Speculation: Trade Rumors/Speculation Thread Part IV: Yak Yak Yak Yak

[Kwayry]

Give me an example of when a player was put in the lineup or given more ice time at the expense of a better player and then traded soon after?

Don't you think that it's in the team's best interest to showcase the players they are likely to deal?
After all, it’s much easier to deal a guy on a four game goal scoring streak. Isn't it?

I did a quick google.

Given how the last game between the two teams ended, Carlyle has decided to go with Bernier tonight. It also appears that the Leafs will be going with seven defensemen which to me says that there is either internal competition for that final roster spot, or Carlyle is being instructed to showcase a certain player. Either way, I do not mind having that extra body as it provides the team with the ability to keep fresh legs.

I just don't think it's a myth.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

Just a personal opinion. I think Palmieri tops out as a Dubinsky type of 2nd/3rd tweener. I think Coyle and Zib both top out at legitimate top-6 offensive forwards.

Fair enough, I'd still be very happy if we came out with Palmieri. I think he can help out on the Brass and Pouliott line.

 

[Tawnos]

Don't you think that it's in the team's best interest to showcase the players they are likely to deal?
After all, it’s much easier to deal a guy on a four game goal scoring streak. Isn't it?

I did a quick google.



I just don't think it's a myth.

You might want to actually re-read that quote. Pure speculation without any evidence, even deductive, in proof. I don't know when that quote was from, though.

I think it's in the team's best interest to play their best lineup. A guy on a 4-goal streak is someone who should be in the lineup, whether you want to trade him or not. I don't think that a 4-game stretch is enough to convince a GM to like a player they didn't like already. And I don't think that 4-goal streak will make a GM more likely pull the trigger on a player if he only scored twice in that time.

 

[GAGLine]

Just a personal opinion. I think Palmieri tops out as a Dubinsky type of 2nd/3rd tweener. I think Coyle and Zib both top out at legitimate top-6 offensive forwards.

I'm not sure I'd call Dubinsky a 2nd/3rd tweener. 20 points in 29 games last year. 15 points in 19 games this year. I've watched a few columbus games this year and Dubi has been good. He's their best forward right now and columbus fans are looking at him to be the next captain. It looks like he has finally figured out what he needs to do to be successful.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not sure I'd call Dubinsky a 2nd/3rd tweener. 20 points in 29 games last year. 15 points in 19 games this year. I've watched a few columbus games this year and Dubi has been good. He's their best forward right now and columbus fans are looking at him to be the next captain. It looks like he has finally figured out what he needs to do to be successful.

I'm a huge Dubinsky fan, so don't get me wrong. He's been pretty inconsistent from one stretch to the next, offensively speaking. The problem isn't that sometimes he puts up points and sometimes he doesn't. The problem is that sometimes he does good things in the offensive zone (and puts up points when he does) and sometimes he doesn't do anything positive in the offensive zone. When he's in the latter stage, he's a detriment in the top-6. That being said, maybe he has finally figured it out. I'm not taking what are essentially 3 very short stretches of time (pre-injury last year, post-injury last year, so far this year) and saying that he's figured out the consistency. I hope he has. I really like the player. Prove it first, though.

 

[SA16]

Don't you think that it's in the team's best interest to showcase the players they are likely to deal?
After all, it’s much easier to deal a guy on a four game goal scoring streak. Isn't it?

No because if general managers made their decisions based on four game sample sizes, or seeing a guy in one game, they would not keep their job as a general manager very long.

 

[Dorado*]

Getting away from Torts seems to have been the best thing for him . It doesn't hurt he's playing center over there now .

 

[Kwayry]

You might want to actually re-read that quote. Pure speculation without any evidence, even deductive, in proof. I don't know when that quote was from, though.

I think it's in the team's best interest to play their best lineup. A guy on a 4-goal streak is someone who should be in the lineup, whether you want to trade him or not. I don't think that a 4-game stretch is enough to convince a GM to like a player they didn't like already. And I don't think that 4-goal streak will make a GM more likely pull the trigger on a player if he only scored twice in that time.

The point is it's not a myth, the coach reports to the GM and if the GM feels there is a need to ice player for a deal that will make the team better, I am sure the coach will oblige.
Here is another example.
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/03/26/edmonton-oilers-put-ryan-whitney-back-in-lineup-four-games-before-trade-deadline/

When asked if he thought he was being showcased for the Blues, Whitney, who has been traded once before at the deadline — from Anaheim to the Oilers for Lubo Visnovsky in 2010 – shrugged.

Even if they are not showcasing DZ, Moore played the right side in Columbus, why isn't he playing the right side here? That would be better for the team, wouldn't it?

 

[Kwayry]

No because if general managers made their decisions based on four game sample sizes, or seeing a guy in one game, they would not keep their job as a general manager very long.

That's true, Gainey says hi.

 

[Tawnos]

The point is it's not a myth, the coach reports to the GM and if the GM feels there is a need to ice player for a deal that will make the team better, I am sure the coach will oblige.
Here is another example.
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/03/26/edmonton-oilers-put-ryan-whitney-back-in-lineup-four-games-before-trade-deadline/



Even if they are not showcasing DZ, Moore played the right side in Columbus, why isn't he playing the right side here? That would be better for the team, wouldn't it?

Read the whole article.

(Oilers’ coach Ralph Krueger) steadfastly says Whitney’s back in because he wants better puck-movement 5-on-5 than he saw for the first two periods in Nashville, thinks that’s more important than a big body (i.e. Peckham) against the heavier Blues, firmly says nobody’s (read higher up the food chain) told him who to play and where as it should be for a coach who has to feel confident with his lineup

And you know what? Whitney didn't get dealt anyway. I asked you to show me a correlation between a "showcase" move and an actual trade. I don't think one exists because I don't think it happens. What you have in both cases, so far, is speculation on the part of a journalist, not even based on a "sources say" quote.

As for DZ and Moore, I think that it's not happening because DZ really is the odd-man out here. I don't know how much better it would be to have Moore, who you think is struggling, playing out of position than it is to have DZ playing out of position.

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

MDZ's value right now is on the cusp of being negative but it's still questionable.

That's just, absurd. An asinine thing to day. A clear display of not having the slightest understanding of how GM's value different players.

Yes, there has been confirmed links of reporters on twitter saying his name has been tossed around the NHL recently

I do think he's being shopped around, but not because reporters on twitter. Reporters saw he was scratched any like all reporters they run in various directions so their story gets hits. Rangers brass it tight lipped about the way they conduct trades.

And you guys really think Moore is struggling? Stats aren't everything, I mean that's just me assuming that you're basing it off of stats but I see Moore as a great offensive and defensive addition to the team, even better than DZ.

What has Moore done to show he can replicate MDZ's production? Nothing.

And we don't think Moore is struggling because of stats. He's losing 1-on-1 battles, he gets overpowered down low, he doesn't anticipate plays as they evolve. From a pure defensive POV Moore has a lot of growing to do.

 

[NYR Viper]

With Anaheim acquiring Blacker and having Vatanen in the AHL now, I doubt they are interested in another puck mover.

My bet is still on TB.

Pouliot had great success there last year. I wonder if they would take him back to help with Stamkos out for a bit. Maybe the Rangers keep a small portion of the salary as his contract only lasts for this year.

Del Zotto + Pouliot (300k retained) for Connolly + ______

 

[Kwayry]

Read the whole article.



And you know what? Whitney didn't get dealt anyway. I asked you to show me a correlation between a "showcase" move and an actual trade. I don't think one exists because I don't think it happens. What you have in both cases, so far, is speculation on the part of a journalist, not even based on a "sources say" quote.

As for DZ and Moore, I think that it's not happening because DZ really is the odd-man out here. I don't know how much better it would be to have Moore, who you think is struggling, playing out of position than it is to have DZ playing out of position.

That's true, but I am too lazy to do the leg work. I did the next best thing. Found speculation by journalists, so it's not just fans.

And we don't think Moore is struggling because of stats. He's losing 1-on-1 battles, he gets overpowered down low, he doesn't anticipate plays as they evolve. From a pure defensive POV Moore has a lot of growing to do.

I think Moore should be at 220 lbs to be effective, but he is playing at like 206, he is too light on his skates.

 

[Tawnos]

That's true, but I am too lazy to do the leg work. I did the next best thing. Found speculation by journalists, so it's not just fans.

When it comes to speculation, journalists are fans.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

That's just, absurd. An asinine thing to day. A clear display of not having the slightest understanding of how GM's value different players.

Lolwut? His shots from the blueline are atrocious, he makes multiple flaws in his own end and his passing isn't as effective and clear as it was 2 or 3 years ago. I'm saying he has potential but as of right now, and even last year, his value has gone down.

 

[eco's bones]

Really figuring that Richards will be bought out. He's played well so far this year but the last 3 years of his contract he'll be closing in on 40 and that $6.7 mil cap hit for those years is just a killer. The Richards we had last year very well might be the kind of player we'll see again when he's a bit older. That makes me a little more reluctant to move Brassard at least at this point in time. I'd be buying out Brad. That gives us more room to make decisions on guys like Callahan or Girardi or some other UFA we can sign who will fill a need and fit better under the terms of the current CBA.

 

[Tawnos]

With Anaheim acquiring Blacker and having Vatanen in the AHL now, I doubt they are interested in another puck mover.

My bet is still on TB.

Pouliot had great success there last year. I wonder if they would take him back to help with Stamkos out for a bit. Maybe the Rangers keep a small portion of the salary as his contract only lasts for this year.

Del Zotto + Pouliot (300k retained) for Connolly + ______

According to Bolts fans, they really don't have the need for a player like DZ, as they already have Matt Carle playing a similar role and signed for another 5 years.

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

Lolwut? His shots from the blueline are atrocious, he makes multiple flaws in his own end and his passing isn't as effective and clear as it was 2 or 3 years ago. I'm saying he has potential but as of right now, and even last year, his value has gone down.

He's proven his potential. Just not on a consistent year-to-year basis. He's a 40 point second line dmen. He's 23. He has incredible value.

Look at the trends with dmen. Look at how much GM's value them.

Do some research. There aren't many 40 point dmen in this league.

Assuming DZ has negative value is just an absurd thing to say.

 

[nyr2k2]

Lolwut? His shots from the blueline are atrocious, he makes multiple flaws in his own end and his passing isn't as effective and clear as it was 2 or 3 years ago. I'm saying he has potential but as of right now, and even last year, his value has gone down.

And yet, he's still a 23 year old former first round pick with over 250 games of NHL experience under his belt, who also happens to be on a reasonable contract that leaves him in RFA status. You think a player like that has negative value?

 

[Tawnos]

Assuming DZ has negative value is just an absurd thing to say.

Right now, I would argue that he has negative value to the Rangers, playing out of position on the 3rd pair. Of course, that's why he'd be offered for trade around the league. His value to another team is far, far greater than it is to the Rangers at the moment.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

He's proven his potential. Just not on a consistent year-to-year basis. He's a 40 point second line dmen. He's 23. He has incredible value.

Look at the trends with dmen. Look at how much GM's value them.

Do some research. There aren't many 40 point dmen in this league.

Assuming DZ has negative value is just an absurd thing to say.

I said the biggest thing DZ has going for him is the fact that he is still 23 and that's great but it seems like you have forgotten last season and haven't watched this season. I'M NOT SAYING MDZ HAS NEGATIVE VALUE but at this point people will view it as questionable. I'm saying that if MDZ's trend continues that he WILL have negative value.

You know who had 40 points 2 YEARS AGO and who's value is NEGATIVE? Dennis Wideman. Why? HIS AGE. Kevin Bieksa's play sucks but he had more points than DZ did as well. There has been so many simple defensive mistakes DZ has made in the past years and where he is standing for us right now, he's not needed.

I believe if MDZ was on a team that fit his figure, he'd be helpful as Brassard was for us last year. I never said he was bad or his value was negative I said it was close to be.

For an NHL GM, it is probably QUESTIONABLE.

If you have anymore problems, preach please

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Right now, I would argue that he has negative value to the Rangers, playing out of position on the 3rd pair. Of course, that's why he'd be offered for trade around the league. His value to another team is far, far greater than it is to the Rangers at the moment.

We will likely think differently having to watch Justin Falk for any extended period of time.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

And yet, he's still a 23 year old former first round pick with over 250 games of NHL experience under his belt, who also happens to be on a reasonable contract that leaves him in RFA status. You think a player like that has negative value?

you know who else is a 23 year old former first round pick? Greg Nemisz. Games played really doesnt matter. And an RFA status isn't always a positive thing either.

Way to go. you really didnt prove anything

 

[Kwayry]

I said the biggest thing DZ has going for him is the fact that he is still 23 and that's great but it seems like you have forgotten last season and haven't watched this season. I'M NOT SAYING MDZ HAS NEGATIVE VALUE but at this point people will view it as questionable. I'm saying that if MDZ's trend continues that he WILL have negative value.

What happened last season? I remember he played well when Staal was injured and he was on pace for 38 points.
I also know this about last season, a lot of posts about his missed shots so I did some leg work

Then you are not watching carefully.
Total missed shots
DZ ranked 24th this season at 41 missed shots, just ahead of Shattenkirk's 40 missed shots and behind the following:
PietrAngelo: 57
Buff: 56
Doughty: 55
PK Subban: 42

One more nugget.
Career shot %
Shattenkirk: 6.2
Doughty: 7.1
DZ: 7.2

My point is DZ is not as bad as you guys make him out to be, he is just the favorite whipping boy at the moment.

Do you want to refresh my memory on what he did last season?

 

[Jabroni]

you know who else is a 23 year old former first round pick? Greg Nemisz. Games played really doesnt matter. And an RFA status isn't always a positive thing either.

Way to go. you really didnt prove anything

You really didn't address his question either.