Speculation: Trade Rumors/Speculation Thread Part III - 11/11 Yakupov willing to be moved

[member 116805]

The point isn't that players can opt to go to KHL. It's that they breach their contracts when they are unhappy and that league condones and even promotes them to do that.

It's the NHL's problem if they are leaving when their contracts are up and willingly choose to do so. It's the players problem if the coaching staff pushes them and they leave because they can't handle it.

But it is. Because pre KHL there was nowhere to go. Now there is, so the KHL has become a bargaining point for the players in the NHL.
Yes, there is a no breach agreement but everyone obviously know that is just bs and that its not really worth the ink its written in.
The players have more options now, not only the Russian ones, but all players.

 

[StepansLabyrinth]

The point isn't that players can opt to go to KHL. It's that they breach their contracts when they are unhappy and that league condones and even promotes them to do that.

It's the NHL's problem if they are leaving when their contracts are up and willingly choose to do so. It's the players problem if the coaching staff pushes them and they leave because they can't handle it.

Exactly. It's perfectly fine for a player to want to go and play for another team, no matter the country, when their contract is through. The problem is voiding the contract to leave and play elsewhere. The leagues need to do some work in order to patch that up. In soccer, that doesn't happen and, if it did, there would probably be some FIFA sanctions against the team helping the player breach his contract. A governing body like FIFA really doesn't exist for hockey.

There are some tricky things like player control that make things convoluted, stemming from the draft. Not sure how things could change but it's pretty much the Wild West between leagues.

Any person signing a contract should follow through. Teams can't just breach a players contract and it's no more justified for players to do it, either.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

But it is. Because pre KHL there was nowhere to go. Now there is, so the KHL has become a bargaining point for the players in the NHL.
Yes, there is a no breach agreement but everyone obviously know that is just bs and that its not really worth the ink its written in.
The players have more options now, not only the Russian ones, but all players.

My point isn't singling out Russian players. KHL is playing by a set of rules found absolutely no where.

You can't commit to something for years and then 2 months in after you didn't realize that it would be hard you quit. The leagues need to promote responsibility. Now if Russian/European players weren't to be involved in the draft and became free agents and were able to choose which team they wanted to go to, that would help quell these standoffs. But KHL harboring players that are irresponsible and immature is idiotic.

 

[offdacrossbar]

if any of you even remotely understood exactly why many russians return home to play in the K, there wouldnt be so much whining about it.

the olympics will just make it worse. but may help people understand better.

russians are not unlike canadians or swedes or american kids. country first.

when playing for your country in the olympics, country trumps any allegiances to any nhl team or teammates. it just does.

understand that and you will better understand why they go home to play for country, pay little to no taxes, be with family- many to most of which DO NOT come here when they do, and to the complete adulation of the home crowds.

imagine if american kids had to play in europe but had a chance to come back here and play in a very competitive league with very good players and be with family again. add to that- lets say- a flat 15% tax on income rather than the progressive and oppressive euro taxes. would you fault them for doing so ?

thats why they go home.

 

[member 116805]

Yes, but do they only aspire to get to the KHL? I would find it hard to believe that there are kids out there dreaming about playing pro hockey someday and thinking, "Someday I want to play in the KHL, that's good enough for me." Maybe the kids who don't know what the NHL is.

Also if what you say is true, why don't we see players of other European nationalities throwing fits, demanding trades, and using the KHL as leverage? Right now it seems to be a uniquely Russian thing and I think it has much less to do with their work ethic or personalities, and much more to do with the appeal of the KHL to people from Russia.

Just my two cents.

You might not see them "throwing fits" etc, but you will see more and more players from Europe playing in the KHL instead of NHL. They choose finesse instead of grinding. AV instead of Torts to put it in familiar terms.
An example, Norwegian forward Patrick Thoresen. Ex Flyer third liner, ex Oiler third liner (most known for blocking a slapshot with his balls).
Norways biggest hockey star, way bigger than Zuccarello.
He plays on SKAs first line, above Kovalchuck who is on the 2nd.
In 2013 hockey is big other places than in the NHL. There is competition.

 

[Ail]

You might not see them "throwing fits" etc, but you will see more and more players from Europe playing in the KHL instead of NHL. They choose finesse instead of grinding. AV instead of Torts to put it in familiar terms.
An example, Norwegian forward Patrick Thoresen. Ex Flyer third liner, ex Oiler third liner (most known for blocking a slapshot with his balls).
Norways biggest hockey star, way bigger than Zuccarello.
He plays on SKAs first line, above Kovalchuck who is on the 2nd.
In 2013 hockey is big other places than in the NHL. There is competition.

I'm not disagreeing with this, I realize the KHL has huge appeal to players who are either going to be marginal in the NHL, or prefer to play closer to home for more money.

 

[Ail]

if any of you even remotely understood exactly why many russians return home to play in the K, there wouldnt be so much whining about it.

the olympics will just make it worse. but may help people understand better.

russians are not unlike canadians or swedes or american kids. country first.

when playing for your country in the olympics, country trumps any allegiances to any nhl team or teammates. it just does.

understand that and you will better understand why they go home to play for country, pay little to no taxes, be with family- many to most of which DO NOT come here when they do, and to the complete adulation of the home crowds.

imagine if american kids had to play in europe but had a chance to come back here and play in a very competitive league with very good players and be with family again. add to that- lets say- a flat 15% tax on income rather than the progressive and oppressive euro taxes. would you fault them for doing so ?

thats why they go home.

I don't think this is lost on anyone here, and it's certainly not lost on these young Russian players. Which is exactly my point.

 

[NYRKindms]

Exactly. It's perfectly fine for a player to want to go and play for another team, no matter the country, when their contract is through. The problem is voiding the contract to leave and play elsewhere. The leagues need to do some work in order to patch that up. In soccer, that doesn't happen and, if it did, there would probably be some FIFA sanctions against the team helping the player breach his contract. A governing body like FIFA really doesn't exist for hockey.

There are some tricky things like player control that make things convoluted, stemming from the draft. Not sure how things could change but it's pretty much the Wild West between leagues.

Any person signing a contract should follow through. Teams can't just breach a players contract and it's no more justified for players to do it, either.

Do NHL teams not have a clause in the contracts for breech ? Where the financial implications of breaking the legal contract would be severe ? Or is it just that $ is impossible to get once the player skips to Russia? I would think that the nhlpa could step in and help with this. They stand just as much to lose in the long run. Perhaps the union being on the hook for contract breech $$ out of union dues etc

 

[member 116805]

I'm not disagreeing with this, I realize the KHL has huge appeal to players who are either going to be marginal in the NHL, or prefer to play closer to home for more money.

See that's the thing. The marginal argument does not really apply anymore, because players now chose KHL because of other reasons. NHL has a challenge to stay the most interesting league, and to keep attracting the best players. Because money in the NHL is not the best anymore

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

if any of you even remotely understood exactly why many russians return home to play in the K, there wouldnt be so much whining about it.

the olympics will just make it worse. but may help people understand better.

russians are not unlike canadians or swedes or american kids. country first.

when playing for your country in the olympics, country trumps any allegiances to any nhl team or teammates. it just does.

understand that and you will better understand why they go home to play for country, pay little to no taxes, be with family- many to most of which DO NOT come here when they do, and to the complete adulation of the home crowds.

imagine if american kids had to play in europe but had a chance to come back here and play in a very competitive league with very good players and be with family again. add to that- lets say- a flat 15% tax on income rather than the progressive and oppressive euro taxes. would you fault them for doing so ?

thats why they go home.

That's all well and good. Still doesn't explain why some players go out of their way to sign an NHL contract only to wipe their ass with it the second they aren't happy

 

[member 116805]

Do NHL teams not have a clause in the contracts for breech ? Where the financial implications of breaking the legal contract would be severe ? Or is it just that $ is impossible to get once the player skips to Russia? I would think that the nhlpa could step in and help with this. They stand just as much to lose in the long run. Perhaps the union being on the hook for contract breech $$ out of union dues etc

There is a non breach agreement with the IIHF. Goes both ways between NHL and KHL

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

if any of you even remotely understood exactly why many russians return home to play in the K, there wouldnt be so much whining about it.

the olympics will just make it worse. but may help people understand better.

russians are not unlike canadians or swedes or american kids. country first.

when playing for your country in the olympics, country trumps any allegiances to any nhl team or teammates. it just does.

understand that and you will better understand why they go home to play for country, pay little to no taxes, be with family- many to most of which DO NOT come here when they do, and to the complete adulation of the home crowds.

imagine if american kids had to play in europe but had a chance to come back here and play in a very competitive league with very good players and be with family again. add to that- lets say- a flat 15% tax on income rather than the progressive and oppressive euro taxes. would you fault them for doing so ?

thats why they go home.

No that wouldn't stop the whining or even reduce it. The point is if they want to remain in Russia they should remain in Russia. Don't sign a contract somewhere and then leave it midway through because you didn't know what you were getting yourself into.

Ignorance is not an excuse. Their agents and families have the responsibility of telling them what to realistically expect. It will be a hard transition and they'll have to work just as hard as they did in Russia, if not harder. If they aren't ready for that they shouldn't be allowed to sign contracts for longer than a year.

 

[Ail]

if any of you even remotely understood exactly why many russians return home to play in the K, there wouldnt be so much whining about it.

Also it's not really whining as much as expressing concern when trading for one of these potential flight risks. I don't care, or blame these kids for doing what they are doing, but don't expect me to be behind the team I route for signing them to big contracts, and most certainly not trading away valuable assets to acquire them.

Again, gambling is rarely in favor of the gambler.

 

[Ail]

See that's the thing. The marginal argument does not really apply anymore, because players now chose KHL because of other reasons. NHL has a challenge to stay the most interesting league, and to keep attracting the best players. Because money in the NHL is not the best anymore

It still applies. I'm not going to throw out arbitrary percentiles, but a large portion of the KHL rosters would be marginal players in the NHL, for several reasons. Kovalchuk and maybe Radulov are the only real arguments you can make of guys who legitimately choose the KHL over the NHL but had all the skill to be great players in the NHL regardless.

 

[offdacrossbar]

See that's the thing. The marginal argument does not really apply anymore, because players now chose KHL because of other reasons. NHL has a challenge to stay the most interesting league, and to keep attracting the best players. Because money in the NHL is not the best anymore

the K is no longer the nhls *****

real inroads have been made culling some of the best euro players and making that league more of a A1 vs A2 argument now. its no longer a "step down". its more than competitive.

if you watch KHL games now, they are very entertaining, high energy end to end offensive hockey with TONS of offense. its an enjoyable brand of hockey. kinda like a the anti trap nhl. defensively its not the nhl, admittedly, but thats not a bad thing.

once you watch a few games, you understand why players WANT to play there rather than HAVE to play there. lots of creativity and dangling. not so much grabbing and holding. lets players play and makes hockey fun.

its becoming a FIRST choice and will continue that way.... thats troubling for the NHL.

 

[member 116805]

It still applies. I'm not going to throw out arbitrary percentiles, but a large portion of the KHL rosters would be marginal players in the NHL, for several reasons. Kovalchuk and maybe Radulov are the only real arguments you can make of guys who legitimately choose the KHL over the NHL but had all the skill to be great players in the NHL regardless.

Marginal for the style played in the NHL. As I said the KHL focuses way more on finesse and skill. Different animals, KHL way more open hockey.

 

[offdacrossbar]

No that wouldn't stop the whining or even reduce it. The point is if they want to remain in Russia they should remain in Russia. Don't sign a contract somewhere and then leave it midway through because you didn't know what you were getting yourself into.

Ignorance is not an excuse. Their agents and families have the responsibility of telling them what to realistically expect. It will be a hard transition and they'll have to work just as hard as they did in Russia, if not harder. If they aren't ready for that they shouldn't be allowed to sign contracts for longer than a year.

we agree. breaking a contract isnt cool. not a fan of that.

my point is why they return to play there. its more than many people understand.

if you sign a deal here, fulfill that deal. dont bolt and break that deal. i lose respect for any player that does that regardless of where they are from. once the deal is done, and the next contract is or isnt offered, thats when you make the decision to leave.

problem is, they CAN hold out and/or bolt. and when they do, they should never be allowed to return to this league. most dont. they stay there very happy and finish their careers.

 

[member 116805]

the K is no longer the nhls *****

real inroads have been made culling some of the best euro players and making that league more of a A1 vs A2 argument now. its no longer a "step down". its more than competitive.

if you watch KHL games now, they are very entertaining, high energy end to end offensive hockey with TONS of offense. its an enjoyable brand of hockey. kinda like a the anti trap nhl. defensively its not the nhl, admittedly, but thats not a bad thing.

once you watch a few games, you understand why players WANT to play there rather than HAVE to play there. lots of creativity and dangling. not so much grabbing and holding. lets players play and makes hockey fun.

its becoming a FIRST choice and will continue that way.... thats troubling for the NHL.

See that's what im saying. Quick hockey, fun hockey and tons of real talent.
Now that the money is there too, no reason not to chose KHL

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

See that's what im saying. Quick hockey, fun hockey and tons of real talent.
Now that the money is there too, no reason not to chose KHL

The notion that there is big-time money in the KHL is a sketchy one. Big time players can get big contracts, but the cap is about a third of the NHL.

...and I wont even get into the accommodations, but lets just say no NHL player has ever feared for their life while stepping into a flight to another city.

 

[Fitzy]

The strong structure of the NHL and America including the taxes, salary cap and other issues mean Russia, with proper investment can outbid for certain players.

But there are a myriad of other issues. Russia's homicide rate is 3x that of US and 8x that of Canada. There was the plane accident, and Cherepanov's dead-battery defibrillator. Have you ever driven in Russia? The police are almost all in the pockets of the wealthy.

In short, there are pros and cons to living in such a place.

 

[member 116805]

The notion that there is big-time money in the KHL is a sketchy one. Big time players can get big contracts, but the cap is about a third of the NHL.

...and I wont even get into the accommodations, but lets just say no NHL player has ever feared for their life while stepping into a flight to another city.

But the money is tax free.
Zucc as an example made 3 times (before tax) what he is making now.
For foreign players the earings are even bigger.
Using the Lokomotiv tragedy as an argument.. yeah ok.
And im sure there are plenty of NHL players that are scared of flying

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

But the money is tax free.
Zucc as an example made 3 times (before tax) what he is making now.
For foreign players the earings are even bigger.
Using the Lokomotiv tragedy as an argument.. yeah ok.

I used accommodations in general, something some tax revenue would improve. Quite the conundrum.

 

[member 116805]

I used accommodations in general, something some tax revenue would improve. Quite the conundrum.

No you said that players feared for their lifes flying.
Lots of people are scared of flying, so that's fair enough

 

[BBKers]

The strong structure of the NHL and America including the taxes, salary cap and other issues mean Russia, with proper investment can outbid for certain players.

But there are a myriad of other issues. Russia's homicide rate is 3x that of US and 8x that of Canada. There was the plane accident, and Cherepanov's dead-battery defibrillator. Have you ever driven in Russia? The police are almost all in the pockets of the wealthy.

In short, there are pros and cons to living in such a place.

Not at all saying you are wrong in your preference of country.
However (what this now has to do with hockey) the homicide rate is slightly twice that of the US in Russia. Not 3 times (4.7 vs 10.2). See here
The overall rate of criminality is somewhat higher in the US than in Russia. See here
The police thing you cited is maybe true, but otoh the politicians are the ones in the pockets of the wealthy in the US instead.
Russian girls are hotter. Much
But I would myself also rather live in US over Russia.
But there are much better alternatives than both these places these days... maybe just not for hockey players

 

[offdacrossbar]

The strong structure of the NHL and America including the taxes, salary cap and other issues mean Russia, with proper investment can outbid for certain players.

But there are a myriad of other issues. Russia's homicide rate is 3x that of US and 8x that of Canada. There was the plane accident, and Cherepanov's dead-battery defibrillator. Have you ever driven in Russia? The police are almost all in the pockets of the wealthy.

In short, there are pros and cons to living in such a place.

correct.

driving there is pure terror. really. they just do anything they want. the country is run by mobsters. graft is everywhere. the flying thing isnt the same. i would not want to fly regularly on russian aircraft.

and dont get me started on the wealthy vs the commoners thing. youre right. this country is headed that way bigtime.

but remember this, these guys are royalty for the most part. even non superstars do very well. they make enough money to live a very westernized life style and that is available in russia if you have cash.