Speculation: Trade Rumors/Speculation Thread Part IV: Yak Yak Yak Yak

[Krams]

you know who else is a 23 year old former first round pick? Greg Nemisz. Games played really doesnt matter. And an RFA status isn't always a positive thing either.

Way to go. you really didnt prove anything

I'd suggest you check yourself. Having really poor argumentation skills and subsequently exuding arrogance is a pretty ****** combination.

Dennis Wideman is a terrible comparison because he's thirty and is an atrocious defenseman. Del Zotto is more than competent when playing at his natural position. Where the **** does Nemisz come into play? Christ, man, Del Zotto doesn't get his value because he's 23, or a former 1st round pick, or because he's put up 40 points as a defenseman, it's the sum of those three characteristics that give him value. Stop looking at these traits in a vacuum.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

You really didn't address his question either.

I did in my previous post.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

you know who else is a 23 year old former first round pick? Greg Nemisz. Games played really doesnt matter. And an RFA status isn't always a positive thing either.

Way to go. you really didnt prove anything

Games do matter, first of all. He wouldn't have that many games played by the age of 23 if he weren't a somewhat valuable player, compared to say, Greg Nemisz, who is a bust and has played 15 games at the NHL level. Del Zotto, on the other hand, has been valuable in 3/4 seasons he's played here. Here's a better stat for you:

114 points in 266 games. For a 23 year old defenseman, those are very solid numbers. And it's not as if he's a liability defensively. He really isn't.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

I'd suggest you check yourself. Having really poor argumentation skills and subsequently exuding arrogance is a pretty ****** combination.

Dennis Wideman is a terrible comparison because he's thirty and is an atrocious defenseman. Del Zotto is more than competent when playing at his natural position. Where the **** does Nemisz come into play? Christ, man, Del Zotto doesn't get his value because he's 23, or a former 1st round pick, or because he's put up 40 points as a defenseman, it's the sum of those three characteristics that give him value Stop looking at these traits in a vacuum.

It's not because these three things at all, but once they're put together it all matters?


People are just misunderstanding what I'm saying and it's kind of funny because I never said Del Zotto was bad... EVER

I said his value is QUESTIONABLE.

 

[nyr2k2]

you know who else is a 23 year old former first round pick? Greg Nemisz. Games played really doesnt matter. And an RFA status isn't always a positive thing either.

Way to go. you really didnt prove anything

Yes, on it's own, being 23 and a former first round pick doesn't matter. Playing in 250 games by age 23 doesn't matter. Being cheap and under contract doesn't matter. Hell, averaging 35 points per 82 games as a defenseman doesn't matter. But that's not the point. I mentioned those things because they're not individual accomplishments from a collective of players--they're a collection of accomplishments from one player. It's the entire package that we're talking about here. His body of work to this point, his contract status, all that stuff together is what creates his value.

You're right, I didn't "prove" anything. Did you? **** no. We're just sharing our opinions. The only way his value can be "proved" is through a trade where we can judge a return.

I mean, you realize Scott Gomez fetched a player and a highly regarded prospect, right? And that Wojtek Wolski netted a third? Ryan Hollweg hurt the team pretty much every shift, and we traded him for a fifth. NHL players have value, even if they're covered in thorns. Del Zotto has a combination of past performance and future potential working in his favor.

Negative value?

It's not because these three things at all, but once they're put together it all matters?


People are just misunderstanding what I'm saying and it's kind of funny because I never said Del Zotto was bad... EVER

I said his value is QUESTIONABLE.

You said it's questionable, bordering on negative. In no way shape or form is it bordering on negative. He could go scoreless the next 10 games while playing -10 hockey and it still wouldn't be negative. Not even close.

You could just acknowledge that you were wrong to say his value was bordering on negative and everyone would probably stop jumping on you.

 

[Kwayry]

Yes, on it's own, being 23 and a former first round pick doesn't matter. Playing in 250 games by age 23 doesn't matter. Being cheap and under contract doesn't matter. Hell, averaging 35 points per 82 games as a defenseman doesn't matter. But that's not the point. I mentioned those things because they're not individual accomplishments from a collective of players--they're a collection of accomplishments from one player. It's the entire package that we're talking about here. His body of work to this point, his contract status, all that stuff together is what creates his value.

You're right, I didn't "prove" anything. Did you? **** no. We're just sharing our opinions. The only way his value can be "proved" is through a trade where we can judge a return.

I mean, you realize Scott Gomez fetched a player and a highly regarded prospect, right? And that Wojtek Wolski netted a third? Ryan Hollweg hurt the team pretty much every shift, and we traded him for a fifth. NHL players have value, even if they're covered in thorns. Del Zotto has a combination of past performance and future potential working in his favor.

Negative value?



You said it's questionable, bordering on negative. In no way shape or form is it bordering on negative. He could go scoreless the next 10 games while playing -10 hockey and it still wouldn't be negative. Not even close.

You could just acknowledge that you were wrong to say his value was bordering on negative and everyone would probably stop jumping on you.

Hope I am doing this correctly.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

Yes, on it's own, being 23 and a former first round pick doesn't matter. Playing in 250 games by age 23 doesn't matter. Being cheap and under contract doesn't matter. Hell, averaging 35 points per 82 games as a defenseman doesn't matter. But that's not the point. I mentioned those things because they're not individual accomplishments from a collective of players--they're a collection of accomplishments from one player. It's the entire package that we're talking about here. His body of work to this point, his contract status, all that stuff together is what creates his value.

You're right, I didn't "prove" anything. Did you? **** no. We're just sharing our opinions. The only way his value can be "proved" is through a trade where we can judge a return.

I mean, you realize Scott Gomez fetched a player and a highly regarded prospect, right? And that Wojtek Wolski netted a third? Ryan Hollweg hurt the team pretty much every shift, and we traded him for a fifth. NHL players have value, even if they're covered in thorns. Del Zotto has a combination of past performance and future potential working in his favor.

Negative value?

I agree, look all I was saying originally that right now if you look at Del Zotto on the Rangers this season, it's difficult to say if he's a positive or negative factor because he's been very back and forth lately. He has great milestones and I respect MDZ alot but I was saying that some people think he's one of the best in the league, others think he's overrated and his milestones are impressive, but he's never been put to the test on how great he can really be on his own.

Does everyone understand now?

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

MDZ's value right now is on the cusp of being negative

I'M NOT SAYING MDZ HAS NEGATIVE VALUE

I honestly can't understand what point you're trying to make any more. . . . .

Games do matter, first of all. He wouldn't have that many games played by the age of 23 if he weren't a somewhat valuable player, compared to say, Greg Nemisz, who is a bust and has played 15 games at the NHL level. Del Zotto, on the other hand, has been valuable in 3/4 seasons he's played here. Here's a better stat for you:

114 points in 266 games. For a 23 year old defenseman, those are very solid numbers. And it's not as if he's a liability defensively. He really isn't.

BB comes through, as usual.

Proof that you don't have to be 40 to know your ****.

 

[DudMan28]

Pretty sure he has taken back his "negative value" comment in just about every post since that first one. Think he meant to say that Del Zotto's value has gone down recently; how could someone have a negative value anyway?

I think Del Zotto's value has gone down as well. Its not all about points per game or how he's played in previous seasons, it's how he is playing now. He makes some questionable plays and most games I find myself saying "Del Zotto, wtf was that". His value is still very high, but it has definitely dropped. Opposing GM's will obviously take notice to the fact that he has been benched for Falk twice this year.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

near being negative = being negative?

 

[Kwayry]

Pretty sure he has taken back his "negative value" comment in just about every post since that first one. Think he meant to say that Del Zotto's value has gone down recently; how could someone have a negative value anyway?

I think Del Zotto's value has gone down as well. Its not all about points per game or how he's played in previous seasons, it's how he is playing now. He makes some questionable plays and most games I find myself saying "Del Zotto, wtf was that". His value is still very high, but it has definitely dropped. Opposing GM's will obviously take notice to the fact that he has been benched for Falk twice this year.

I find myself saying that about Moore a lot this season. DZ not so much.

 

[Krams]

near being negative = being negative?

To quote 2k2, because I guess you missed it:

YIn no way shape or form is it bordering on negative. He could go scoreless the next 10 games while playing -10 hockey and it still wouldn't be negative. Not even close.

You could just acknowledge that you were wrong to say his value was bordering on negative and everyone would probably stop jumping on you.

 

[DudMan28]

I find myself saying that about Moore a lot this season. DZ not so much.

Moore is a whole different story. His biggest problem is that he over-values his skating ability. He tries to out skate everybody instead of making the easy play. Once he realizes when to use his skating he will be a much better player.

Both of them have been pretty mediocre. Moore has been much better at jumping into the play compared to Del Zotto. For a guy who is regarded as an offensive defenseman, DZ hasn't done much to show it. Terrible on the power play and rarely making good passes from his own end really drop his value as a PMD. He is still a very serviceable top-4 D, and maybe on the left side he would be better. He has been good defensively, not great. The two of them tend to get pinned in there zone alot. Maybe Del Zotto's fault, maybe its Moore fault. As of right now neither have really impressed me this season.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

To quote 2k2, because I guess you missed it:

Can you read my quote where I basically said that I actually DONT think he has negative value and NEVER SAID HE DID. All I meant was that people think he's a top 20 defensemen and others think he's overrated but overall I'm a believer of MDZ. I just dont think he's been doing well RECENTLY, not the SPAN OF HIS ENTIRE ****ING CAREER.

you all are misinterpreting me and if you just read what I'm saying you'd understand that.

ON THE CUSP OF BEING NEGATIVE AND BEING NEGATIVE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

near being negative = being negative?

On the cusp of being negative - MDZ's might net you a late round pick in a trade.

Negative value - It will cost you assets to move MDZ.

You're way off. Just admit you said something foolish and move on. The fact that you're trying to argue and defend what you said is like trying to swim in quicksand.

 

[NYR Viper]

I know TB fans may say they don't need another Carle but that's a fallacy. If that's the case, why draft Koekoek?

Minnesota is intriguing with their young forwards and with Koivu, Parise and Pomonville signed long term already maybe they see that as an internal strength?

Edmonton is a good fit on paper but I doubt they move anyone of value.

Ottawa is another good fit for a player like MDZ. They have Karlsson and then Methot, Cowen, Gryba and Phillips. Wiercioch is overrated and has been in and out of the lineup.

Anaheim just acquired a young puck mover in Blacker who has underachieved. They also have Fowler and Vatanen in the AHL. I don't see the fit.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

On the cusp of being negative - MDZ's might net you a late round pick in a trade.

Negative value - It will cost you assets to move MDZ.

You're way off. Just admit you said something foolish and move on. The fact that you're trying to argue and defend what you said is like trying to swim in quicksand.

Whatever. Can I just leave it as I am not impressed by DZs play this season and end it? It's all I've been trying to say.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

I'd really like to get back to talking about possibilities of players we could receive, that's what the thread was intended for

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

ON THE CUSP OF BEING NEGATIVE AND BEING NEGATIVE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Tell me the difference with MDZ's value if he:

Is on the cusp of having negative value

vs

Having negative value.

Use a draft pick as an example.

 

[Jabroni]

I did in my previous post.

Just saw it now, my apologies.

 

[Boom Boom Geoffrion*]

Whatever. Can I just leave it as I am not impressed by DZs play this season and end it? It's all I've been trying to say.

I don't think any Rangers fan is. But that doesn't mean MDZ is on the cusp of having negative value, which is the point we're all trying to make.

 

[NYR Viper]

I wonder if Florida is another possibility. Bjugstad + or Howden (who played with McIlrath in juniors), maybe they liked him? Shore? They have a good group of young future NHL forwards.

Matthias would be a good addition as well.

MDZ for Shore + Matthias? Matthias signed for this year and next.

Both Shore and Howden play a power forward game.

 

[Anthony Eclair]

Tell me the difference with MDZ's value if he:

Is on the cusp of having negative value

vs

Having negative value.

Use a draft pick as an example.

This thread was originally discussing the players we could get from a trade with DZ straight up. If his value was positive we could receive a better deal than if it was negative. I said as of right now it is on the cusp of being negative (referring to this season) because I have not been impressed with him. I see why you guys were trying to tell me his milestones as a counter example but I already know about it. All I was trying to say in my original post was that his trade value would be higher if his play has been better this year.

I don't know how I'm supposed to use a draft pick as an example?

 

[Anthony Eclair]

I don't think any Rangers fan is. But that doesn't mean MDZ is on the cusp of having negative value, which is the point we're all trying to make.

I suppose so.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

They have something in common: both are monumentally ridiculous stands to take regarding Dz's value, considering all tangible evidence points in the opposite corner.

Can you read my quote where I basically said that I actually DONT think he has negative value and NEVER SAID HE DID. All I meant was that people think he's a top 20 defensemen and others think he's overrated but overall I'm a believer of MDZ. I just dont think he's been doing well RECENTLY, not the SPAN OF HIS ENTIRE ****ING CAREER.

you all are misinterpreting me and if you just read what I'm saying you'd understand that.

ON THE CUSP OF BEING NEGATIVE AND BEING NEGATIVE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.