the Norris injury. Talbot started the year on IR. Forsberg essentially blew up both of his knees. Zub, our 1RD, ended up missing half the season. Formenton didn't play a game for us. Pinto, a rookie, played 2C almost the entire year. We had 7 starting goalies this year, which is one of the highest numbers in a single season in NHL history. Sanderson, a rookie, got his first pro season under his belt. And we didn't trade for Chychrun until March.

Despite that, we played at a 95 point pace for the vast majority of the season (65 games). The idea that they played well when the pressure was off is kind of ridiculous. Maybe you could say that about a team well out of the playoffs going on a hot streak for the last 15 games of the year but it's not a cohesive theory about a team that did it for 65 out of 82 games.

I'm not advocating for Smith here, btw, but I think he's done the job he's been asked to do. If they can find the right person to accomplish the next set of goals with this roster then they should make it happen. But I don't believe change for the sake of change is the healthiest choice either.

Asking a young, inexperienced team to get over this many hurdles in one season is not the norm. And don't forget, this team was still operating on a dollar in, dollar out budget this year. That should improve, hopefully, going forward. Expanding our front office and scouting departments should hopefully happen too. Ultimately, the roster construction needs tweaks, not major surgery. All the pieces are there and if a 95 point pace, through those ridiculous circumstances, across 65 games last year is not enough of an indication of the quality that's there, then you clearly won't be happy with the way things are.

 

[GCK]

What would a good GM have done differently heading in to last season?

Well a good GM would have

- acquired additional assets in the Stone trade
- not use 7OA and 9M in cash on the least important position when we had much bigger issues that needed to be addressed
- drafted better outside the top 5 although our lack of investment in scouting is partly to blame IMO.
- kept Nick Paul if you were just give Joseph what Paul was looking for.
- stop over paying on term and dollars on journeyman goalies
- never make the original Matt Murray trade
- replace the pro scouts with a magic 8 ball.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Thinking about potential trade destinations for Debrincat if he doesn't want to extend... I wonder if the Islanders would be a good fit.

They have trouble scoring (22nd in the league last year) and even after adding Horvat, their offense dried up the in the playoffs.

I'd take back Pageau ($5M/3 years left on his deal) and shift him to LW to play with Norris/Batherson (add a defensive presence to that line) or play him at RW with Pinto.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

What would a good GM have done differently heading in to last season?

Make a bold good move and hire one of Cassidy, Montgomery, Deboer as a coach when they were all available last summer.

2 of these guys are in the final 4. The other one set an NHL record in the regular season.

But you know, we wouldn’t give up on our .400 career winning coach because the players liked him!!!!!

 

[SpezDispenser]

I'm starting to come around to the idea of filling the 3rd line with vets who can move up the lineup if need be.

Let Greig start in the AHL or line 4 with Kastelic and Joseph and populate line 3 with solid vets

 

[Hale The Villain]

Thinking about potential trade destinations for Debrincat if he doesn't want to extend... I wonder if the Islanders would be a good fit.

They have trouble scoring (22nd in the league last year) and even after adding Horvat, their offense dried up the in the playoffs.

I'd take back Pageau ($5M/3 years left on his deal) and shift him to LW to play with Norris/Batherson (add a defensive presence to that line) or play him at RW with Pinto.

I was thinking that ship sailed after they acquired Horvat, but then I remembered Lou is 80 years old and doesn't give a rat's ass about the Isles' future.

If DeBrincat is willing to extend there, I could see something based around Bailey (cap dump), 2024 1st and two of Wahlstrom/Dufour/Holmstrom.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I was thinking that ship sailed after they acquired Horvat, but then I remembered Lou is 80 years old and doesn't give a rat's ass about the Isles' future.

If DeBrincat is willing to extend there, I could see something based around Bailey (cap dump), 2024 1st and two of Wahlstrom/Dufour/Holmstrom.

Based on the responses on the Isles forum, they'd do Pageau + for Debrincat. Sounds like a scoring winger is still a major need for them.

Pageau would probably welcome a return here, and he'd add a versatile, defensive-minded forward to a group that needs it.

You could run:

Tkachuk - Stützle - Giroux
Greig - Norris - Batherson
Joseph - Pinto - Pageau

And you open up ~3-3.5M to upgrade the third pair and goaltending.

Plus, if you lose a C to injury, you have a guy who could slide over.

The 2nd line would certainly be less dynamic, but Norris and Batherson will make a combined $12.9M next year. They should be able to carry the load.

Bailey has negative value. I doubt we'd have any interest in him.

 

[Big Muddy]

FWIW…

Team is prepared to hand over the “keys” as of July 1st.

Whomever is the successful bidder might have time to hire a GM or POHO before the draft/free Agency, but I doubt it.

Likely return with Dorion as GM and Smith as Coach on very short leashes next year.

I mentioned this a few months ago. It wasn't well received iirc. I figured something this large would take time.

All you can do is watch and see what happens.

 

[Hale The Villain]

What would a good GM have done differently heading in to last season?

Kept Paul and Brown instead of trading for Joseph and DeBrincat.

Use the resulting cap savings (probably about 3M) and extra assets to add a top 4 D like Marino or Chychrun.

Ideally we would have invested more in the D and in two-way forward depth instead of using all our cap space and assets to load up the top 6. Not a smart way to spend our limited resources.

Obviously not swapping Gustavsson for Talbot would have helped a lot too, but I can at least understand the logic in making that move.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Kept Paul and Brown instead of trading for Joseph and DeBrincat.

Use the resulting cap savings (probably about 3M) and extra assets to add a top 4 D like Marino or Chychrun.

Ideally we would have invested more in the D and in two-way forward depth instead of using all our cap space and assets to load up the top 6. Not a smart way to spend our limited resources.

Obviously not swapping Gustavsson for Talbot would have helped a lot too, but I can at least understand the logic in making that move.

If you don't think this lineup had some relatively easily fixable weaknesses or could stand some improvements then I guess we're good .. We had a 3rd line that should be a 4th line start there. Start the year with an upgrade on D. Identify weaknesses and upgrade. Don't overvalue what you have.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Based on the responses on the Isles forum, they'd do Pageau + for Debrincat. Sounds like a scoring winger is still a major need for them.

Pageau would probably welcome a return here, and he'd add a versatile, defensive-minded forward to a group that needs it.

You could run:

Tkachuk - Stützle - Giroux
Greig - Norris - Batherson
Joseph - Pinto - Pageau

And you open up ~3-3.5M to upgrade the third pair and goaltending.

Plus, if you lose a C to injury, you have a guy who could slide over.

The 2nd line would certainly be less dynamic, but Norris and Batherson will make a combined $12.9M next year. They should be able to carry the load.

Bailey has negative value. I doubt we'd have any interest in him.

I'd welcome Pageau back with open arms, but I'd assume Bailey would be the more likely inclusion.

Isles are overflowing with forward depth, but only on the wings. Severely lack centers in the pipeline, especially after trading Raty. Think they'd like to keep Pageau.

If I'm wrong and Pageau were included I think he'd keep his 3C spot and Pinto would shift to the wing.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I'd welcome Pageau back with open arms, but I'd assume Bailey would be the more likely inclusion.

Isles are overflowing with forward depth, but only on the wings. Severely lack centers in the pipeline, especially after trading Raty. Think they'd like to keep Pageau.

If I'm wrong and Pageau were included I think he'd keep his 3C spot and Pinto would shift to the wing.

From the posts on their forum, a lot of Islander fans are pencilling Pageau in as the 3rd line RWer for next year and have Barzal shifting back to C. That'd give them Barzal - Horvat - Nelson up the middle. They're looking for a scoring winger to pair with Barzal.

I don't think Ottawa would have any interest in Bailey. He's a cap dump to Chicago or buyout candidate. Zero value. Keeping Debrincat for 1 year and losing him for nothing would be smarter.